NFL Hall of Famers announced!

[NJ Democrats]

They are Troy Akiman, Reggie White, Harry Carson! Yes, Harry Carson finally got it!, Warren moon, John Madden (as a coach) and Rayfield Wright.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2318924

[fishwax]

1. gary zimmerman should have gotten in

oh well, maybe next year.

Congrats to those who made it ... a worthy class :applause:

[Robeson]

13. Agreed.

[hasbro]

19. Who do the Broncos have to fuck to get players in Canton

Gradishar, Little, Taylor, tombstone?

The Bucs Squawks, Falcons and Saints beat us to the hall.

[BulletproofLandshark]

2. And Art Monk gets robbed again...

Yeah, I'm a 'Skins homer,but that Monk isn't in the HOF is a damn travesty. I'd like to see the vote taken out of the hands of non-football people and give to players, coaches, scouts, etc. His induction is being held back by a couple of self-important clowns (Paul Zimmerman and Peter King) that have some kind of axe to grind against Art Monk. I'm not saying the guys that got voted in this year didn't deserve to get in, because they all did. But if guys like Charlie Joiner and Steve Largent are HOFers, then Monk is too.

[NJ Democrats]

4. Yeah, I agree

I'm a Giants fan, but Monk should be in.

[Captain Hilts]

10. Another vote for Monk here. And Harry Carson really deserves it. nt

[GOPisEvil]

3. It's about time for Rayfield Wright. Good for Carson, too. Monk, robbed!

Art Monk gets NO LOVE.

[bigwillq]

5. I'm so happy for Carson!

:bounce:

[Lefty48197]

6. Reggie! Reggie! Reggie!

The Pack hasn't been the same since you and Gilbert Brown left. RIP my friend.

[DaveinMD]

7. Its about time Carson got in

I like Madden getting in as well. A very underrated coach.

[imouttahere]

8. Oh, he wasn't underrated in the 70's!

His Raiders teams won a Super Bowl and played in 5 consecutive AFC Championship Games. Should have played in 6 straight, but for the immaculate non-reception. One of the All-Time greats.

[Awsi Dooger]

9. I guess I disagree with everybody

IMO this is the worst class in memory. Rayfield Wright was a big stiff tackle who had a big name but wasn't Hall of Fame caliber. Likewise, Harry Carson was a damn good player and very tough, fitting with the mold of that Giants era, but if you look at the Canton middle linebackers who preceeded him, Carson simply isn't in their class or close to it, with the exception of Nick Buoniconti.

Then you've got John Madden. Give me a break. His one championship was the biggest theft I've ever seen. In fact, that's the only title I refuse to acknowledge in the decades I've been old enough to follow sports, and not rely on potentially shaky history books.

New England was dominating Oakland at Oakland in the first round of the '76 playoffs until the refs decided the glamor team had to advance. The entire 4th quarter was one blatant screw job on one side of the field with equally blatant non-calls the other way. Phil Villipiano was grabbing Russ Francis' jersey on one key play after another without a call. The NBC crew would show the isolated replays and be astonished nothing was being called.

That enabled the Raiders to overcome a double digit deficit to make it close, but it still wouldn't have been enough until the refs made the most outrageous call of all, a roughing the passer call on Sugar Bear Hamilton after Stabler's 4th down pass fell harmlessly incomplete, in fact way out of bounds, with less than a minute left. I'm still livid New England got screwed in that game and I'm hardly a Patriot fan. The tuck call in '01 didn't come close to matching it because that was only one call, not a dozen or more like in '76. Oakland was buried by New England something like 48-17 in Foxboro earlier that season so all the idiot prognosticators were screaming for big revenge heading into the game. BS. New England matched up great against that Raiders team and would have beaten them virtually every time minus intervention. Then the Raiders won the AFC title game against a Steeler team minus Franco Harris or Rocky Bleir.

Reggie White was a great player, one of the most dominant players in his prime of anyone at any position in history. So no argument there.

Troy Aikman had 5 terrific seasons from '91 thru '95 when the Cowboys were in their heyday. He averaged between 7.3 and 7.9 yards per attempt in each of those seasons with 3 titles and great playoff performances including winning at San Francisco in the '92 NFC title game. The 7.0 career YPA is much less than it usually takes to enter the Hall of Fame, and Aikman really fell off post-'95, but based on that 5 year period he earned it.

[democracyindanger]

11. Madden has

the highest winning percentage in NFL history of any coach, and that's over a 10 year period. That alone merits his election. Love him, hate him--he was a helluva coach, and the influence he has had on the league's popularity is undeniable.

[kathy14-0]

12. I have to agree

Reggie WHite is the only one I really agree totally with.

[fishwax]

14. You don't agree with Warren Moon?

The third most prolific passer in league history, who would, most likely, hold the record for most passing yards in a career had he not spent the first five years of his career in Canada, since NFL execs didn't believe a black QB could make it in the NFL?

I think Reggie White and Warren Moon are no-brainers, and other than that I wouldn't have seen any of the others as a major slight if they hadn't made it. I'm lukewarm on Madden, but am not surprised that he would make it as kind of an ambassador of the game. I think Aikman was overrated, and while I have no doubt he'd get in eventually, I'm not sure he's first-ballot worthy ...

[Robeson]

15. I pretty much agree with everything you said....

...And it must be remembered, the CFL at the time of Moon, was a very good league. The Edmonton teams he was on, were some of the best in that League's history. Also, back then, the CFL was competing with the NFL for some very good players, who were considered 1st and 2nd rounders in the NFL.

