I'm torn on Barry Bonds

[JonLP24]

As an Arizona State fan I feel like I should be campaigning for Barry to be in the hall of fame. Then comes these steroid allegations and it brings me down. :cry: However not once did he piss hot for steroids and you know steroids has nothing to do with hand-eye-coordination. Also I don't believe he has ever done 'roids.

[cboy4]

1. Unlike this guy

[Forkboy]

2. They both did.

Only blind idiots think the two are any different.

[JonLP24]

3. That is true

However since he didn't go play for Arizona State or any team I care for I don't care about him. :D

[Forkboy]

4. I think anyone with a knowledge of body building and body mass can see what went on with Barry.

I lived with professional bodybuilders for three years (one even won a contest on ESPN). One did steroids and the other didn't. Your head does NOT gain size through a regular regimen of nutrition, weight lifting, etc. It just doesn't.

As for the hand eye coordination, as someone rightly pointed out to me, it does increase your bat speed, making one more likely to get hits. He was already a great hitter to start with, so the eye hand coordination was good already. The increased bat speed does make a big difference.

I can totally understand the urge to defend a home town guy. I was severely tested when news of Rodney Harrison using them came out. He was always a fave of mine, but he knew they were wrong and he still used them. At some point you have to see through the hometown blinders.

[JonLP24]

5. Not fair to compare a much younger photo

To a recent photo and compare the size. He's not really a hometown guy, he grew up in San Carlos, CA :D

As far as steroids, he said he used a cream for arthritis and I believe him. :P

Edit, how was he supposed to know steroids are inside when his bones are aching?

[Forkboy]

6. It most certainly is fair.

That kind of muscle gain at his age is supremely rare. He admitted he did them, just that he didn't know what they were. And leave Arthur Ritis out of this. :D

how was he supposed to know steroids are inside when his bones are aching?

He either knew or is one of the stupidest people to walk the Earth. Arthritus affects lots of people, but they don't go to Balco for a cure. :P

[JonLP24]

7. But with a strict regiment in bodybuilding

it can be done.

He either knew or is one of the stupidest people to walk the Earth. Arthritus affects lots of people, but they don't go to Balco for a cure

First off :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Second of all he didn't go to BALCO, BALCO came to him, Greg Anderson his trainer gave him a cream and told Bonds it was for his achy joints. How was Bonds supposed to know BALCO was bad news as well as his trainer? Huh? Huh? :P

[Forkboy]

8. It can be done, but it's 1 in a million.

Seriously, talk to professional bodybuilders. It's extremely rare.

Second of all he didn't go to BALCO, BALCO came to him, Greg Anderson his trainer gave him a cream and told Bonds it was for his achy joints. How was Bonds supposed to know BALCO was bad news as well as his trainer?

Because as a professional he should be aware of the rules of baseball, and he should be doubly aware of what he puts in his body, out of pure self interest if nothing else. I played hockey at a minor league level and I knew EVERYTHING I put into my body, every cream I used on achy joints, every cortizone shot into my knees, etc. Maybe Bonds didn't know what Anderson was involved in, but that stretches incredulity to a new level to be honest.

[cboy4]

9. Here you should frame this. It's the judge throwing the prosecution's

case out the window.

[Forkboy]

11. I really wouldn't mind if it was thrown out.

I've told you before that I thought it never should have come this far. I don't want to see Bonds in jail over something this unimportant in the grand scheme of things. I think public shame and humiliation is more than enough. It's why McGwire never shows his face anymore, it's why Sosa is considered a joke, and why A-Roid is hated throughout the League (and even by some on his own team, I'd wager).

[JonLP24]

14. In all seriousness, he may would have avoided prison time if convicted

of perjury.

SAN FRANCISCO — Tammy Thomas, the former elite cyclist who was convicted in April of making false statements to a grand jury in connection with the Balco investigation, will not serve time in prison, an encouraging sign for the former Giants slugger Barry Bonds, who faces similar charges.

