What do you think of Rev Wright's claim that the government invented HIV to infect people of color?

[ruggerson]

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[aquart]

5. See? That's what I asked the other day. Where's the link?

[rusty charly]

6. !

http://www.slate.com/id/2186860/

[galledgoblin]

22. thanks for the link (n/t)

[LakeSamish706]

Unless you have proof otherwise, I am with Rev. Wright. n/t

[aquart]

7. So the gay white men where just collateral damage?

Because I really don't like to think of the men I lost that way.

[soothsayer]

12. Yeah, I think that was an unintended consequence.

[gaspee]

32. What?

Now I've heard it all! I thought DU couldn't get any weirder.

[Toasterlad]

51. Unless You Have Proof Otherwise, I Believe That Bears Can Talk.

[jkshaw]

2. He did not say that.

Don't be an nincompoop.

[ruggerson]

9. Yes he did

and this question is posed in the GLBT forum.

[gaspee]

33. YEs, he did

Get your head out of the sand.

[jwirr]

4. I am no expert on this but I will admit that it is possible that the gov.

was experimenting with biological warfare ideas and experimented on brown people - specifically in Africa. I would not put it past the same people who did the Tuskegee Experiment.

[ruggerson]

8. There's about a thousand links

http://religionblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/04/the-rev-jeremiah-wright-and-ai.html

One of the most controversial soundbites from sermons by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright is one where he accused the US government of using AIDS as a tool for genocide against blacks. It's a position with significant support among blacks and almost zero support among AIDS researchers. He was asked about it at the National Press Club today. And just as he has not backed down a nanometer over the last few days from anything else he'd said, he is utterly unapologetic about this issue. I'll post the quote from today at the jump, along with a bit of analysis.

MODERATOR: In your sermon, you said the government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. So I ask you: Do you honestly believe your statement and those words?

[flor de jasmim]

10. It's not an outrageous leap / read this article on eugenics

Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through various forms of intervention.<1> Throughout history, eugenics has been regarded by its various advocates as a social responsibility, an altruistic stance of a society, meant to create healthier and more intelligent people, to save resources, and lessen human suffering.

Earlier proposed means of achieving these goals focused on selective breeding, while modern ones focus on prenatal testing and screening, genetic counseling, birth control, in vitro fertilization, and genetic engineering.

For the rest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

In response to that question at the National Press interview/inquisition he mentioned the title of a book from which he originally got the idea, or which supports it, but I didn't quite catch it.

[okasha]

11. Given that the first known case of AIDS dates from 1959

and the structure of retroviruses wasn't understood until the 80's, the good Rev's round the bend on this one. You can't build a thing if you don't have the plans.

[soothsayer]

14. They just engineered it after that. They don't invent things, after all, just exploit them.

[okasha]

16. "Inventing" it was precisely Wright's accusation.

He also appears to believe that Israel and South Africa were developing bombs that could somehow obliterate Arabs and blacks while not affecting Israelis and whites.

In a word: whackdoodlery.

[gaspee]

34. I'm shaking my head

At the ignorance on this post.

Thank you for posting a scientific fact - but it won't be accepted. Talk about jumping the shark.

[grassfed]

13. research Dr Salk, polio vaccine tests, Belgian Congo, monkeys

[soothsayer]

15. We know the military asked congress for funding for race specific viruses to use as weapons.

So...why is it so hard for people to believe? "We" need to clear out Africa so we can get at the bread basket and all the other good natural resources there. You think it's a coincidence we're establishing an Africa Command?

[TheWraith]

50. Actually that's not true. No such thing was ever funded or funding requested.

It was an idea that was bounced around a couple times, mostly by the PNAC and other right-wing think tanks. But it was never a serious idea because there's no known way to target a disease against a specific race.

[MNBrewer]

17. It sounds like something beyond

Beyond the capability of current science. (i.e., science fiction).

[Pirate Smile]

18. No and neither does Obama.

[MNDemNY]

19. ...

:tinfoilhat:

[Name removed]

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[ccharles000]

21. I am not sure if he said this or not.

But if he did he is not alone. I do not believe that our government invented it some gay people do.

[galledgoblin]

23. I think that if the government ever medically tested on gays

the way it did on blacks in Tuskegee, we'd be blaming the government for AIDS well.

I also think that Rev. Wright kicks ass, and that he likely does not completely believe EVERYTHING he says, he's just getting people talking and rabbling rouses.

[JackBeck]

28. And it didn't just start with Tuskegee.

Dr. J. Marion Simms, considered the father of modern day gynecology, was experimenting on slave women, even after anesthesia became available, in order to offer better treatment to white women.

