I think we really do have different attitudes toward sex than straights

[Chovexani]

As evidenced by the shock and outrage (and let's face it, titillation) over McGreevey and his wife allegedly...having threesomes. :wow: Maybe this is just the bisexual slut in me talking, but is that REALLY something to clutch pearls over? I've heard of far worse in your average Savage Love column/podcast. :eyes:

Do you think it's because LGBTs are used to being marginalized over our sex lives, so we tend to be hesitant to condemn others over theirs? By the very act of being queer we are having to think "outside the box" so to speak, even if we are virgins for the rest of our lives we get the deviant label, so we're less willing to throw it around.

This whole episode (combined with the Scarlet Letter crap going on over Spitzer's escort) is just reminding me of that old Salt 'n' Pepa song, None of Your Business. I think some of the straight people went home early during that whole Sexual Revolution thing and missed it.

[hulklogan]

1. Straight people will jump at any chance to say "Ick!" about any kind of sex

other than what they're having themselves. It's just another way for them to play their superiority complex games. Sometimes I think some straight people would feel right at home in the Puritan era.

[closeupready]

2. I think gays and lesbians are getting tired of being tarred and feathered by

the same people who, on the one hand, represent themselves as Mr. or Mrs. Little Sexual Innocent and taking homophobic stands on policy, when they are the very same people with whom they are having sexual relations at the gym or in sleazy places and/or those who are going to prostitutes or doing the pool boy.

It's not fair, and in an evolving society, it's become less acceptable - not the fact that someone may be gay but the fact that they are being hypocritical.

[pnwmom]

5. I don't think Gov. McGreevey, a Democrat, took homophobic positions.

Are you aware that he did?

[closeupready]

11. No, not as with McGreevey.

My statement is meant in a more general sense.

[NMMNG]

3. For once one of us gets to say this..

It's the hypocrisy, silly! IOW, she capitalized on her role as the unaware, jilted, wronged wife. Now we find out that all along she was an active and willing participant in these trysts. Hence, she's a farking liar.

It has nothing to do with the threesomes in and of themselves, it has to do with her playing "poor me, my husband was cheating on me with dudes :cry:".

[pnwmom]

6. On the other hand, Teddy said that even he hadn't thought that

McGreevey was gay -- he just liked threesomes.

So it seems odd that he was sure Dina must have known that. If Teddy didn't know, why would Dina?

Also, I'm not sure I entirely believe Teddy's story. It's interesting that he took an expensive trip with McGreevey and his partner this summer. Maybe he's trying to help out a friend in his divorce trial?

[Chovexani]

9. LOL. I thought of that and cracked up.

After my first thought, which was: "damn, that's kind of hot."

Will be laughing ALL DAY.

[closeupready]

4. And also, let me add,

unprompted by myself, two heterosexual friends of mine (one male- married, one single female) raised Spitzer's case with me, asking if I'd heard about it, and then proceeded to tell me that (from the guy) every single man he knows has been unfaithful and fools around, and the woman said that in her experience, she thinks every man is a philanderer - when I tried to correct her and say "yeah, most men are probably" she shook her head vigorously and raised her voice, "no! ALL MEN cheat."

[pnwmom]

7. Your friend is hardly an expert on all men. n/t

[closeupready]

10. What I found interesting was that neither of my friends knows the other,

I did not solicit their opinions on the matter, nor had I planted any ideas a priori, they just came out with those statements, and the striking similarity of them is remarkable, IMHO. Doesn't mean much in terms of data points, but just thought I'd offer that here FWIW.

[pnwmom]

13. Hmmm . . . maybe it is the kind of people you end up with as friends?

I am the daughter of a narcissistic father. Thankfully, I didn't marry one -- but I somehow attract friends (including my husband) who suffered from the same kind of parents. If I projected my "data points" onto the general population, I'd think almost everybody had a narcissistic parent . . . but I know that can't be true!

[closeupready]

15. Well, I know I said "friends" but the reality is

that I am not associated with either of these people for strictly voluntary reasons, i.e., my relationship with both of them has origins which are as random as those of any relationship you have, so they are friends, but secondarily to other reasons for the existence of those relationships.

