In Mexico, beyond gay and straight

[Ellen Forradalom]

A fascinating article and slideshow about "muxes," men who identify as women in a community who accepts them, in the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/weekinreview/07lacey.html?ref=weekinreview

[davidinalameda]

1. this has nothing to do with gay or straight

it has to do with gender identity not sexual orientation

as a gay man, I have no issue with my gender identify and I would bet that the vast majority of gay men don't

just like the vast majority of lesbians and bisexuals don't

[Warpy]

2. Apparently they're not all transgender

per the article. There are also some living in "bloke mode."

The acceptance in the region is remarkable, though.

[pnwmom]

3. Maybe that's why the title is "beyond" gay or straight?

:shrug:

[davidinalameda]

4. gay and straight are sexual orientations

gender identify is separate not beyond

[pnwmom]

7. What would you say is the orientation of the man who is in love

with one of these muxes? (Assuming the muxe is still biologically male.) Wouldn't he be gay?

And the muxe herself -- if this person is still physically a man, and in love with another man -- isn't he a gay man (who also identifies with women or feels more comfortable dressing as a woman) ?

I don't think it's so easy to separate people into the simple categories of gay and straight, or to say that transgender people are a completely separate category.

[davidinalameda]

10. not necessarily

from my understanding, just because someone is physically one gender doesn't mean that they don't identify as another

to put it bluntly, just because you have certain parts doesn't mean that you're whatever

I've seen personal ads placed by people who were technically women but they considered themselves men-they haven't had the full sex change yet

from my understanding, you're seeing more people who aren't going through with the full sex change because it's so expensive or because they don't believe that body parts define whether or not you're a man or a woman

these people live as women; they are women in my book even though they still have male genitalia

[FreeState]

8. Its not related but its also can be "beyond," its estimated 50% of trans people are gay or lesbian

their sexual orientation is very much a part of their identity and experience as a transgendered person - to those that are both it is very much "beyond" sexual orientation.

[bluedawg12]

16. I think gay and transgender can over lap, but still seem seperate.

If a XY man self identifies as a woman and is attracted to men and lives life as a female, is that homosexuality or simply appropriate attraction for to self identified female who happens to be XY?

Then, there are stories about XY men who marry, then go through sex reassignment treatment to express themselves as women, but remain married to their wives. Is that still heterosexuality?

I am confused, but trying to understand.


A transwoman with "XY" written on her hand, at a October 2005 protest in Paris.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Transgender_vs._Sexual_Orientation

>>Gender identity and transgender identity are fundamentally different concepts to that of sexual orientation. Transgender people have more or less the same variety of sexual orientations as cisgender people.<44> In the past, the terms homosexual and heterosexual were used for transgender folks based on their birth sex.<45> Professional literature now uses terms such as attracted to men (androsexual), attracted to women (gynosexual), attracted to both or attracted to neither to describe a person's sexual orientation without reference to their gender identity.<46> Therapists are coming to understand the necessity of choosing terms with respect to their clients' gender identities and preferences.<47><48><<

[Clintonista2]

5. huh?

If I were a woman who identifies as a man, it's probably pretty certain that I would be attracted to women. Gender identity and sexual orientation are linked.

[davidinalameda]

9. if you identified as a man

you wouldn't necessarily consider yourself a lesbian because lesbians are women, no?

the article isn't talking about men who play dress up once in a while

they identify as women; that is gender identify, not sexual orientation

gay men identify as men

lesbians identify as women

I don't pretend to understand transgender people; that is something so foreign to me that I just accept it

[IndianaGreen]

17. Not true!

I saw this documentary on Logo about transgender people. They showed this handsome man who had transitioned from female, yet he was attracted to men.

Sexual orientation is disconnected from any gender identity or intersex issues, which are many.

On edit:

Considering the high cost of these surgeries, I am not surprised that poor people in other countries haven't had their surgeries.

The only country that provides free sex reassignment surgery is Cuba.

[donco6]

18. No.

If you're a woman who identifies as a man, you are seeking the opposite sex. You are most definitely not gay.

[readmoreoften]

19. Not true.

Plenty of trannyfags (as they call themselves). Especially, for some reason, in NYC.

[GodlessBiker]

12. I think gender and the "public's" belief of what that identity "should" entail has a lot to do...

with "gay or straight." It is old identity perceptions that form a part of homophobia.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. yes but if the acceptance for trans people are so high, one assumes the acceptance

for gay people are not too far behind

in general trans people and gender deviant people are more persecuted than gender conforming gays/lesbians

butch girls and femme boys get far more bashed and ridiculed than femme girls and butch men.

