Should there be cheerleaders in pro sports?

[Onceuponalife]

In an attempt to start a serious discussion (please no flaming and insults), I was wondering what everyone thought about this topic, which I have never seen discussed before.

I realize cheerleading is very big in high schools and colleges with the competitions and everything, but do professional sports really need it? I think it's demeaning to women and sends a message to girls that they should aspire to be mere ornamentation for fans to ogle over while the sports should be played by men. I think women's sports should be promoted more and cheerleaders phased out. Do fans really need to be led to cheer? Shouldn't the caliber of play on the field determine how much the fans cheer? Why are sexist attitudes and racy ads being used to promote sports to an audience that includes many children? It's no wonder homophobia and adultery is rampant among pro athletes. Can we have an honest discussion about this? Thanks.

[BlooInBloo]

1. (shrug) If girls want to show me their bewbies for money while I watch a game....

Who am I to argue?

[Onceuponalife]

6. Would you feel the same if it was your daughter

whose job description read "display yourself for drunken slobs who need diversions from converstaions with their family and friends during long, torturous halftime sessions"?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Depends how good the pay was.

[BlooInBloo]

56. But that would never happen. My daughter will have something to offer the world...

beyond her bewbies.

[madinmaryland]

2. Yeah. There is a difference between high school/college cheerleading

as compared to pro sports. The only reason for pro "cheerleaders" is that sex sells. Not sure if there is a link between cheerleaders and the issues you mentioned (homophobia & adultery).

I would consider that to be of a result of the athletes being the constant center of attention giving them a sense of "entitlement" and the inability to keep the violence of the playing field from seeping into their life off the field.

[Onceuponalife]

7. That doesn't seem to have worked

as evidenced by all the violence and criminal activity engaged in by these overpaid, overpampered athletes.

The link I make with homophobia and adultery (i.e., players cheating on their wives in motel rooms while on the road) is in the women who are exploited for the entertainment of the masses, a lot of them children, who in turn develop attitudes (see link below) about women that they exist merely as entertainment for men, which makes adultery acceptable as a man's birthright. This kind of atmosphere helps feed macho attitudes that lead to violently reactive behavior when confronted with relationships outside the heterosexual "norm." Just look at people like Reggie White, Marshall Faulk, John Rocker, etc. who don't feel uncomfortable at all airing hateful comments about gays because they know they will face hardly any negative impact from it, unlike, say, if a player made bigoted comments about minorities. Meanwhile the many gay men who play in the NBA, NFL and MLB have to pretend to be straight in order to be allowed to continue their careers.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with sex industries like pornography, strip clubs (with worker representation), and prostitution. Those are sex workers in adult industries where the arbiters are consenting adults. But sex doesn't belong in family fair such as sports and advertising that is seen routinely by children.


My views may seem extreme. The lyrics to this Aus Rotten song may give you some light of where I'm coming from. I may not agree with them exactly, but pretty close..

[Upton]

3. Why not?

I agree with our resident Dallas Cowboy fan..I really don't see the connection to homophobia and adultery.

Anyway, to be honest with you, some us like looking at beautiful women.

[Onceuponalife]

8. I like looking too

but you can do that by just walking down the street alone with your own thoughts. Teaching kids at a ball game that women exist merely to be ogled and having them listen to the crude comments of men isn't good for their psychological well-being and I'm not down with that. Sex doesn't belong in sports.

[Captain Hilts]

24. The cheerleaders - and TV cameras focusing on them leading to commercial breaks...

really repulses female viewers.

If the NFL wants to keep its ratings up, why deliberately insult 50% of the population to curry favor with the demographic that will watch it no matter what?

The same can be said for a lot of the commercials during NFL games. More women in shrink-wrap. Ugh!