[Solon]

24. Anyone who advances such a so called theory is an idiot!

Fuck I hate ignorant people! :grr:

[JackBeck]

27. You're not accounting for historical underpinnings.

While I don't ascribe to Rev. Wrights statement, I can understand where he's coming from because of cultural competency.

[Solon]

31. I know that, but its like blaming the Czar of Russia for nuclear bomb testing in Tunguska...

in other words, its something people are ascribing to people in government that was IMPOSSIBLE to do at the time. The Government couldn't have invented, modified, or otherwise create HIV, that's simply outside the realm of possibility.

ON EDIT: My problem is that these HIV conspiracy theorists end up following other more dangerous beliefs. When the Wright story first broke, it was the first time I had to debate people on this board you thought HIV didn't cause AIDS, that AIDS was caused by, as they put it, "something other than blood". I fucking lost it, told them that its attitudes like theirs that is the reason why AIDS kills people today.

[JackBeck]

37. We're basically on the same page, but I guess I should clarify.

When I refer to cultural underpinnings, I'm speaking in relation to culture competency. Communities of color have historically been abused by not only the government, but also medicine, which in turn makes them extremely skeptical of clinical trails and even attending regular check-ups with a PCP. Communities of color are disproportionately underrepresented when acquiring new treatments, and disproportionately represent those using emergency rooms for health care.

There's a reason for all this and it's due to the deep-seated mistrust that has been established over centuries. Even though I disagree with Wright's statement, I can appreciate his frame of reference, due to the cultural underpinnings of the African-American/Black experience in this country.

[Solon]

40. And that's exactly the reason why we need to slam Wright over that, if nothing else...

Hell, I agree with you, hell I even agree with Wright on most of the things he says, except this, this is an exception because attitudes like the one he displays kills people because they don't seek treatment and don't practice prevention. There's a reason why African Americans are the hardest hit, right now, with the HIV virus in the United States, and that reason is denial. There is rampant homophobia in the community, pressuring gay black men to be on the "down low" and because they are in denial about their sexuality, they do not protect themselves during sex. These are men who marry or date women to keep up appearances, and they end up spreading the virus to them as well.

The fact is that education is the key, and blaming the government for HIV is counterproductive, for it leaves the real reasons why it is spreading in the background. Ultimately, we should be educating people on using preventive methods to slow the spread of HIV, to save lives, and that's why I so voraciously attack Wright over this. Its not even a reasonable belief, and as I said, it will cost lives. Look at us, we are debating bullshit on this forum when we should be talking about condom use and access, or the lack thereof, in Africa and other places in the world.

[JackBeck]

44. Great post!

The only part I'd disagree with is "slamming" those that ascribe to these beliefs, because at the end of the day, even when presented with scientific facts (think: global climate change denialists, "intelligent design", 9/11 Truth Movement...) regardless of the manner in which presented, people are going to believe what they want about governmental involvement.

But the other options you stated are spot on. Getting into African-American/Black churches has been a goal of mine for about 3 years. And only recently been able to crack that shell.

"The fact is that education is the key, and blaming the government for HIV is counterproductive, for it leaves the real reasons why it is spreading in the background."

Took the words right out my mouth. Literally. I say this all the time in my workshops! We can sit around bitching and moaning about the government's involvement, but where does that leave us? Are you using this as a barrier to treatment?

It sounds like you come from more of a prevention background, where I come from a treatment background. We'd make a great team!

[nomorenomore08]

25. Of course it's "tinfoil hat" territory, but I can totally understand Wright's paranoia.

Someone upthread mentioned the Tuskegee experiment, in which black men were unknowingly infected with syphilis, and essentially left to rot for decades. I wouldn't put anything past a government conscienceless enough to do that.

But someone else made the point that the creation of the AIDS virus "from scratch" is beyond the capability of current science, let alone science 30 years ago, rendering the whole thing a form of science fiction. So Wright's claim is somewhat believable in theory, but impossible in reality.

[JackBeck]

26. The men who were part of Tuskegee

Were not unknowingly infected with syphilis.

These men already had syphilis, which was left untreated, even after the creation of penicillin.

It may seem like parsing details, but it's an important point to make. The government was still grotesquely responsible to the families affected by this multi-decade observational study, but the government didn't inject this STD in the participants.

[nomorenomore08]

47. I guess I did have my facts wrong somewhat. Sorry, guys.

But it still stands as an example of the sort of callousness a government is capable of when it just doesn't give a shit about its citizens.

