Connecting the dots...

[ellius101]

Just saw a great editorial on Americablog.com. In fact it got me thinking, I think it should be our line of attack on the mormons and catholics next time they come after us, which they will, in our fight for equality.
We need to hit back hard and FRAME THE ARGUMENT on our terms!!

http://www.americablog.com/2008/11/unholy-catholic-mormon-alliance-isnt.html


Sunday, November 16, 2008
The unholy Catholic-Mormon alliance isn't limited to gay bashing. They share a history of covering up sex abuse of children.
Joe Sudbay (DC) · 11/16/2008 05:45:00 PM ET ·


Yesterday's NY Times piece, which documented the major role played by the Mormon church in Proposition 8, also included this tidbit:
First approached by the Roman Catholic archbishop of San Francisco a few weeks after the California Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in May, the Mormons were the last major religious group to join the campaign, and the final spice in an unusual stew that included Catholics, evangelical Christians, conservative black and Latino pastors, and myriad smaller ethnic groups with strong religious ties.

Shortly after receiving the invitation from the San Francisco Archdiocese, the Mormon leadership in Salt Lake City issued a four-paragraph decree to be read to congregations, saying “the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan,” and urging members to become involved with the cause.

“And they sure did,” Mr. Schubert said.
We've learned one thing over the past couple weeks: The Mormons hate the kind of scrutiny they've been getting. But, it's only just begun. And, there's so much material. So much.

But, I am intrigued by the pairing of the Catholics and the Mormons. If I know one thing about Catholics, they don't like being linked with cults -- and most Catholics think the Mormons are a cult. That may sound harsh, but I grew up Catholic and I know how Catholics think. Not sure how many Catholics are comfortable with Mormon teachings, like that whole posthumous baptism of Jewish Holocaust victims, but the California's Catholic bishops needed money to bash gays.

So, the Catholic hierarchy in California decided to cut a deal with a group who most Catholics don't really consider a religion, but, when it comes to gay bashing, nothing is off-limits. The Catholics don't have much spare cash these days because they've spent hundreds of millions to settle sex abuse cases. The Archdiocese of Los Angeles paid out $660 million in 2007.

But, that also got me thinking of things the Catholic hierarchy has in common with the Mormon leaders. They're both very aggressive when it comes to covering up the sex abuse of children, of course. The Mormons and the Catholics both have gone to great lengths -- and great expense -- to hide this problem.

We know how widespread the Catholic problem is. But, the Mormons have done a better job of hiding abuse.....
full article at:

http://www.americablog.com/2008/11/unholy-catholic-mormon-alliance-isnt.html

[Smarmie Doofus]

1. They are twin evils...or evil twins... but I'm not sure he's connected the dots.

The fact that these two.... let's call 'em "sects" and not "cults" for now...share an odd, peculiar ( even for American Christianity), suspicious, and almost single-minded obsession with open homosexuality says *something* about these organizations, but I'm not sure the article succeeds in making the case that their antipathy hinges on their shared history of child abuse.

I suspect it IS connected but I'm not sure pointing it out is the same as "connecting" the dots.

There's more work to be done if we're going to discredit them as insitutions... or even just discredit their activism ( if you can call it that) on these issues. Otherwise we run the risk of creating ad hominem arguments in response to their slanderous ones. Or even of... umm ...Catholic/ Mormon bashing. ( Oh, the humanity!)


I did get a kisk out of this:
>>>If I know one thing about Catholics, they don't like being linked with cults -- and most Catholics think the Mormons are a cult.>>>>>>

Right. Ya gotta keep an eye out on those crazy *cults*.

[ellius101]

3. What I meant by my post....

The yes on 8's blindsided the No on 8 campaign with their slimy commercials about 10 days before the election, saying that gay marriage would be bad for kids. Quite ironic when you think about it.
Unfortunately they framed the debate on their terms. and theyre gonna try it again!!
Imagine if the No on 8's come up with their own commercial telling the catholics and mormons to "focus on their own families ie clean up pedophilia in their own houses'!
Frame the debate this time on different terms and come out swinging!

[xchrom]

2. this is a great example of why anti-gay bigotry is not like any other.

groups who under other conditions would strive mightly to annhilate each other will unite to do damage to the lgbtiq communtity.

our struggle for right ISN'T like others -- nor are we really related when you you consider this.

an unpopular opnion here.

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. There are actually a lot of parallels to Jews in Europe.

>>>>>groups who under other conditions would strive mightly to annhilate each other will unite to do damage to the lgbtiq communtity.>>>>>>

Most scholars of Christianity would agree that antisemitism served that very function: a scapegoat toward which aggressive energies could be channeled. And fault lines that existed within Christianity could be backburnered or papered over. Eventually the fault lines broke anyway via the Reformation and Christians started fighting amongst themeselves in earnest. This worked to the long-tterm benefit of the Jews in Europe since the Reformation led ultimately to Jewish emancipation... albeit a couple-three hundred years later.

Not many good parallels in American history... I would agree.

[xchrom]

5. christian didn''t stop trying to exterminate each other while trying to

exterminate jews -- jews -- in the old world context would hold no truck with lgbtiq folk either.

remember their is NO modern lgbtiq identitiy until the late 19th century 00 and ther is NO precedent for the universal agreement
for lgbtiq discrimination.

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. There were fissure and cracks in Christianity from its inception.

christian didn''t stop trying to exterminate each other while trying to

exterminate jews -- >>>>>

Stands to reason that having a subset of millions of unbelievers... Jews... in their midst would tend to reinforce... and not further erode... the consensus that Christians shared about the cosmos: i.e. Jesus, Son of God... etc.






>>>>jews -- in the old world context would hold no truck with lgbtiq folk either.>>>>


Without a doubt but that's not my point. My point is that they, European Jews , are a prototype as scapegoats for what GLBT's are experiencing in the USA today.

Not that Jews were sympathetic to homosexuality. They were scapegoated for reasons completely unrelated to the reasons we are scapegoated today. But the *manner* in which they were scapegoated is reminiscent, and a lot of the social dynamics of the process are the same.

>>>>>remember their is NO modern lgbtiq identitiy until the late 19th century 00 and ther is NO precedent for the universal agreement
for lgbtiq discrimination.
La Lioness says i'm Princess Spice. So there.>>>>


Yes to all of the preceding. But Jews in Europe came pretty close to a situation where there was universal animosity toward them in Christendom... at various times in history.

[xchrom]

7. and i'm saying that when it comes to lgbtiq people --

everyone will hold hands in agreement -- lets discriminate against them.

even groups who would normally be pretty uncomfortable in each others company - so to speak - will eagerly come to together to discriminate against us.

we're the only model for that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. be careful.. or someone will label you an anticatholic bigot

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=8239103