Thomas was sentenced to six months’ house arrest and five years’ probation by United States District Judge Susan Illston on Friday at the federal courthouse here. Thomas’s case had been closely watched by lawyers for Bonds, who faces charges of perjury and obstruction of justice as a result of his grand jury testimony in which he, too, denied using steroids.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/sports/othersports/11doping.html?_r=1

[Forkboy]

15. I hope he doesn't go to jail.

Perjury is a serious crime and all, but I just can't put this in the same league as what Republicans have done daily, over and over again. This isn't a war based on lies, it isn't denying whole groups of people equal rights, it's a baseball player who may or may not have done steroids.

Now, if we find out Cam Neely did steroids I'm killing myself (pictures cboy and Upton madly scrambling to find evidence of Neely doing them...)

[cboy4]

18. Forkboy making sense.

I don't know what to believe anymore. :crazy:

[Forkboy]

21. Now it's your turn.

[cboy4]

25. Oh my .. Someone sure got big!

[Forkboy]

28. You'll have to do waaaay better than that.

Thanks for proving me right about you and Upton scrambling though. :rofl:

If the Sharks had Neely they might have won a series.

[cboy4]

33. Well wait a minute. Isn't that what you do with Bonds? Post his

little league photo side by side his pro photo?

Of course so.

[Forkboy]

34. If you can show me the corresponding cloud that Neely is under you'll have a point.

But as you can't you're just a fuckface with nothing.

[JonLP24]

38. Game. Set. Match.

<snip>
It puts him in the team record book -- and brings his teammates up on the bench, chanting, "Steroids, steroids."

That's how the Bruins greeted Cam Neely Sunday night in Chicago as he was racking up a hat trick and four assists in a rather awesome performance.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8084117.html

Big enough cloud for you?

[Forkboy]

39. You left out this part...

They might have chanted it a second time, for defenseman Glen Wesley, who had six points, a goal and five assists -- except neither Wesley nor anybody else knew he was en route to his biggest night in the National Hockey League.

Yeah, Glen Wussley is guilty, too.

Like I told cboy, you're going to have to do waaaaaaaay better than that. If you think this is comparable than you're a bigger bozo than I previously credited you with being. :P

[JonLP24]

40. But they didn't, if Wessley was using steroids they would chant it

But considering the increase in size and the fact his teammates knew he was on steroids they chanted it.

5. H.R.2516 : To establish standards for the testing of prohibited substances and methods for certain professional baseball, basketball, football, and hockey players.
6/3/2005

Posted 6/8/2005 4:21 PM
Bruins' Cam Neely elected to Hockey Hall of Fame
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/2005-06-08-hall-of-fame_x.htm

Coincidence they go after hockey players 5 days apart during the same year he gets elected into the hall of fame? I think not.

Roid rage?


-sorry I took so long. Collecting evidence. :P

Edited to add I intentionally left stuff out in the post you replied to, also if you can't tell this is all tounge-in-cheek

[Forkboy]

41. LOL

:)

[JonLP24]

23. His legal problems seem to be at a stalemate at this point

However even if he lied about the cream I don't think he should go to prison either. Probation should be just enough.

[Forkboy]

24. I wouldn't even give him probation.

He'll either be vindicated or the public will never take him seriously again. I can live with either one. :)

[JonLP24]

27. I agree

If anything were to happen nothing more then probation but in the big scheme of things nothing should happen when those who sanctioned torture are free and 1/4th of the country still loves them. Can't say the same about Bonds.

[Forkboy]

30. If Selig and Fehr had any courage of conviction they would have tried to deal with this.

It was their inaction that led to the government getting involved. Selig tried to bury his head in the sand and hope no one would notice the obscene amount of home runs being hit all of a sudden. In the end it's the players that bear the responsibility, but Selig and Co let it go way too long because the home runs were drawing in the crowds. Integrity of the game be damned.

