If you won't forgive Obama for McClurkin

[soleft]

Are you also not forgiving Bill Clinton for his alledged 2004 advice to John Kerry to support gay marriage bans in key states?

I realize Hillary's running, not her husband, and that this is also a "he said, Shrum said" situation. But I haven't forgotton how much I appreciated John Kerry when it was first reported that he had rejected this advice from Bill Clinton. To me, advocating that strategy is far worse than anything the former president has said over the past several weeks.

I've been disturbed by Obama's connection to McClurkin since the announcement of the concert, but on the issue of gay rights, since no one intimately connected to his campaign has advocated supporting gay marriage bans, I will feel better voting for him in the GE than I will Clinton. And I will vote for Clinton as well, should she be the nominee.

Ameriblog sums it up for me:

"It gives me no joy to bash Bill Clinton. I cannot express sufficiently how much I admire the man's intellect and his political acumen. We had lunch with him last fall, and my first thought was "this is what a real president is like." He possesses so many of the qualities that our party and our politicians lack nowadays. But the man is politically amoral. Not immoral - amoral. And he, along with his amoral campaign aide Mark Penn, are the top advisers to Hillary Clinton's presidential run. And that should give every supporter of gay rights, civil rights, or any other issue, serious pause.

There's already a growing concern in the gay community that Senator Clinton, while "good on paper" on gay issues - and once considered remarkably good personally - will throw us under the bus if and when she becomes president. And let's be clear. We're not talking about some arcane tax policy issue. We're talking about our lives. Having the Democratic party's top two legislative gay-bashers as her top two advisers, men who will betray any cause, any principle, any supporter, for a bump in the polls (read more about Mark Penn's own loyalty problems here and here), does nothing to assuage those growing concerns.

PS And if I'm wrong, if Bob Shrum is wrong, if the senior Kerry-Edwards campaign official is wrong, if history is wrong, then let Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton publicly repudiate DOMA in its entirety."

http://www.americablog.com/2007/06/bill-clinton-reportedly-told-john-kerry.html

[jackpan1260]

1. I will vote for Obama. I would never vote for Hillary

They are both wrong on some issues, but Hillary is one of the most calculating, gutless Democrats to ever seek the nomination.

[soleft]

3. But she's a democrat

I cannot take another 4 years of republican rule. if she throws us under the bus, she throws us under the bus. Republicans have us in their headlights.

[Tyler Durden]

6. Democrats will throw the LGBT community OFF the bus...

The Republicans will push the LGBT community in front of the bus.

Shame on all of them.

[pauldg0]

23. I will only vote for Edwards...........

....the other two are scam artists and should not be nominated...period!!!

[dbackjon]

2. What does Michelle Obama say?

I am not voting for Bill. I may vote for Hillary, though.

[ginnyinWI]

4. I was on vacation for that whole news cycle

Could you give me a brief summary of what happened with Obama and this McClurkin person? I keep hearing about it but don't know the substance of what it was.

[soleft]

9. here's one link

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2007/10/obama-under-fir.html

[ginnyinWI]

15. thanks! n/t

[ZombieHorde]

10. Obama had a concert...

McClurkin was invited to sing, he is an ex-gay and believes that gays are sinners.

Many people told Obama that McClurkin was offensive and should not be allowed on stage.

Obama decided to keep McClurkin and add a gay minister to preform an opening prayer for the concert.

McClurkin ranted about gays during the concert.

Obama said that he strongly disagreed with McClurkin words, but did not apologize.

Some say that Obama is pandering to homophobes for votes, Obama says that we can not win over homophobes if we exclude them.

[ginnyinWI]

14. thank-you! n/t

[dsc]

17. a white gay minister

at an entirely black event.

[bigscott]

27. not just sinners

but that we can be changed - made straight - if we just saw the errors of our ways

FUCK THEM BOTH

[sunonmars]

5. Theres an old saying,

"Choose your battles wisely, lest you win the war"

One step at a time, I am so for gay rights but we must realise, it takes time to beat them into submission. Its happening but dont lose the war before we start.

Mclurkin is so different, thats just pure self hatred and nasty. I pity the man more than anything and Shame on Obama.

[AndyA]

7. I'm not so sure Bob Shrum is a good source.

He's said a few things about John Edwards that have been questioned by others who were present when certain events took place. Their memory of what happened doesn't match Shrum's, so he might not be a worthy reference.

The thing with Obama and McClurkin just shows what a hypocrite and bigot Obama is. I don't agree with this guy, but he's going to appear at one of my official functions, and preach about how prayer cured him of being gay.

Right, Barack. I've had enough hypocrisy and bigotry with Bush, and I'm not looking to extend it any longer.

Plus, Barack doesn't think Bush/Cheney have committed any grave or intentional breaches of authority, so he's against impeachment. OK...yeah, I want this guy in the White House with that attitude.

I will vote for Hillary, but I will not vote for Barack.