[Captain Hilts]

4. It's each team's call, but I am NOT pleased with the Wash Caps shrink-wrap clad 'spirit squad'. nt

[MrSlayer]

5. Yes, and they should be naked.

We don't need to be told when to cheer, they are there to entertain you during the TV time outs. The cheerleaders are good looking and talented. I have no problem with cheerleaders or ice girls or a dance team for basketball or the ballgirls in baseball. It's all good.

[cboy4]

10. That's the perfect liberal answer.

Just don't post this in the feminist forum, where any talk of pornography or cheerleading will get you banned.

That's what I hear.

[MrSlayer]

12. I will heed that advice.

Since I was considering doing just that very thing. :dunce:

[hughee99]

9. If fans don't really need to be led to cheer

do we get rid of mascots like the Philly Phanatic as well? The Phillies and other baseball teams don't have cheerleaders, but the mascots fill the same role in an non-sexual way.

I'm also skeptical that cheerleaders are the reason for homophobia and adultery being rampant among pro athletes, though they may be a symptom of the same problem. I think it's probably more likely that the culture of "macho" among athletes in general (pro or otherwise) as well as the type of personalities that tend to become involved in sports is more responsible, as athletes in sports without cheerleaders (baseball, tennis, golf and nascar, for example) seem to have many of the same issues. From my personal experiences, anyway, the same culture seems to exists in many police and fire stations where I've seen the same homophobia and adultery without the cheerleaders.

[RockaFowler]

17. The Florida Marlins do

As a matter of fact the Marlins have both men and women cheerleaders. The women are called the Mermaids and the men (rather obese) are called the Manatees. They are funny and make for a nice time at the game.

[hughee99]

18. Really? I've never heard of that.

Just like most Miami residents, I've never been to a Marlins game. It's on my list, though. I been visiting at least 1 park a year since 2004. Hopefully, by the time I make it down to Miami, they'll be back up again.

.

[cboy4]

11. I don't know.....I can't keep my eyes off of the chicks when they

perform their routines.

And I'm not going to blame the women for creating a homophobic environment.

Hell, we have DUers who are perfectly capable of performing those duties.

[trumad]

13. Oh God---

You want an honest discussion--- Your fucking Op is the dumbest fucking Op in the history of this sports section.

Homophobia and adultery caused by cheerleaders---- To stupid for words.

[cboy4]

14. He said:

"(please no flaming and insults)"

right on cue

:rofl:

[trumad]

15. You saying "can't keep my eyes off of the chicks"....

Now that's fucking hilarious.

[cboy4]

23. Yea, because if they're gay, they must not like looking at women.

:crazy:

Is there really any depth to your stupidity?

[Iggo]

16. Yes.

[Auggie]

19. Just give me a winning team

[LisaM]

20. They shouldn't call them cheerleaders unless they lead cheers

It really pisses me off. It is not just pro sports anymore. Colleges are getting ridiculous, too. They do two things: dance, and do stunts. They often aren't engaged with the game at hand. It really, really, aggravates me.

The latest trend are women at college football games who don't even seem to wear shoes. They have something on their feet - hard to tell what - but they look as if they are barefoot.

If they don't want to watch the game and engage the crowd in cheers, then let them go wiggle their goods somewhere else. I really dislike how they encroach on sports venues for their personal gloire. I have been watching sports my whole life and I LIKE to be involved in crowd cheers and songs. It's fun. It's part of the sport. I really don't care to see 80 women (as happens in pro football) go out there and strut their dance moves. It's annoying and has nothing to do with the game.

[trumad]

21. Speak for yourself.

[Captain Hilts]

25. You want to look at breasts, go buy Playboy or Girls Gone Wild. That's not what the NFL is

supposed to be for.

Somehow, I doubt you'd stop watching football if they got rid of cheerleaders.

[trumad]

27. I go for the show...

and I have no objection to seeing beautiful young women dancing/Cheering on the sideline.

I'm guessing you hate the Rockettes as well?

Fucking prudes.

[Captain Hilts]

29. Well, we need guys with big dicks in speedos at NFL games too then. nt

[trumad]

30. Hey if that floats your boat fine...

Do you need to get laid or what?

