UPDATE -- Approval for GLBT Group

[LostinVA]

Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Jun-15-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
86. ===> Update from Skinner

Hi Everyone,

Skinner replied on the 12th (see below) but I wanted to wait and post this today -- since the weekends are a little slow and my message board time is in short supply.

It looks like we have a great opportunity to create a visionary advocacy group for LGBT people and their allies.

Would anyone else be willing to shepherd this process through the next stages of development? LiV wrote the original mission statement and it was Lyric's idea to form a LGBT group -- it would be courteous step to ask them for their input and direction (imho).

Best wishes,
DG

p.s. Thanks, Skinner. :thumbsup:

Hi, Duncan Grant.

I think this is doable. The big issue is making clear what points of view are not welcome in the group. The moderators and admins are going to be the ones who enforce the mission statement, by blocking people who come to the group and violate the mission statement. It is clear, based on the proposed mission statement (and based on my understanding of many members' past complaints) that the proposed group is not for everyone who supports gay rights, and it would not even be open to all of our GLBT members. It is a group for people who hold a specific point of view, and don't wish to have that point of view challenged when they are in the group. (That's fine -- after all, that's the whole point of the DU Groups.)

Obviously, the last sentence of the mission statement is where this is addressed: "If you believe that gay rights should wait for a more convenient political time, then this group is probably not for you." I think this is a good start, and gives some indication of where the line is supposed to be drawn in that group. If possible, it would be helpful if that section could be fleshed out a little more in order to make the intent more clear and make enforcement more straightforward. The mission statement is a tool, and when people come into the forum and violate that mission statement, it helps if the lines drawn in the mission statement are as clear as possible. A few examples: If someone posts that President Obama (or some other prominent Democrat) is anti-gay, would it be forbidden to disagree with that point of view in the group? Would a person be forbidden from saying that they oppose the David Boies/Ted Olson Gay Marriage lawsuit because the proper groundwork has not been laid and they believe failure is likely at the present time?

These are the types of real-world issues that will arise fairly soon in the proposed group. I do not think it is necessary to come up with a complete list of possible arguments and indicate whether they are permitted or not. But I think it would be useful to have a mission statement with some "teeth" so it's clear to everyone what you are trying to accomplish.

In addition, I think some thought should be given to the name of the group. I think that simply calling it the GLBT Group might lead to some confusion with the GLBT forum. It also might not be obvious that the GLBT Group is more restrictive in who is permitted to participate. Could the name be made more descriptive?

You are welcome to bring this message back to everyone who has expressed interest in the group in order to discuss possible changes to the the mission statement and group name.

Take care,

Skinner


**********************************************************************************

I think it should be called the "GLBT Rights Group," and have this added as a last sentence to the mission statement:

"Group participants are asked to respect Dr. King's proclamation,"Rights delayed are rights denied."

Let's fast track this, gang. I think we need it.

[bicentennial_baby]

1. I'm in, and I agree with what you said

:thumbsup:

[Ohio Joe]

2. A small suggestion

Instead of "GLBT Rights Group", how about "GLBT Civil Rights Now Group" or "GLBT Human Rights Now Group"? I think this is a great idea though whatever the group goes with!

[LostinVA]

3. Skinner's answer makes clear that probably wouldn't fly

[Ohio Joe]

4. DOH! I get it now

Sorry, I'd tell you how I was mis-reading it but that would make me feel sillier then I already feel :blush:

[xchrom]

5. recommend -- i have to go with something 'lgbtiq----'' please.

it's more accurate and inclussive than glbt.

but isupport WHATEVER gets the group.

my thanks to lost in va, skinner and others for the work.

[LostinVA]

6. "GLBTIQ Rights Group"

[xchrom]

11. yeah -- but L first now i think. -- that is the contemporary incarnation

and i can't really disagree with it.

[LostinVA]

12. I put it like that to mirror the Forum

[xchrom]

15. absolutely -- and i have no issue with going with the flow. nt

[Raster]

7. YES!

:kick:

[MuseRider]

8. Whatever you all decide

I will vote for it.


"Group participants are asked to respect Dr. King's proclamation,"Rights delayed are rights denied."

This is a wonderful addition I think.

[LostinVA]

10. Thanks!

[LostinVA]

9. If Skinner wants/needs a more specific mission statement:

(credit to bluedawg for using my mission statement and adding her own tweaks):


The purpose of the GLBT Group is to provide a safe space on DU where GLBT people and their allies can discuss issues of importance to our community. Our concerns regard issues of social and economic justice and equality for GLBT people including, but not limited to, the repeal of DADT, the repeal of DOMA, nation wide marriage equality, freedom from discrimination at work, freedom from discrimination in health care and freedom from verbal and physical abuse and violence that is part of today's divided and divisive political landscape and to a large extent in society itself.