[JonLP24]

37. He does share some responsibility, not to the extent of the players of course

Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa should have been a sign, then Barry Bonds 73 it all really did seem unnatural. Now it seems unlikely under the new policies that any player has a real shot at 73 but Pujols is at 32 so far this year.

[JonLP24]

12. I don't need anecdotal evidence from bodybuilders

Anecdotal evidence from Barry Bonds is good enough for me.

I'm sure he knows the rules of baseball which is why he made sure to touch all the bases when he hit 762 home runs :P

he should be doubly aware of what he puts in his body, out of pure self interest if nothing else.

Did you read everything when you put ranch on your last salad? Did you know it contained cultured dextrose?

Maybe Bonds didn't know what Anderson was involved in, but that stretches incredulity to a new level to be honest.

Neither did anyone until Anderson was indicted.

[Forkboy]

13. You forgot the asterisk after 762 home runs.

Did you read everything when you put ranch on your last salad? Did you know it contained cultured dextrose?

If it was on the list of substances not allowed then you're damn right I knew it.

[JonLP24]

16. Nope. No asterisk.

From the Official Baseball History Site
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_hr1.shtml

Roger Maris once had an asterisk and we all know how that turned out. :P

[Forkboy]

19. Tell it to the Hall of Fame.

[cboy4]

26. What a disgrace and I agree with Jim Leyland.

Detroit Tigers manager Jim Leyland was not a fan of the decision.

"I disagree with that totally, because I don't think there should be an asterisk on it," said Leyland, Bonds' first skipper with the Pittsburgh Pirates.

Leyland later agreed with a columnist, who said he thought the Hall of Fame was disrespecting Bonds for accepting the ball with the asterisk on it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3036756

[JonLP24]

29. I agree with that

That was a shitty thing to do considering Bonds hasn't been guilty of steroid use. It's just speculation at this point.

[Forkboy]

32. I agree. It shouldn't have been accepted at all.

[flvegan]

10. Not true on the hand-eye coordination, at least not in this case.

Some steroids can increase certain "talents of focus" such as hitting a baseball or finding a strike zone. Some of them seem to provide an edge in increasing whatever you do really well. A NASCAR driver might have more focus and be more aggressive, a chess champ might think "faster."

I'm not saying that Bonds took dope knowingly or otherwise. Just setting that bit of the OP straight.

[JonLP24]

20. I'm sure you're correct

I pulled the hand-eye-cordination statement out of my ass without researching it but it is a line of defense I've heard on sports debate shows so I used it.

My post is somewhat sarcasm but I've been a fan of Bonds before these allegations because he once did play for Arizona State so it is somewhat serious but not very much.

I'm also playing devil's advocate because much of the evidence is circumstancial and there is no smoking gun of him knowingly using steroids that I know of. I'm also playing devil's advocate with a bit of sarcasm so take all my posts in this thread with a grain of salt.

[Forkboy]

22. It's been nice discussing this with someone who isn't an idiot.

:D

[flvegan]

31. I took much of this

as sort of tongue-in-cheek, or at least not terribly serious based on some of your responses.

[cboy4]

35. Listen to Flvegan. He is very knowledgeable about personal training

and someone I trust what he's talking about. :)

[Forkboy]

36. You don't take me seriously? You bastard!

:rofl:

[El Supremo]

17. Oh he's guilty. The real issue is that so are about half of all the other players.

[BulletproofLandshark]

42. I don't think Bonds should be banned from the Hall.

But I also think he shouldn't get in until Pete Rose does.

[JonLP24]

43. Rose will never get in

According to the Hall's rules, players may appear on the ballot for only 15 years, beginning 5 years after they retire. If he wasn't on the list he could've been on the ballot from 1992-2006. Also the Veterans Committee barred players from the list from being open to consideration in 2008.

[cboy4]

44. Well I don't agree with your conditions, but I fiercely support Rose

being in the Hall.

I've been very consistent with my position in that regard.