[hughee99]

31. If they thought it would sell more tickets

or get fans more excited, that's EXACTLY what they'd do.

[Captain Hilts]

32. I don't know. Women find the sponsors' ads offensive/insulting and nothing is done. nt

[hughee99]

33. If women make up a large enough percentage of their target market

they'd do something. It's about money, and they believe (whether it's true or not) that they sell more of their product as a result of these ads, than they'd make if they didn't run them.

It's like vegans organizing a boycott of a steakhouse, sure there's a lot of people that are pissed at the steakhouse, but they weren't customers before, so you haven't lost much. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that women don't make up a significant portion of the viewing audience (certainly far more than vegan steakhouse patrons), but for the NFL and it's sponsors it's just not a large enough demographic to make it worthwhile to change their approach. Beyond that, I think they (the NFL and their sponsors who run such ads) believe that those who do complain aren't their target audience anyway, as many women who watch these sports have been conditioned through the years to just accept it (like it or not) and move on.

[Captain Hilts]

37. My point is that current policies repel a good % of women from watching. The NFL is

priming a pump that does not need to be primed. Young men will watch the NFL with little inducement to do so. While priming that pump, their teams and sponsors use advertising, etc. that a lot of women find insulting.

If there were no cheerleaders and sexist beer commercials young men would stop watching football? I don't think so.

[hughee99]

38. Is that really the question, though?

If there was no cheerleaders and sexist beer commercials, would more women watch? That's how the NFL looks at it. Is there a large demographic of women out there who would be consistent NFL viewers but for the cheerleaders and beer commercials?

The beer vendors running the commercials don't care about the NFL, they just know that their target audience will see their commercials if they run them during a football game. Their commercials aren't sexist because that's what the NFL wants, they're like that because that's what the advertisers think the target audience wants. The NFL is running the ads that pay them the most, be it Beer, cars, or the Sham-wow.

[jschurchin]

22. Being from Pittsburgh

we do not have cheerleaders and really have no use for them. I do not begrudge any person from making a living in the field of their choice. I just do not understand wanting to persue cheerleading as a occupation. Then again, to each their own.

[LisaM]

26. Most of them just do it as a sideline

They don't make much money at it.

Michigan used to have all male cheerledears. They were all gymnasts (or mostly). Tryouts were always open to both sexes - you just had to be able to do the stunts. That changed in the late 80s or early 90s - can't remember when. One more tradition shattered. I remember those games - and they really engaged the crowd in the cheers. It was fun.

[Ganja Ninja]

28. Nothing wrong with a little eye candy. n/t

[Onceuponalife]

35. I'd like to thank the people

who responded intelligently and respectfully. It's sad, however, that sexism and cave man mentality can exist on a "progressive" forum. I didn't wander into the freeper forum by accident, did I? LOL

I just want to clarify....I am not blaming the cheerleaders AT ALL for this. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that. It's the men who make the rules and always feed their most base desires above all else who exploit these women and are the only ones to blame. Sure, I'd like to see more women stand up to this degredation and call it for what it is, but of course if they did you'd hear chorus of "Cunt!" "Bitch" and "Shake it for me, baby" from the sickos in the peanut gallery.

[trumad]

36. "degredation"

Cut the shit.

sexism and cave man mentality?

Why---because we like to look at beautiful dancing women.

Freeper forum?

I didn't wander into a James Dobson family forum did I?

You're puritanical thread is horseshit and I'm calling you on it.

You pop into this sports forum calling the posters here "Freepers" because we dig cheerleaders????

Here--- I've posted a picture that most likely will make your eyes burn out---- oh the shame.

[cboy4]

41. I like this photo better

[Onceuponalife]

42. Dude

chill out. The Freeper comment was a joke which I thought I was making clear by the "LOL" next to it.