DUers of all sexual orientations and gender identities are welcome to participate and we hope to offer useful information, share experiences and build a community in friendship and solidarity. Strong allies are welcome. We maintain that this is the right time for action and activism to make the changes in our nation and we stand in solidarity with our oppressed brothers and sisters around the world. Group participants are asked to respect Dr. King's proclamation: "Rights delayed are rights denied."

*********************

The "GLBT" could be changed to "GLBTIQ."

[foxfeet]

13. Sounds good. Let's go!

[AntiFascist]

36. K&R, sounds good! n/t

[myrna minx]

45. I think that's a great mission statement. Adding my star to the list. n/t

[Debi]

79. Look at me ... late to the party again! Although you have enough stars

please add mine to the list. :hi:

[bluedawg12]

14. I'm good with any name you all chose and support this.

I think it would be very helpful to have such a group on DU.

[Duncan Grant]

16. I support/will sponsor the group!

Thanks LostinVA and Lyric! :kick: :thumbsup:

[LostinVA]

17. Thank you!

[Duncan Grant]

21. My pleasure. I'm so glad to see this gain momentum!

Here's a link to the original thread (for future research purposes):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=137146&mesg_id=137146

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

18. I support it

[LostinVA]

19. And that's 10!

Everyone let's keep discussing this for the night.

[bicentennial_baby]

22. I'm very excited about this!

:bounce:

[dsc]

20. This sounds like a great idea

I would like to sponser as well.

[Lyric]

23. Of course I'm in as a sponsor.

I'm really, really glad that this is finally happening. And making it a "rights" group is a fantastic idea because it defines the debate very narrowly--we are there to discuss how to make gay rights happen NOW, rather than just to discuss gay issues in general. Very good revision.

:grouphug:

[Starry Messenger]

24. My star is in, of course.

:) I can't remember, do you have to do a thread in the GD and get the 10 vote to get a group? Or does it count if it's in any forum?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

27. I can't remember

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

29. Nope, this is okay -- Lostinva just wants to give people a chance to discuss

Tomorrow or so, she'll pass the ball to Duncan.

[Starry Messenger]

30. Excellent.

This is very cool.

[donco6]

25. Count me in. n/t

[mtnester]

26. Yes yes yes from one of your str8t allies

yes...whatever you all need just ask.

[FreeState]

28. Im in as well - count my star too LOL n/t

[Iggo]

31. delete

last edit, i swear...lol.

[LostinVA]

32. It's not exclusive, I don't know why you think it is

Posters are just expected to abide by the rules of the group.

[Iggo]

33. Sorry, I was hoping to retract before anyone replied.

My parents and my Grandma told me stories about the civil rights movement of the last century when they'd run into groups that didn't allow members who did not look like them.

My knee-jerk reaction to perceived exclusivity is to reject it outright.

Sorry about that.

I should've walked around the block before replying.

[mitchtv]

34. I'm in

for all that's worth

[Toasterlad]

35. Skinner Raises Some Valid Points.

How WOULD the group handle someone who argued that Obama was not anti-gay, or that the Olson/Boise case is not good for gay rights? After all, there are legitimate reasons why someone might have those beliefs that have nothing to do with intolerance or homophobia. I submit that the key factor in determining what is or is not appropriate in the group should be TONE. Admittedly, this is often hard to adjudicate given the nature of written communication, but I think we've all be exposed to enough condescension and petulance that we know it when we see it.

[LostinVA]

38. I think we'd know it when we see it, like you said

I really don't mind someone raising those as sincere opinions... I just don't think thet usually ARE sincere opinions. Like you, it's tone: respectful discourse, even if it gets heated, is one thing. You and I have sparred enough, but I don't think you're insincere or condescening in your opinions. Just wrong -- THAT WAS A JOKE!

[Toasterlad]

66. LOL. I've Pissed Off Everyone at One Time or Another.

I enjoy speaking bluntly and with a certain amount of snark; what many people decry is the reason for incivility on the internet - the anonymity - is the main reason I love it. It lets people be truly themselves, to truly speak their mind. I like to think that I honestly try to show respect for anyone with whom I exchange words, no matter how snarky I'm being. That's especially true in the case of my GLBT brothers and sisters, with whom I may (and will!) disagree, but I hope you know that when the chips are down, I've got your backs, like I know you've got mine. The only people I truly don't respect are the people who have no respect for what you and I are going through...the people who love to tell us to shut up and quit whining, who love to kick us while we're down, and who love to offer sage advice on how we don't know jack about how to get equality. I feel no need to be in any way polite to them.

[jgraz]

37. Looks like you have enough, but count me in anyway

Thanks for getting this going.

[leftyclimber]

39. The more stars the merrier.

Been staying off DU to work on my dissertation proposal and missed this earlier.

This group is very much needed. I would be much less likely to be quiet in such a group, and I'm sure there are others like me.

