If you want to have a fit, try and have a factually accurate one.

[TheWraith]

It seems like this forum has become an extension of GDP in some ways, with non-stop candidate bashing and smearing of the most ludicrous kinds. Not to mention the continual hand-wringing over how you could never, never vote for so and so because you heard a rumor that they were friendly with a person who believed that the Bible was literally true.

You know, if somebody's going to have a fit of pique, then they're entitled to that. But all I'd ask is that you be factually accurate, and have a realistic perspective.

The unfortunate truth is that you can't throw a rock in American society without hitting somebody with anti-gay views, and you certainly can't move around the political sphere without dealing with some of them.

Yes, Hillary's prayer group includes Tom Coburn. Yes, Obama had an "ex-gay" singer perform at an outreach concert. Yes, so and so did such and such. And while none of those things may be particularly tasteful to me, I realize that it's pure insanity to hold a candidate responsible not for the things THEY have done, but for all the things ever done or said by anyone who supports or works with them.

It's no more fair than holding me responsible for the fact that someone I know is a hard-core lunatic Catholic who talks about miracles, or inferring that I believe the same things.

The bottom line is that some people here seem to be waiting for a perfect candidate to show up, who's totally pure and has never even spoken to anyone who they disapprove of. Fine. That's your right, and I'm sure we'd all be thrilled if such a person showed up. But if you choose to wait for that, then you don't get to complain that no steps are being taken in the meantime, when you yourself are unwilling to accept moving one step at a time.

Neither JFK nor LBJ was a perfect person, but they were in the right place at the right time to get the Civil Rights Act passed. That's been the case with the entire history of progress, because our leaders are human. If we waited for things to be perfect before doing anything, we'd still be living in caves.

I understand that a lot of people here are filled with rage and hatred, particularly for the religious fundamentalists who've made it their mission to create so much suffering. I hate their guts about as much as anyone. But I also recognize that taking that anger to our candidates over the fact that they're human is both fruitless and destructive.

In conclusion, please, cool off the hyperbole, and examine the real records of the candidates: what they've said, what they support, what legislation they've worked on. And think about how you'd feel if you were being held accountable for any opinion held by someone you know or work with, no matter how much you disagreed.

Both Clinton and Obama are rated 89% by the Human Rights Campaign. Both differed from the HRC on only one vote, in fact: extending immigration benefits of legal spouses to same-sex partners. Both cited the same concern, specifically the ease of immigration fraud, when they opposed the bill. Both have long and public records of their legislative support.

If you want to disagree, do so on the issues, not because of who they know or what their faith is.

[mitchtv]

1. They are both Useless

what scares me is the religious devotion of some Devotees. I don't buy into abstracts from politicians

Both better than Mc Same

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. My fundamental human rights are a make-or-break deal, end of story

I feel sorry for you that you refuse to hold the party to a higher standard.

[Maven]

3. Thanks for telling us "how it is," yet again, straight person.

Haven't you stirred enough shit here before?

[TheWraith]

6. Why do you assume I'm straight, and why do you dismiss dissent as "shit stirring"?

Frankly, I had hoped that getting cool-headed opinion might make some people relax about the whole situation.

[Maven]

8. Relax about the whole situation? How dare you belittle people's legitimate complaints

about their second-class treatment by the Democratic political establishment as "fits of pique?"

Here's a clue, champ: it's more than 40 years since Stonewall and almost 60 years since Harry Hay et al kicked off the gay rights movement, and it's still politically acceptable for politicians to slander us on the floor of Congress, to debate the "morality" of our very existence, and to engage the services of repugnant bigots who prey on our community and whose activities result in astronomically high rates of homelessness, suicide and violent attacks among our numbers.

Is it too much to ask for Democratic leaders to support my civil rights 100%, nearly 60 years on? Is that asking for too much purity? No, not in the slightest. It's not just time, it's long past time. Not tomorrow, not ten years from now. Today.

Instead of rebuking us for complaining about not getting enough, rebuke our feckless, apathetic leaders for not doing enough. Get your priorities straight. Until then, you can shove your "reality check."

[readmoreoften]

12. Fucking hetero assholes bringing their GDP bullshit into our forum.

Then having the balls to say "oh look your forum is beginning to look like GDP!" Yeah, because your presence is spooging it up.

[Toasterlad]

25. Huh huh.

You said "spooging".

Meanwhile, I totally agree.

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. If I could recommend a non-OP post, yours would get five stars

Excellently put. :applause:

[mondo joe]

15. Cool headed opinions are helpful when they are accurate. Just being cool headed

alone isn't enough.

[mondo joe]

4. Kiss my gay ass. I'll determine who my marginally better bets are based on whatever

information I consider relevant.

[hulklogan]

5. Ooooh we've been scolded by a straight

I feel so naughty!

You say it yourself, both candidates are almost exactly the same on what is, to me, the most important "issue." So when I choose who to support, it can only be based on something that you consider irrelevant, like whether one marches in a pride parade or whether one buys ads in LGBT newspapers.

Before you impale yourself on your factually accurate soapbox, please remember that McClurkin was HIRED by the Obama campaign to perform and MC at that event. It's not like McClurkin and Obama happened to run into each other on the street, or were both at a mutual friend's birthday party or something like that. Obama hiring McClurkin was something he did, and he is responsible for it. Clinton chooses to attend prayer meetings with Coburn, so she is responsible for her actions.

I don't hold people responsible for the views of their acquaintances, or even the views of their coworkers. I do, however, hold people responsible for the choices they make in freely associating with people whose views I find distasteful.

Is it too much to ask that we have a presidential candidate who really supports LGBT Americans? You straight people have had 43 Presidents who support YOUR agenda.