Anyway, no, I would not say you can generalize from my anecdotes, but I just found it interesting. :hi:

[terrya]

8. I read that story and immediately forgot about it.

That was a big "so what?" on my radar screen.

And I think what you said about us being marginalized over our sex lives is right on the mark. :thumbsup:

[plantwomyn]

12. It's only kinky the first time.

nt

[Chovexani]

14. Hee!

After that, it's just a Friday night.

[lightningandsnow]

16. "None of Your Business"

Indeed. My thoughts exactly.

I really never understood the fascination with other people's sex lives.

So thank you.

[Chovexani]

17. I can understand the hypocrisy angle

Because, honestly, she was full of shit if she was all "poor me, my husband messed with dudes" and it turns out she was right there with him. Own your kink, girlfriend. Not that it's anyone's business anyway.

But I saw a lot less outrage over the hypocrisy in that thread and more "ewwwww they're filthy bastards". To which I'm like, "uh, have you SEEN some of the fetishes out there? This is beyond tame." I can only conclude that these prudes are haters who are mad the McGreeveys got to act on the fantasies they secretly have but are too ashamed to act on.

I also have a suspicion that some of the gross out is due to the fact that this is more proof McGreevey is actually bisexual instead of gay, and bisexuals (especially bi men) give straight people the heebies. Because everyone knows bisexuals are all skeezers who spend our weekends swinging from the chandelier throwing our underpants all over the place. :eyes: Some of this smells like the old right wing "OH MY GOD PEOPLE ARE HAVING FUN, AND IN A WAY I DON'T APPROVE OF!" vapors.

[mondo joe]

18. Couple of things: 1. We're sensitive to the "sexual outlaw" status, and being judged

on the grounds of a purely personal act.

2. We're exposed to a lot more sexual diversity and - IMO - have a much better sense of the reality of sex in our culture. And I mean hetero sex too.

Personally, I feel like a holy confessor I've had so many hetero women tell me in detail about their sex lives, desires, fantasies and so on.

[Chovexani]

19. That's an interesting point.

I get the same thing from hetero women too.

[mondo joe]

21. There's some wisdom about the minority knowing more about the majority than

the majority does about the minority.

I'm confident that's true, in at least this case. We're better students of heterosexuality than they are of us.

Half the posts in GD sound like they're written by 50's housewives brandinshing rolling pins to keep "hubby: in line. I can't quite reconcile that with the women I know personally.

[Chovexani]

22. LOL, 50s housewives

I call them the pearl-clutcher brigade. It's funny when the men join in on it too.

It's interesting, because I'm in a triad with a man and another woman, but my relationship with my boyfriend doesn't resemble a hetero one in anything but the bits involved. I think because we're both bisexual and have had same-sex relationships we are not so hung up on gender roles and who is "supposed" to do things and how we're "supposed" to behave and feel.

[DarkTirade]

20. Not only that we're used to people saying 'ick' to us

but also in order to find our niche, we've had to do some exploring. So we've seen and met people who deal with sex differently than the 'norm' a lot more than average people.

[insleeforprez]

23. This is definitely true

but it is changing. As young gay people are becoming more and more accepted into 'mainstream' society, these effects are less marked. I can tell you that there is a large contingent of young gay people that blend into the straight world almost seamlessly, NOT because they are forced to hide their identity, but because that's how they naturally express themselves. I think that this means that "gay culture" of fashion and show tunes, and a freer view of sex, will slowly fade away.

To put it into the language that has been used in this thread: young gay people receive less of the ick factor of previous generations, they are not viewed as much as sexual outcasts. Obviously all of these issues still exist, but to a lesser extent than even 10 years ago.

[Chovexani]

24. The old prudes are also dying out, to put it bluntly

I'm 26 but I see things changing even from when I was younger, with the generation coming up behind me. It's a good thing.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Not just sex, but relationships, in general.

I saw so many posts about the recent 'scandals' and how infidelity would end the relationship. Not another relationship, but just a good fuck (or even a lousy one). Sometimes, I find myself asking "do these people not understand the difference between fucking and love?" Everyone should be able to determine the nature of their relationships, in doing so, others have to realize not all of us are going to follow the "one person/one person" formula.