Nice job, Lyric, LostinVA, and everyone else who worked to get this going.

[rosesaylavee]

40. Yes.

That makes sense.

[tekisui]

41. Count my star.

I like where this is going, especially with the use of MLK's words. I am thinking of a post using the language from his Birmingham Jail letter.

I think those who argue now is not the time, or to wait, should definitely not be permitted.

How does everyone feel about the all-too-common "I have a question about _____" that is almost always an opening for criticisms against the GLBT community?

Anyway, it sounds like a great idea and moving along well.

[Ms. Toad]

70. I would suggest there is a fundamental difference

between suggesting that now is not the time because the strategy being proposed/pursued has a high risk of setting back our fight for civil rights (because bad Supreme Court decisions are virtually impossible to get reversed, for example - look how tenaciously Roe v. Wade is hanging on despite decades of stacking the bench with something pretty close to the express goal of reversing it)

and suggesting that now is not the time because it advocating for our rights interfere with someone else's agenda (electing a Democratic President, ending the war, resolving the health care crisis, etc.)

The former should, in my opinion, be allowed and the latter should not.

[Jamastiene]

42. Yes, I want to have a Group for us.

It would be much better than just a forum because there would be a mission statement that would cover our concerns.

[blueraven95]

43. please count my star

This straight girl is happy to lend her support.

[Rhythm]

44. Add another 'star' to this constellation

The revision of purpose is excellent, and i am looking forward to moving this forward.

[William769]

46. Count my star.

[Pacifist Patriot]

47. Thank you for including strong allies. I'd like to be in if no one objects.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

48. Why would we ever object to you?

[Pacifist Patriot]

49. My pits can get awfully stinky in this Florida steam bath.

;)

[LostinVA]

50. TMI

[Pacifist Patriot]

51. You think?

I try to behave, but sometimes it just slips out. Ooo, sounds like the mail truck is here. Bills or income? Place your bets.

[LostinVA]

52. Bills

[Pacifist Patriot]

53. Neither actually.

All crap today. Though my school books got delivered by UPS a few minutes later. Woohoo! Eight weeks to read 18,000 pages. Looks like that much anyway.

[LostinVA]

54. What school books?

[Pacifist Patriot]

55. Humanist Institute

Next session for my class is in August in NYC. It's the reason I was in New York in April. This one is a Wednesday through Sunday session. More arts and sciences!!!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

56. Let us know if you have any free time

We could meet you in the city.

[Pacifist Patriot]

57. I'll try to get a schedule. I should have some because my class is small...

and we work through the material pretty quickly. Everyone in the class, including the instructors, seem to cherish our down time.

[bluedawg12]

73. We love and appreciate our strong allies! Great to have you! n/t

[NorthCarolina]

58. Will this group be open to all LGBT posters,

or just those with a star after their name? And if not, will the existing LGBT Forum remain, or will this new group forum replace it? Sorry if these questions seem a bit sophomoric, but I am not really familiar with the process of establishing a new Group on DU.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

59. You have to be a donor to post in groups

This one would remain open, however.

DU Groups have the option of setting their own rules for posters to abide for, which would make it a "safe haven," unlike this forum.

[NorthCarolina]

60. Gotcha, and thanks for the info. Am glad this one will remain open. nt

[Sapphocrat]

61. Which is why you won't see me there, BUT...

...I do want to extend my congratulations to you guys for getting this. :)

(P.S. The lack of a donor star is deliberate; DO NOT donate in my name, anyone, please -- I'd rather anyone so inclined instead send a donation to Lambda Legal, the ACLU, Americans United, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, or the pro-equality/pro-sanity non-profit of your choice.)

[bicentennial_baby]

64. Sniffa tried that and somebody donated for him, even though

he expressly stated that he was intentionally star-less. x(

:hi:

[Sapphocrat]

81. So far, so good (& star-less)! n/t

[Toasterlad]

67. I'll Respect Your Wishes But I DO Wish You'd Post More Often....You've a Valuable Voice.

[Sapphocrat]

82. Thanks, sweetheart...

That means the world. But I can only say what I really think on my own blog.

[defendandprotect]

62. A few questions . . . and, in fact, I thought there was such a group . . . ???

Anyway, I'm concerned that you've had to go "separate but equal"
in order to gain a "safe haven." Skinner has dedicated the website
to homosexual rights -- but I did notice a few angry-making comments
recently -- which I think we all made pretty clear were dumb?

Presume that we're all invited, but also respect that you need a place
with a bit of privacy to center in on the issues. However, my concern
is that when things like this split off, many of us forget to visit . . .
and you get dungeonized?

Especially ... what happens with new subjects now?
News on fighting Prop 8, let's say - an article comes up.
Is this all now going to get sidelined into the new group?