"Puritanical"? Hardly. If you saw the pics on my comp...the pic you posted is pure Disney compared to them. The difference is I'm not posting them everywhere on billboards and in commercials at all hours of the day and for all audiences. Take a good look at some of the ads that are running during sports events and at other times...when advertisers know children are watching. Mark my word, in 5 years there will be simulated sex on broadcast TV that would make 2 Live Crew blush.

My point is this...sex doesn't need to be everywhere and so saturated in the culture that sexists don't even realize they are being sexist. We've brought up a whole generation of kids to basically view women as amusements to be ogled.

I asked for a serious discussion and guess what? I got a serious discussion by a few posters, most of them women. And the sarcastic, misogynistic posts came from men. Somehow I don't think that was a coincidence. I'm sorry you didn't like being called a caveman, but your knee jerk respose told me quite a lot about you. So if you don't like being called one then don't act like one.

[a la izquierda]

39. This woman dislikes the idea of it

Why do girls have to cheer on the boys? Why is it necessary? I think crowds are perfectly capable of figuring out how to cheer on their own. I don't think male athlete's egos are that fragile that they need cheering on.
And yes, I realize there are male cheerleaders.
I do not think most cheerleaders are athletes, though some certainly are fantastic gymnasts (and great athletes at that). Most "cheerleaders" are dancers...nothing more. When I was in high school, the cheerleaders decided it would be cool to wear shirts that said "Cheerleaders are athletes too". We female athletes nearly died. I was a year-round athlete (XC, track and swimming), as were most of my friends, who played soccer, softball and basketball. Those are sports; the most athletic thing our high school's cheer squad did was a lap around the track and when the girls' sports teams challenged them in some friendly competition, we were afraid they might all drown in their mascara afterward. It was a riot.

At the same time, I watch football every weekend and don't give a crap about the cheerleaders. It's their life, they can do whatever they want with it--I think guys who obsess over them have some issues.

[bluescribbler]

40. I trust Red Auerbach on this

He felt that cheerleaders were unnecessary at a professional sporting event. If the team is playing well, the fans will cheer. If it isn't, they won't. Colleges and high schools have their own cheers, and everybody who goes to the games knows the cheers, and it helps to boost that amorphous thing, "school spirit". Pro teams don't have that.
Bob Ryan is a sportswriter for the Boston Globe. One night, at a road game, maybe the LA Lakers, Bob asked Red when the Celtics were going to get dancing girls. "Over my dead body", was Red's answer. That's how it worked out, too. Red died just before the first season featuring the Celtics' Dancers.

[Onceuponalife]

43. Wow. Great story

Thanks for that tidbit. Mr. Auerbach sounded like a great man, apart of course, from his greatness as a coach. Cheers.

[Captain Hilts]

46. I used to see Red driving around my 'hood - Bethesda/Chevy Chase.

Evidently, a lot of his last meals came from Tastee Diner.

[bumblebee1]

44. Adultery due to cheerleaders?

Adultery in pro sports is due to an athlete having an overwhelming sense of entitlement. The entitlement starts at the lower ranks in the sports world, below high school and college. It starts when a kid can run faster than the next kid, throw a ball farther, hit a ball farther, score more goals, etc. The people surrounding them tell the kid the world is his oyster. The athlete regards things like cash, clothes, cars and women as something he can use and discard any way he wants. Most of these athletes have never had anyone say NO to them. NO will sound like Chinese to them. Michael Strahan fooled around on his wife. It had nothing to do with the NY Giants had or didn't have cheerleaders.

One of the differences between college and pro cheerleading squads: college squads include men. This way, the women aren't the main focal point. College cheerleading includes dangerous stunts, which require athletic skill.

Unfortunately in this society, sex sells. It sells everything from alcohol to cars. Is this sexist? You're damn straight it is!!! It's still a man's world. The racy ads are made to appeal the basest instincts of men. Unfortunately, these kinds of ads work. I, personally, find the Mastercard ads with Peyton Manning funny. However, Peyton is not out displaying his body in a Speedo while selling Mastercard. ONe of the biggest souvenirs from the staduim is the cheerleader swimsuit calendar. I'd like to see a football player swimsuit calendar put out by the teams.