It really is no surprise that so many have these puritanical views on sex and relationships. A woman (or gay man) who has multiple partners is reviled and mocked. But, a straight man doing the same is a "hero." Having an affair with someone of the same sex, while in a heterosexual relationship, is worse than just a "plain ole heterosexual romp." Anything other than "missionary style" is considered kinky. Prostitution (if single) is considered "nasty" and "sad," but fucking some 'hook-up' you bought drinks for all night is "a-OK." Mocking people caught in homosexual affairs, when they were thought to be straight, is funny and acceptable.

IMHO, there is only one thing really needed for a healthy relationship, open and honest communication. If anyone is interested, I will share how I started my 6-year and still on-going relationship. It is not pretty, I am, but the start of the relationship was not. :)

[mondo joe]

26. They all sound like howler monkeys trying to protect their turf to me.

If they'd just have more honest talks with each other it would do them a world of good. (And by "each other" I mean hetero women and men, as well as hetero couples with other hetero couples.)

[Chovexani]

29. Amen!

I'm poly so naturally I see things a bit different than most, but the hetero "norm" is so fucked up that I couldn't imagine doing it. The lying, the mind games, the passive-aggressiveness...god no wonder so many marriages end in divorce.

I had an extended conversation the other day with someone who swore up and down that she would never directly confront her husband about anything because, I swear to god, "it's not what a good wife does". :wtf:

I'd love to hear your story. I bet it's a good one. :P

[Behind the Aegis]

30. My story...

...it isn't all that interesting, but it did show how I had grown and was willing to stick to my guns. When I found my current partner (actually he found me), I had been through a really rough patch. We started dating and within a few weeks, we had a phone conversation and I had to go to a meeting, but I joked I was off to hump some hot guy. He got really upset. I called him later and told him in no uncertain terms I am well aware of the difference between love, sex, and flirting and to be with me he'd have to appreciate that fact about me. I told him if it bothered him, I wouldn't discuss it around him, but I would not stop flirting, nor would I not have sex with someone if that is what I wanted at the time. I said if he wanted to think about it, he could. He did and decided he wanted some "ground rules." I was cool with hearing them and we came to an agreement. Now, six happy years later, we own a home together, we have friends together, we have a life together, and we enjoy the lovely men of New Orleans, mostly with our eyes. :evilgrin:

It all came down to being honest with each other and ourselves. We both know our limits and the other's limits.

I told you, not that good...though there are sordid bits here and there.

[xchrom]

27. considering that many lgbt folk experinced ''mainstream''

relationships and along side their same sex experiences -- generally speaking we almost have to.

i know that's true in my case -- from 13 on i was having hetero experiences -- and having homo ones.

every one of course knew about the hetero ones -- one might say i made a point of it -- but there i was having sex with guys as well.

it has to give people a unique experience -- and btw i don't think that's changed with the new generation.

[TechBear_Seattle]

28. The difference is one of sex-negative vs. sex-positive.

My sex life is pretty boring, but I will admit: after a quarter of a century of being sexually active, I am not at all fazed by poly relationships, three-or-more-ways, casual pick-ups, leather as a sex toy, "Yeah, I've done porn" or anything else along those lines (as long as everyone is honest and plays safely.)

The problem, as I see it, is that most Americans see sex as something shameful, something to be kept extremely private. With the sole exception of a guy bragging to his close buddies about his latest "conquest," we are not allowed to discuss sex at all. The real shocker was not that McGreevy was gay: it's that he talked about it. It is not that Spitzer hired prostitutes; it's that his expensive habit became the subject of public discussion. It is not that Pat(t)erson and his wife had separate sex lives during a rough patch of their marriage, it's that they actually announced it, unprovoked, in order to keep it from becoming a greater scandal latter on.

Members of the GLBT community are part of a sexual minority; like it or not, we are defined by whom we have sex with. That makes our community, as a whole, a lot more sex positive. While we may keep our sex lives private in general, it is very difficult to do so when you are part of a small, sexually active and very social network of friends and aquaintances. Many of us have had to struggle to come to terms with ourselves, and that has given (most) of us a much healthier, more open and more accepting point of view with regards to sex. I think that is why, when America is clutching is collective pearls over the "scandals," we are scratching our heads and asking, "What is all the fuss about? He's cute; if I had to do his wife too, I'd be willing."