OK -- well, best wishes but stay in touch!!!

:)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

63. Well, abortion threads don't get moved to the choice group and porn threads don't get moved

to the feminist group.

I see no reason why the GLBT group would be treated any different. Also, things get moved to Topic Forums, not to Groups. I've never seen anything moved to a group before.

[defendandprotect]

68. Okay . . . I see the difference now -- thanks!!

[David Zephyr]

65. Wow. We've progressed to a group now from a topic.

Or will we still be both? Congratulations, LostinVA.

[Autumn]

69. Count me in

this movement is important to us all. It is immoral for my friends and family members to be denied the same rights I have. " There comes a time when silence is betrayal."

[LeftyMom]

71. It looks like you have more than enough stars, but here's one more anyhow.

:thumbsup:

:off to go poke the recently resurrected one and get him to add his:

[flvegan]

72. GLBT Civil Rights Group. Rights delayed are rights denied

If the mission statement is going to quote MLK, and this is what we're really doing here, I think "Civil Rights" isn't just appropriate, it's needed.

So here's another "donor star" in support.

Regardless, looking forward to this group.

[uppityperson]

74. Great idea, great work, Group sounds really good and supportive

Groups can be much more limiting in the negative crap, as a non-gay supporter, this sounds very good. Rather like prochoice group has been nicer than choice forum.

[Morning Dew]

75. add my star if you still need it. nm

[justiceischeap]

76. Count my star too

Whether you need it or not. :)

[Lilith Velkor]

77. Yes please, add my star

Have we got 56 of 'em yet? :D

[bicentennial_baby]

78. LOL

[Duncan Grant]

80. LMAO. All these people support the group and there's no group. Queer people can't get a break.

I just have to laugh. :rofl:

[QC]

83. Are there enough of us still here to support a group? n/t

[enigmatic]

84. I'll add my star

I'll stand w/ you on this.

[QC]

85. Thanks! n/t

[NMDemDist2]

87. me too

i have a bright shiny star too!

:hi:

[Duncan Grant]

86. Still here.

Ready to pack my bags and move to the new group! :hi:

[bluedawg12]

88. Sure thing! n/t

[Duncan Grant]

89. kick

:kick:

[Duncan Grant]

90. Has this group been created and I can't find it?

It's Pride month for crying out loud, why can't LGBT members, Admin and the mods ally with one another to get this group up and running?

How hard do we have to make this?

[FreeState]

91. +1 its needed now

its almost impossible to discuss gay rights here in a supportive atmosphere.

[NMMNG]

92. Indeed

Not when you have people stalking and abusing you so they can win brownie points with the people they're trying to ingratiate themselves to.

[Duncan Grant]

95. Which is all about keeping a system of oppression in place because queers aren't like "us".

Aren't you glad this isn't a lifeboat? :scared:

[mitchtv]

96. Getting to seem like a lifeboat

with the latest round of lgbt ts's

[cbayer]

97. Duncan, it looks to me like Skinner asked for some clarity in the mission statement and

some input from the group supporting this as to what it should be named. Although I see some discussion of both of those issues in this thread, I don't see that there was consensus or that anyone sent him what he has requested.

Perhaps a new thread with the proposed mission statement and name for overall approval from those that are behind this.

I think admin and the mods are behind this, I just don't think the hold up is with admin at this point.

:hi:

[Duncan Grant]

98. Thank you, cbayer! Appreciate the feedback.

We'll regroup here with a specific mission statement and name.

Stand by... :hi:

[readmoreoften]

93. Add my star. /nt

[Irishonly]

94. Add my star

[LeftHander]

99. Ok....I like but what will the "group do"

Is to coordinated online advocacy campaigns...letter writing...calling etc? kind of thing

[Tektonik]

100. May as well lock this thread

or make it disappear.

[Rhythm]

101. Nah... we keep it bumped until the GLBTIQ RIGHTS group is not just lip-service!

Until it's REALITY instead of some idle "we'll get to it" thing.

[DKRC]

102. Bump!

:kick:

[mitchtv]

103. or until we all get TS'd

whichever comes first

[Tektonik]

104. That may not take too long.

[Rhythm]

108. If i get a 'cookie' for for such a thing, so be it.

I'm a fighter, and I don't back down, nor do i apologize for my life, or my insistence that GLBTs be treated equally under the laws of our land.

[mtnester]

105. Action kick

[dropkickpa]

106. Add mine, for whatever it's worth

I don't feel that glbt issues are particularly of any importance to most at this site, and we've seen time and again how easy it is to shit all over us with no guarantee of safety or support, so a group would make me feel a lot better and I'd most likely post there a lot more.

[Duncan Grant]

107. See new thread here: (link in message)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=141553&mesg_id=141553

[mtnester]

109. Kick to go next to the other request

[RetiredTrotskyite]

110. Count Me In!