[TheWraith]

7. You're assuming that because I'm not having a fit, I'm straight?

I'm glad I don't share your low opinion of LGBT people's self-control.

I'd remind you that unless you live in a lighthouse, you also probably associate with people whos views you would find distasteful: if not on gay rights, then on the war, or taxes, or some other subject. Unless you rigorously vet every friend you have on every issue, then your purity test for candidates is by definition hypocritical.

[kdpeters]

9. Are you straight? It makes a difference.

Is this a discussion we're having "within the family" or are you presuming to tell us how we should think, feel, and act before you even try to listen. A lot can go unsaid or simply understood among folks who've experienced so much in common by virtue of being a sexual minority. I presumed you were straight because I got no impression from you that you take the issues deeply personally or that you "get it" and respect why many of us do. If you weren't straight, I'd expect that would already be clear to you.

I'm otherwise of the same mind with most of the substance of your OP, but I don't really care if we agree if you're disrespecting other GLBTs. So are you straight? If that's the case, just say so. Don't play coy. If you're coming from outside, at least make some attempt to respect that we likely are smart enough to think and decide for ourselves what's in our own best interest. If you're coming from within, then some of your comments can be put in perspective. If you're just a queer jackass, I'd take less offense than if you're presuming to lecture us from heterosexual privilege.

[WillParkinson]

10. Excuse me?

While I believe in your right to say what you want, and I will defend that right, you also have to accept what we say, whether you agree with it or not.

My friends do not have the power to pass laws on my life. They don't hold my right to marry my partner in the palms of their hands. They aren't able to say I cannot adopt a child. They can't tell me that I won't be able to serve in the armed forces.

The politicians, on the other hand, have that ability. And forgive me if I have expectations of them. And forgive me if I find them failing miserably.

And the people that politicians trot out to represent them, be they Democrat or Republicans, reflect on the candidate themselves. They can say that they don't agree with the stand that person might take, but all-in-all they are thereby linked to that person and the belief they hold. So, yeah, they should be making better choices.

[readmoreoften]

11. I'm assuming that you're straight because you've been here for years and never mentioned you're not.

So if you aren't then you're an opportunistic motherfucker who wants to use his sexuality to shill for his candidate. And if you're not--which, let's face it, you're not--you have some fucking unmitigated gall coming into the GLBT area and telling us what our forum is like. Frankly, if it looks like GDP it's because you straight assholes from GDP have invaded GLBT space to defend your 50% of our lame lineup. There are LGBT Obama supporters in here and for the most part we know who we all are and who we support and we treat each other with respect until you assholes come in and invade our space.

So why don't you get the fuck out of here and stop trying to bring a GDP style flame war into this space. Dickhead.

[hulklogan]

21. I choose my friends. I wouldn't be friends with someone who hates LGBT Americans

It's as simple as that.

I can't choose who I work with, but I won't go out for drinks after work with the people I don't like.

[foxeyes2]

13. Not throwing a fit

But I am tired of candidates who want our money, our time, and our votes but do want to support our full equality. I am an American and I am entitled to the same rights and privileges as my straight brothers, coworkers, and neighbors. I should not have to wait until some magical day when the Great Straight Father decides from the goodness of his heart to bestow it upon me as if it is a gift when in reality it is my birthright. As a gay man not only do I have the right to speak out against those who would continue my oppression but it is my duty to myself and to my GLBT brothers and sisters. It is my duty to the teenage boys and girls who are just coming into awareness of who they are so that when they come of age their full participation at the table will be guaranteed.

I make no apology for calling out any politician who uses homophobic people in their campaign or racist or sexist or any other division. Senator Obama did that and he should be confronted over it.
He should be ashamed of himself.

I do not think that Senator Clinton is much better on the issues and her assocaition with The Fellowship is extremely disturbing to me.

Come November I will vote for the Democratic Candidate because I don't believe we can endure another 4 years of Republican rule but I will do so with a heavy heart and wounded spirit. We as GLBT Americans deserve better.

[xchrom]

16. thanks for your concern.

:eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. what condescending crap.

[MuseRider]

18. You come into this forum

and tell GLBT members what to do and how to do it and you want to be well thought of for your cool mind? How about this. Use that cool mind and try to put yourself in this place and then think how you would act or think. If you can't do that then you cannot be thought of as an ally. If you can't respect the views of many on this forum then you are not an ally. Allies listen and work to make certain that those they are allied with get what they need/want/should have. "I understand that a lot of people here are filled with rage and hatred" apparently you do not understand shit if you think basic human rights are something GLBT need to be more rational about.

[meegbear]

19. Here's a fairly fit about your post ...

Fuck Off.

[TechBear_Seattle]

20. I read your title and saw "fairy fit"

For just a moment, I envisioned you in a shouting match with Jack from "Will & Grace."

And lest the humor-impared take offense: keep in mind that the Stonewall Riots, whick kick-started the modern gay rights movement, started with a handful of fed-up drag queens pitched a fairy fit brought on by a police raid. :hi:

[Tyo]

22. If people like you are our allies...

we sure don't need any enemies.

[terrya]

23. 3 recommendations for more of the "get over it, will you?" thing?

No thanks. I don't think we need to have you coming in here and telling us what to think.

[Toasterlad]

24. Your Message Is Neither Needed Nor Wanted.

Every fucking forum on DU is full of candidate bashing, with the POSSIBLE exception of the Knitting forum, which I'm not allowed to go into because I'm a man*. Go broker the peace somewhere else, where the people don't have a LEGITIMATE reason to be pissed at both these scumbag candidates.

I don't care where and when people fight about Obama and Clinton, as long as we all agree they suck on gay issues.

*private joke.

[NMMNG]

26. Don't come here and lecture us

I'm not ever voting for your asshole candidate, and your condescending bullshit isn't going to change anything.