Women's sports should be taken seriously. This should include all women's sports in addition to figure skating and gymnastics. Americans prefer their women to be ladies: sit in the background, be quiet and let the men play. Or in sports terms, stand on the sidelines, jump up and down in a uniform that resembles your underwear, make sure there are enough parts jiggling and accept your payment in peanuts. You can always have the pride of wearing our cheerleading uniform.

How would some of these guys feel if the drunken slobs in the stadium yelling "Shake it, baby!" were yelling that at their sister? daughter? wife? girlfriend?

[Onceuponalife]

47. Great post

Thanks for your comments. I agree with a lot of what you have to say. Please understand, as I have said previously, I am not blaming cheerleaders for adultery and homophobia by athletes. Rather, it is a by-product of the sexist attitudes that have been forced down the throat of society for decades.

I agree with you that college cheerleading is very different than in the pros. My comments in this thread are directed at whether cheerleaders in pro sports are needed, and, indeed, whether we as a society should want it.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

48. If it's demeaning in the pros, why isn't it demeaning in HS and college?

I don't see how there's a difference.

[H2O Man]

51. Great question!

Thank you.

[Onceuponalife]

53. Well, it IS demeaning

but on a smaller scale. There are differences as has been discussed previously. There is more athleticism and acrobatics at the college and HS level. It is very competitive between schools. Seriously, the girls I knew in HS wouldn't have been caught dead in the cheerleading squad. Personally, I had more respect for the band.

No disrespect intended for H2O's family members who chose to join cheerleading squads. Male cheerleaders are not objectified like the women are. I suspect the female football fans are focusing on the players tight butts in the uniforms than they are on male cheerleaders.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

49. The Pittsburgh Steelers don't need cheerleaders!

The Pittsburgh Steelers no longer have official cheerleaders. The Steelers had cheerleaders called the Steeleretts from 1961-1970.
http://www.nflteamhistory.com/nfl_teams/pittsburgh_steelers/cheerleaders.html

The Steelers have won 6 Super Bowls without cheerleaders.

[trumad]

50. The 49ers have won 5 with cheerleaders---And the Chicago Bulls won 6 with cheerleaders.

kind of blows your thesis out of the water.

[spin]

52. Nah,those teams need cheerleaders...

The Steelers had never won a Superbowl before they dropped the cheerleaders. I've heard that Art Rooney Sr. felt cheerleaders were a distraction.

Recalls Art Rooney Jr.: "After one of the seasons, the captain of the cheerleaders came in and saw my dad. It was like one of those old Betty Grable movies, and she said, 'Mr. Rooney ... the skirts out on the street are shorter than the ones we wear. We really think it would help if we wore shorter skirts.'

"My dad never did like that stuff. He dismissed her; she went back to class. He called out, 'Fogarty,' and Fran came in the room.

" 'That girl?'

" 'The cheerleader?'

" 'Nice girl. Pretty kid. Fire the cheerleaders.'

" 'Fire the cheerleaders?'

"And Fogarty said, 'That's Dan and Murphy's deal.'

" 'Fire Murphy, too.' "
http://nflcheerleader.blogspot.com/2007/10/in-60s-steelers-were-way-ahead-of.html




I didn't say that other teams can do without cheerleaders.

Note the NY Giants also do not have an official cheerleading squad, but they have won 3 Superbowls.

[trumad]

54. My point is that Cheerleaders don't make or break a team.

[PVnRT]

57. I think, in pro settings, it's just silly

I mean, c'mon, who sees the cheerleaders at NFL games? Maybe if you sit near the field, but that's it. As for pro basketball, I don't care, since I don't watch it, the NBA being far more boring than golf or soccer.