[JackBeck]

48. Agreed.

Have you heard of the mass steralization campaign in Peurto Rico after WW I?

:puke:

[nomorenomore08]

49. Yes I have, not to mention the fact that the American eugenics movement was centered

in my home state of California. And maybe worst of all, the fact that the eugenics programs in this country helped lay the groundwork for similar programs in Hitler's Germany. And we all know what that eventually led to.

[gaspee]

35. Get a clue

They were not infected by the government - they already HAD syphilis and were not given treatment so they could "study" the long term effects of syphilis.

Damn, but people are freaking ignorant!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. so deliberately using people w.out their consent as guinea pigs is ok?

[JackBeck]

38. No, it's just as bad.

But it's important to be factually correct when speaking on such matters.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. i agree about being factually correct. i just dont think you should go around

saying "get a clue" "damn these people are ignorant" for a small factual error. yes, they were not infected by the govt but they were deliberately not treated, which to a degree shows the same type of callousness and disregard.

[JackBeck]

45. Yeah, the inflammatory rhetoric/personal attacks are getting tiresome.

Calling people "stupid" is my least favorite.

I attended this great workshop on Friday called "Building Bridges to Cultural Competency" and I haven't been able to shake the experience. Over the weekend, I found myself wanting to apply what was presented to the whole Wright kerfuffle, but decided it would be a waste of time, given the number of knee-jerk contrarians that have been hanging around DU as of late.

[Toasterlad]

53. STOP SAYING "CULTURAL COMPETENCY"!

Just kidding, Jack. Go on with your bad self. :pals:

[gaspee]

39. Ya know

Until I saw your name, I almost posted to your reply...

"Are you fucking STUPID? Did I say that anywhere in my post? Clearing up a factual error does not mean I support the very real actions."

BUt then I saw your name and thought - hey, she doesn't usually act like that (false logic and accusing me of something I did not say) so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

So here's my answer--

Do you really think I support that? Really? Honestly? Truly? If you do, please put me on ignore.

It's unbelievable to me that my pointing out the actual historical facts of the study leads you to believe that I support that study.

That's bordering on delusional.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. no i don't but the way you originally stated your point was unnecessarily rude

you can clear up a factual error without being an ass about it

[gaspee]

43. And that's why

I pretty much left DU for awhile - but it's raining out today and I'm bored to death and I started browsing DU and post after post with falsehoods about Clinton and attacks on her - all without any basis - have driven up my blood pressure and have me halfway 'round the bend.

My temper is getting away from me, just being here lately does that to me -- and I thought the GLBT forum was a fairly safe place to visit - but I was wrong.

And you're right - I was an ass.

Which is why I might go clean the house or something - anything to get me off of DU and back on the wagon with my not reading or posting here.

The scurrilous attacks on a woman who has worked her entire life for Democratic ideals and the free passes Obama gets here at DU have me pretty pissed off and bringing me right down to the type of behavior I loathe. Thank you for pointing that out.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. ahhyou were in GDP..that explains it!

:hug:

[Occulus]

56. Off-topic, but here's a tip:

Hide GD: P. Completely.

DU suddenly gets a lot better.

[JackBeck]

29. While I don't ascribe to this line of thinking

I completely understand why he believes that this could be true.

My organization provides HIV health education primarily (over 90%) to communities of color. Whenever I do HIV 101, I do a list-building activity with the participants on where they think/or heard where they think HIV came from or was spread. Wanna know the first thing to come out of just about anyone's mouth? "The government created HIV as a pop. control device". And this was happening at workshops WAAAYYYY before Wright made this statement.

It would be easy to try and discredit anyone that says something that may be uncomfortable or "out there", but one cannot easily poo-poo away something that in certain cultures have deep, historical underpinnings.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. its says a lot more about the treatment of blacks by whites, than it does anything else

[Toasterlad]

52. It's Irresponsible and Dangerous

There are plenty of real reasons for black people to be angry at the government without making up batshit crazy reasons.

[xchrom]

54. it's horrifying -- and lest we forget

what crime the government did commit re: hiv -- they ignored it while it burned so very, very many.

black churches helped to promulgate the notion that it was a gay white persons disease while ignoring the flood in their own community.

when it comes to hiv -- there is blood splashed EVERYWHERE -- that wright helps fling it about is horrifying.

[Sandaasu]

55. Unlikely

While I'll say that there's something to many claims of this sort, that specific one is very unlikely. While HIV is likely the result of something humans did, it was almost certainly an accident.