I'm lukewarm on Madden, too. As a coach, he was vastly overrated. Everyone says a coach for the Raiders is a puppet, under Al Davis. Well, under that criteria, Madden would have been a puppet too! Why should he be exempt from that same analysis? But the ambassador point you made, is valid.

As for Troy, he got in off of his Super Bowls. He also lived the rest of his career off of those Super Bowls, and was little above average, if that, his last few seasons.

[fishwax]

17. I think they won the Grey Cup every year he was in the CFL

I might be wrong about that, but that's how I remember it. They were a great team. I was quite young back then, but I used to love watching the CFL, and ESPN used to show CFL games all the time since they didn't have contracts for all the mainstream sports they do now. I often wish there were some way I could watch the CFL now ...

And Troy is definitely getting in on his Super Bowls, as his numbers are comparable to folks like Theisman and Simms, who are still on the outside looking in. And while it isn't his fault that he was surrounded by a great cast, i think he was made great by the players around him, rather than the other way around.

[Awsi Dooger]

21. That's where I stand

Reggie White was an alltime player, the type who the Hall should enshrine without thought.

Otherwise, I'm not thrilled with any of the rest. I detailed most of the rationale in my previous post. But seriously, if Rayfield Wright gets in, then what do you do with the likes of an Orlando Pace or a Walter Jones, to just name a couple? They are significantly better athletes and tackles than a Rayfield Wright, who was hardly light on his feet or agile in the upper body. Art Shell was a tremendous player and Hall of Fame caliber. For Rayfield Wright to share the same distinction seems radically off base to me.

There was a reason Wright, Madden and Carson had to wait so long: marginal HOF credentials. For all 3 of them to make it in one year significantly diminishes this class to me. Take one fence stradler per year if you have to.

Warren Moon is a tough call. I don't discount Canada and he's in if you count those years. But it should be pointed out the QB position has dramatically upgraded beginning with the early '80s. I have a link somewhere that points it out, with incredible numbers. The so-called West Coast offense and superior offensive coaching have led to a huge reduction in interception percentage and therefore an astounding bump in overall QB rating. There are tons of '80s to now QBs who have great career numbers compared to the '50s thru late '70s era. If you start letting the Warren Moons in, then a dozen or more QBs will have similar claims at the end of their careers. He has a lifetime 7.2 yards per attempt and no Super Bowls. That's not automatic Hall of Fame in my book. For reference purposes, all four conference title teams this year had QBs with yards per attempt of 7.38 or higher.

[imouttahere]

16. Wow, that takes the term "sour grapes" to a whole new level!

Why on earth would NFL officials, who worked for Pete Rozelle, who despised Al Davis, want to help the Raiders??? Amazing.

But, I digress. Madden's record speaks for itself, and any rational football fan knows he belongs in the HOF. Madden's Raiders, like the Steelers, Cowboys, Dolphins and Vikings teams of that era, dominated the NFL. We could go on all day about supposed injustices, like for example Rob Lytle's fumble not being called in the '77 AFC Championship, which could have prevented Madden's Raiders from appearing in a second Super Bowl in a row. Notice I used the word "could" there.

As for Madden being a puppet: this is something that has always been laughable to me. Al Davis gets more camera time than just about any owner, short of Jerry Jones or perhaps Dan Snyder. In all that time, have you ever seen Davis wearing a head set? The coach still has to get the job done on the field. Personally I think most head coaches are overrated, it's the assistants that do the bulk of the work.

[Awsi Dooger]

20. I can't believe you're questioning the incompetence of the '76 officiating

Truly amazing and off-base. I've never seen anyone seriously try to discount that the officiating, for whatever reason, was incredibly tilted in Oakland's favor. It's the only result I refuse to acknowledge for a reason, the onslaught of ineptitude. It made Sunday's Super Bowl look like the most perfectly called game in sports history.

Here's a sample of an online article: "Would the Raiders have gone on to beat the Steelers? They think so. They probably also think they could have taken the Rams also. No dispute here, but this is not as clear cut as to what would have happened in 1976 had the Patriots not been victimized by perhaps the worst official’s call in NFL history.

"On the play in question, Hamilton and Richard Bishop did a stunt rush. Hamilton bore in on Stabler and crashed into his arm as he was releasing the ball. The play was a deep left sideline route to former Patriot running back Carl Garrett, which fell incomplete. Dreith threw the flag and called the penalty on Hamilton. Hamilton, to this day, calls the call “bull”. Even Stabler himself denies that he was roughed on the play, saying that “it wasn’t a late hit”, all the while claiming that Dreith called Hamilton for a blow to the head which Stabler doesn’t overtly concur with."

That was merely the final call. As I indicated, there were perhaps a dozen, all concentrated in the late 3rd quarter to end of the game, beginning when New England led, 21-10.

Here's another section from a different online article: "The last 8 minutes of the game was filled with several controversial plays. Facing a 3rd-and-inches situation just inside the Oakland 30-yard line, Brock jumped offside, forcing the Patriots out of their short-yardage offense. On the next play Grogan attempted to hit Ron Francis over the middle for a drive-sustaining first down, but Raider LB Phil Villipiano all but tackled Francis before the ball arrived, but no penalty was called."

That Rob Lytle funble was obviously a bogus call but my memory was Denver was leading at the time anyway and it was either first half or third quarter. I'm sure it wasn't late in the game on a deciding drove. It was hardly a call that indisputably changed the outcome of the game, i.e. the BS call against Sugar Bear Hamilton.

[DaveinMD]

18. Completely wrong on Carson my friend

Carson was a great player. Every bit as good as Singletary, but without the eyes. He was the heart and soul of the Giants defense and was a great player before the Giants got LT.