Why is a bully allowed to remain in a classroom where every kid is terrified?

[Riley18]

There is no legal way to get a bully out of a class. After telling the kids to speak up and not be afraid, I find out that the bully gets to stay in the same room with the victims. Also, the bully is entitled to all the same privileges as the victims. It makes no sense because even though so many kids have been abused there really is nothing than can be done.

[Cleita]

1. Just a thought, since I don't know much about kids and my experience is

my own childhood. But if there are that many terrified kids, wouldn't it be a good thing to teach those kids to travel in packs for protection? If there are too many kids to attack, maybe the bully might think twice about it.

[Gman2]

3. Just one ass kicking, en masse, and voila, no bully.

[Cleita]

4. I wouldn't want to encourage reverse violence. However, I think

parents and teachers could organize these kids and equip them with cell phones so that if an incident does start an adult is readily available to take care of the bully when one of the kids calls from his cell phone. If these kids are protected by each other and the adults through the day until they come home, it could diffuse the bully because his opportunity to bully will be gone permanently and the kids will feel safer and more secure.

[Warpy]

5. We all hate violence

Schools are useless at this point. They still don't take it seriously enough. Bully children generally have bully parents, so you can't expect any help from that quarter, either.

The only thing I've found a bully really understands is a bloody nose. Once he finds out a kid isn't afraid of being hurt and will hurt him back, he leaves that kid alone.

Often it doesn't even escalate to a fight. Often the bully backs down immediately when he realizes a kid has had enough and is ready to hurt him.

[Taitertots]

9. Everyone I've seen get bullied, got bullied because they couldn't give them a bloody nose

If Mike Tyson was bullying you today, would you try to punch him in the nose?

[mzteris]

2. I'd need more info on the entire situation,

the kids, the ages, the school, the circumstances, the policies, the teachers....

That said, assuming the other kids IS a "bully" and nothing is being done and there isn't some protected reason why there's nothing being done, then - if I were the parent of the OTHER kids .. . let's just say the school system would be getting a whole damn lot of attention . . . Are you the teacher, or a parent? If you're not a teacher in the system, then organize the "victims" parents and seek justice.

But again, I'd have to know more before I could say definitively.

[mwrguy]

6. Is this literal?

Or a metaphor about the US and Israel being in the UN?

[mbperrin]

7. In Texas, the teacher may remove a child from the classroom:

http://tx.aft.org/index.cfm?action=article&articleID=b0c31a19-1526-4769-8657-45cc5ec5efa6


1. Question: How does this state law affect local policy on student conduct?

Answer: Section 37.001(a) of the Education Code requires your local school district to adopt a student code of conduct. This local code cannot reduce teachers’ authority granted by state law to remove disruptive students. In case of any conflict between your local code of conduct and the provisions of this state law, the state law controls. The local code of conduct must comply with the state law concerning disciplinary removal of a student from a classroom, campus, or a disciplinary alternative education program; transfer of a student to a disciplinary alternative education program; and suspension or expulsion.

The law says consideration must be given in disciplinary decisions to these factors: student's intent, disciplinary history, impaired mental capacity due to disability, and self-defense. The law does not mandate that these factors be given any specific weight, however.

2. Question: What discipline tools are provided?

Answer: The state law allows a student’s removal from the regular classroom for repeated or serious interference with instruction. It mandates removal of a student and placement in a disciplinary alternative education program (DAEP) for more serious offenses like assault causing bodily injury. For the gravest offenses—including aggravated assault and bringing guns and illegal knives to school—it mandates removal, expulsion, and referral to the juvenile justice system. (NOTE: Students under six cannot be placed in a disciplinary alternative education program, and students under ten cannot be expelled.

The teacher who removes the student has a right to refuse that student’s return to the classroom. In certain cases (see questions 5 and 6) the teacher’s refusal can be overruled, but in some of the most serious cases, the teacher’s refusal cannot be overruled.

[donco6]

14. These laws are worthless.

Yes, the teacher can remove a kid, but the laws do nothing to protect the teacher from being sued by the kid's parents. If the teacher does it unilaterally, they're out there on their own.

[mbperrin]

17. I see you're not from Texas. I know of three cases in the high school

where I teach where a teacher removed a kid from their classroom. Two are at the Alternative Center, while the third is taking all online courses from home.

Must be different in Colorado. Parent has no standing to sue in Texas, because there is no "right" to be in a particular teacher's class, and the student is receiving instruction as per state law.

[donco6]

18. I think you're just really lucky.

I don't see how it *couldn't* be a civil rights violation.

[mbperrin]

20. What right do you have to be in a particular teacher's classroom?

That's what is done - transfer from one teacher to another; if that involves a building change, transportation is provided.

At this link, you'll find disciplinary information from the state of Texas. Actually allowing a bully or any other disruptive student to interfere with the education of other children is a violation of their rights to an education.

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/peims/standards/wedspre/index.html?app_disciplinary_information_for_students_at_least_age



Here's the actual statute: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/ED/htm/ED.37.htm

Sec. 37.002. REMOVAL BY TEACHER. (a) A teacher may send a student to the principal's office to maintain effective discipline in the classroom. The principal shall respond by employing appropriate discipline management techniques consistent with the student code of conduct adopted under Section 37.001.

(b) A teacher may remove from class a student:

(1) who has been documented by the teacher to repeatedly interfere with the teacher's ability to communicate effectively with the students in the class or with the ability of the student's classmates to learn; or

(2) whose behavior the teacher determines is so unruly, disruptive, or abusive that it seriously interferes with the teacher's ability to communicate effectively with the students in the class or with the ability of the student's classmates to learn.