[Ellen Forradalom]

15. That was the NYT's headline for their slideshow

I just wanted to share a fascinating glimpse into a completely different mindset than what so many people think of as "normal."

[TlalocW]

6. There's a tribe in Oaxaca state

Where the women run it, and it's a matter of pride if a woman's son is gay... At least that's what a small pamphlet primer I picked up in a Spanish-Language school there told me when I was taking my last Spanish class in college.

TlalocW

[HillWilliam]

11. I've always thought that human sexual expression and experience

are wider than a rainbow in shades of variance. There seems to be some emerging science to back this idea up. I was listening to an interview on NPR about a month(ish) ago where the term "mosaic" was used. It seems that the traditional idea of XX or XY "and that's it" isn't entirely correct and that there are people with XXY or XYY or other variations -- and that this is a perfectly normal condition. It would further seem to follow that a panoply of sexual identity, sexual expression, or sexual orientation is also a perfectly normal state of being. Forcing people into strictly-male or strictly-female "traditional" roles (whatever TF those are supposed to mean) may be more harmful than simply accepting biological fact that variations are normal, part of life, and perfectly valid human expressions.

In short, once again the wackogelicals are full of it, clinging to mythos instead of science. Being more harmful to a healthy society than producing any good in it, they just need to STFU.

That's one hillbilly's firm (and totally non-scientific) opinion :D

[bluedawg12]

14. Good info at transgender atty's web site:

The web site is full of good info. including the attorney's own story.

http://transgenderlegal.com/

Here are some definitions from that web site:

http://transgenderlegal.com/cider1.htm

>>Therefore, “transgender” is a political term created to fill the need for self-definition by the transgender community. It is an umbrella term most fully defined by the San Francisco Human Rights Commission Report.<84> The report reads, in part, as follows:

he term Transgender is used as an umbrella term that includes male and female cross dressers, transvestites, female and male impersonators, pre-operative and post-operative transsexuals, and transsexuals who choose not to have genital reconstruction, and all persons whose perceived gender and anatomic sex may conflict with the gender expression, such as masculine-appearing women and feminine-appearing men.<85>

All other terms—cross-dresser, transvestite, transsexual—are subsets of the umbrella term transgender.<86>

Notice in the above definition that gender-variant people are included in the definition of transgender. This inclusion is especially true of lesbian, gay and bisexual persons who are “read” or perceived to be “queer” because they present in a manner at variance to the gender that they are assumed to be. People often incorrectly draw a line between transgenders, who are incorrectly assumed to be homogeneously heterosexual,<87> and homosexual people, some of whom go “butch” or do “drag,” but are assumed not to be transgendered.<88> This line is ludicrous. There is a huge overlap of transgenders into all communities. Some have successfully argued that when the dust settles and all transgenders come out of their closets, it will be seen that sexual orientation, being straight or gay or bisexual, is a subset of gender identification.<89><<

<snip>

>>A review of medical literature and the social culture shows that transgenders experience slow but continuing, progressive gains in the medical arena and society at large. Outdated medical thinking<18> still exists in some ways,<19> but the medical gatekeepers are meeting an increasingly healthy transgender population that does not need “clinical treatment”<20> and is not guilt-ridden.<21> Indeed, transgendered physicians are emerging and educating their medical peers.<22>

Even in the recent past, however, transgenders have been subjected to hate, violence and discrimination. They are targeted by religious groups, which often speak out against extending any protections to transgenders.<23> Tragically, transgenders continue to be the victims of frequent hate crimes.<24> In some instances, inaction by police or other government officials leads to the untimely deaths of transgender victims.<25> Transgender activists continue to seek a hate crimes category for transgenders that is separate from the hate crimes category for homosexuals.<26> Transgendered people continue to be subjected to various forms of discrimination and are often confronted with problems finding shelter or gaining access to health care.<27>

Although transgenders are not universally loved and embraced by all members of society, life has slowly and painfully improved for the transgender community as a whole. Transgenders are politically reintegrated with the lesbian, gay, and bisexual community,<28> and are coming out to lobby their municipal governments,<29> state legislatures<30> and the U.S. Congress.<31> This situation is not limited to the United States.<32> Transgender legal and political activity is occurring in countries throughout the world.<33> <<
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