[Tarheel_Dem]

12. Also a John Edwards supporter, and I feel the exact opposite....

will never cast a vote for HRC.

[maddiejoan]

8. Until you understand

How much more dangerous the "ex-gay" movement is to the cause of LGBT rights than even DOMA was --you will not understand the actual issue at hand here.

[soleft]

11. Believe me I understand

So far the only politicians or ex politicians I trust are Kucinich and Gore.

[maddiejoan]

13. If you really understand

then your OP makes zero sense to me.

[soleft]

18. I wanted to know if people pissed off at Obama

myself included, and or people pissed off enough to not vote for him in the general election, myself not included, are equally pissed by what Clinton did in 2004. The reason I say I understand how the dangerous the movement is, is because I suffered clinicial major depression as a result of repressing my identity. I know that repression kills, and any attempt to repress oneself or live a lie in order to fit into society is a death sentence. I also know that if the gay marriage amendment ever made it into our constitution, I could no longer live in this country. Instead of killing ourselves we would become an even larger target to be killed by others.

I find both events, the McClurkin appearance and the Clinton strategy equally abhorent. As for Hillary or Obama, we won't really know what they will do until they are in office.

[maddiejoan]

19. DOMA

was a misguided attempt to keep a Federal Contitutional ban off the table in the wake of the 1996 Hawaii event of several gay couples suing for the right to legally marry.

Was it stupid? Yes.

Does Hillary intend to undo the stupidity, while safeguarding against a Constitutional Ban? Yes.

Do Obama and Edwards understand that we just go back to the dangers inherent in 1996 if they do a complete repeal? Doesn't look like they do.

For me, Hillary is the one that seems to understand the deeper issues here.

[soleft]

20. Okay, educate me on the DOMA situation

Or direct me to a link, please. I admit ignorance on the nuances you're referring to.

[maddiejoan]

21. I'll try --it's all very complex stuff :)

What people forget is that, it was, put into law by Congress as means to quash a movement by the GOP in Congress to enact a Constitutional Ban.

This is precisely what allowed same-sex marriages cases to be pursued within individual States.
In essence it opened the door because it created a "Full-Faith and Credit" exception which obviated
what was in 1996 becoming the the strong desire of same-sex marriage opponents for a full Constitutional Ban on same-sex marriages.

DOMA is bad law --one could even make the case that it was intentionally bad law --because it is completely Unconstitutional.
Most of the suits for same-sex marriage revolve around the 14th Amendment and the Full Faith and Credit Clause (2nd section of DOMA)

DOMA kept the ban from becoming "Constitutional"

Hillary's stance is to now repeal the section (section #2 , Full Faith and Credit Clause) that prevents civil unions from having "travelling rights" through the States.

It's a baby step --but it keeps a Constitutional Ban off the table

good place to begin your research --but please follow the links therein and draw your own conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

Examining DOMA is not for the light hearted --and I'm afraid that full repeal of DOMA would only return us to 1996 --and a huge backlash fight for a Constitutional Ban
(which would be impossible to undo if enacted as then it WOULD be Constitutional)

[soleft]

22. Thank you

I'm sure these are points that have escaped most interested parties' scrutiny.

[NMMNG]

25. Exactly

DOMA means we can't get federally recognized marriage.

The "Ex-Gay" movement seeks to eradicate us, in addition to wiping out all of our rights.

Big difference.

[meegbear]

16. I don't forgive either of them, thank you very bloody much ...

screw 'em both.

[Iggo]

24. Yes.

[readmoreoften]

26. How do I know that Bill and Hillary even speak in private let alone share opinions?

I don't trust Hillary Clinton, but Obama crossed an uncrossable line. I'm voting Edwards. Period.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. i think not being able to get married vs people who literally want to wipe us out

is a different scenario.

also very honestly 10-12 years have passed since clinton the man was in office. 10 years of progress w.in the gay rights movement. we cant go backwards.

i dont think hrc will take us backwards.

[soleft]

29. One form of programming is covert, the other overt

I was never the victim of organized reprogramming treatment, but I can say that the desire to be like everyone else, to have the same privileges and status in my family as my married sister coerced me into a straight marriage that left me a non functioning human being. There are probably as many gay people suffering in straight marriages because they felt it was the only way to have what their parents had, to have a family and children and feel a part of society, as people who have been officially brain washed through an ex gay ministry.

I feel like any of the democratic nominees will make progress in creating a better environment for people to live truthfully.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. i think the 12 years in between is also important.

[soleft]

32. The thing that Clinton did that angered me happened 4 years ago

Not 12.

[Zuiderelle]

30. Exactly right!

:thumbsup:

[TechBear_Seattle]

33. Indeed. It is better to be beaten and left for dead than to be murdered outright

That has become the choice in picking between Democrats and Republicans with regards to gay rights.

Frankly, I think both options are disgusting.


Edited for clarity.