(c) If a teacher removes a student from class under Subsection (b), the principal may place the student into another appropriate classroom, into in-school suspension, or into a disciplinary alternative education program as provided by Section 37.008. The principal may not return the student to that teacher's class without the teacher's consent unless the committee established under Section 37.003 determines that such placement is the best or only alternative available. The terms of the removal may prohibit the student from attending or participating in school-sponsored or school-related activity.

(d) A teacher shall remove from class and send to the principal for placement in a disciplinary alternative education program or for expulsion, as appropriate, a student who engages in conduct described under Section 37.006 or 37.007. The student may not be returned to that teacher's class without the teacher's consent unless the committee established under Section 37.003 determines that such placement is the best or only alternative available. If the teacher removed the student from class because the student has engaged in the elements of any offense listed in Section 37.006(a)(2)(B) or Section 37.007(a)(2)(A) or (b)(2)(C) against the teacher, the student may not be returned to the teacher's class without the teacher's consent. The teacher may not be coerced to consent.

[donco6]

21. Two things:

One, you said the one kid was taking online classes at home. I don't consider that transferring to another teacher. That's a removal from school, ala expulsion. Unilateral expulsion.

Second, how does this solve bullying? If you do it under the statute, you just move the kid to another classroom or teacher. Sounds like a dance of the lemons to me.

[mbperrin]

22. Online classes are real classes taught by real teachers.

Kid is not expelled, just enrolled in the district online school.Parents would rather have him home that at the Alternative Center.

Alternative Center is highly structured environment where movement is controlled, very small ratio of students/staff (about 5:1), and high security. Another part of the district's programs.

[LWolf]

8. While every district and school I've ever worked in has

procedures in place to deal with bullying, there ARE obstacles to removing them from school. The first, obviously, being their right to a public education.

While some places have alternative schools for behavior problems, they don't really solve the problem; they just remove it from the general population. I don't know that any district has enough alternative programs for every bully. It's more effective to try to reduce the amount of bullying by teaching social skills. That also requires resources that strapped districts scrambling to make AYP (remember what comes first under the law) may not have.

From a teacher's standpoint, it's getting concrete evidence that is the biggest problem. Nobody bullies anyone else in my classroom. They know better. Bullying happens out of sight of adults, or so far away that the adult can't hear, or see clearly, exactly what's going on. Then it's a matter of conflicting testimony. It doesn't matter if we believe one side; if there is no evidence, we can't take sides. Try to imagine telling one set of parents that "the stories conflict; we believe the other kid, and think that your kid is the liar." THAT's not going to end well.

Bullies usually have followers to back their stories, true or not, so getting "eye witness" accounts amount to hearing the friends on one each side back their friend; it's not solid.

Finally, even when a school monitors fields, playgrounds, hallways, bathrooms, etc. to ensure that no blatant bullying occurs on school grounds, schools don't supervise the areas off-campus that bullying is more likely to be happening.

So, while there are procedures for removal, getting enough CONCRETE evidence can be tricky.

[donco6]

16. When we do catch it, it's with the bus cameras.

The kids think they get away with things on the bus because the driver is facing the road. But we catch kids all the time with bullying behavior. It's really a great tool and wish we had more, but it's really expensive. Parents can't argue when they watch their darling Billy smacking some 3rd grader on the head.

Of course, only about half our kids ride the bus.

[Kerrytravelers]

10. I think we're going to need a lot more detail before you can get any specific advice.

That being said, LWolf is completely correct. The one way you can say "conflicting stories" and still call the bully a bald-faced liar is if you have documented all the behavior all year. I've done that in my classroom. With one particular student, I had filled a spiral-bound tablet, both sides of the paper, with documented events- including parent contact and their reactions- by December. So, it was much easier for me to point and say "statistically, this is the behavior we've seen and you've ignored since September."

[bluestateguy]

11. We need to get over this touchy feely notion that every child in America is entitled to an education

I say no, not children who repeatedly and chronically bully others. Just write 'em off. No education, no future.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Should we lock em up?

Or let them roam the community all day while the good kids are in school?

[mzteris]

13. "write 'em off" ???

:wtf:

Maybe they're being bullied themselves. Maybe they have undiagnosed mental health issues. Maybe they have unrecognized learning differences. Maybe there is a reason they are bullies.

Wouldn't it make better sense to try and make a bully NOT a bully instead of "writing them off" and pretty much ensuring they go on to wreak havoc in the greater world and wind up in prison?

That said, bullying should not be tolerated and those being bullied protected. However, unless they're a certifiable socio/psycho path, there's probably help for the bully to change.

[donco6]

15. Well, that would require a constitutional change in most states.

But go ahead - knock yourself out.

[earthside]

19. End Compulsory Education

If a kid and his parents don't want her or him to be in school, or if it is not important to them, why should they be there?

As has been observed about many high school drop-outs, eventually these people figure out (the hard way) that an education is necessary to survive in this society and they find ways to get at least a GED. In the mean time, at least they are not being forced to be somewhere they don't want to be and disrupting learning for those that truly want it.

Anyway, I wish we were debating this kind of idea rather than the Bush/Spellings/Obama/Duncan "bust the unions" so-called reform.

[Nevernose]

23. You have the right to an education

Should you choose to waive that right...