Why we're mad at the Mormon church

[FreeState]

Great read - excellent analysis too:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oew-jacobs8-2008dec08,0,3004487.story

Leading up to the Nov. 4 vote, the Courage Campaign Issues Committee bought time on cable television to air an advertisement against Proposition 8 entitled "Home Invasion." The hard-hitting ad depicted two arrogant Mormon missionaries invading the home of a lesbian couple, stripping them of their wedding rings and shredding their marriage license.

The dramatic visuals were designed to call attention to two issues: Proposition 8 sought to take away the legal rights of same-sex couples all across California, and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had contributed an enormous amount of money and manpower to the campaign.

And the truth is very simple: Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints campaigned vigorously to strip rights from gays and lesbians. They contributed a staggering amount of money to pass Proposition 8 -- a figure estimated to be at least $20 million (and potentially much higher) to fund a fear-mongering, truth-distorting campaign whose only objective was to outlaw same-sex couples from getting a marriage license. Proposition 8 now threatens to invalidate the same-sex marriages already in existence, pending future rulings from the California Supreme Court. There is an old saying: Truth can't be libel...

[SidneyCarton]

1. The point is well taken.

I understand the wrath which the GLBT community has at my church, so long as it does not turn violent, I see it as fully justified and understandable in the wake of Proposition 8. Indeed, any different results from the passing of this initiative would have been unthinkable.

That said, the fact that the Mormons have drawn considerable more ire than their major coalition partner, the Catholic Church, leaves one wondering if the ads and post-election venting aren't a little calculated. After all, a serious, scathing attack on the Catholics would likely alienate Latino voters, whose support at the ballot box will be necessary should an electoral effort need to be made to overturn Proposition 8. The Mormon vote, however, is numerically insignificant, and unlikely to be easily turned. Therefore Mormons become acceptable scapegoats for the Proposition 8 results.

Now, I accept that the degree of anger directed toward the Mormons could be considered proportional to the ground-level support which members of the faith gave to the effort, but surely this was not solely the work of one faith?

[FreeState]

2. The LDS Church was the main player in this

I understand the wrath which the GLBT community has at my church, so long as it does not turn violent, I see it as fully justified and understandable in the wake of Proposition 8. Indeed, any different results from the passing of this initiative would have been unthinkable.

Violence is never acceptable - from either side (and yes there has been violence from both sides, very few incidents of it fortunately).

That said, the fact that the Mormons have drawn considerable more ire than their major coalition partner, the Catholic Church, leaves one wondering if the ads and post-election venting aren't a little calculated. After all, a serious, scathing attack on the Catholics would likely alienate Latino voters, whose support at the ballot box will be necessary should an electoral effort need to be made to overturn Proposition 8. The Mormon vote, however, is numerically insignificant, and unlikely to be easily turned. Therefore Mormons become acceptable scapegoats for the Proposition 8 results.

The reason for this is explained in the article - Members of the LDS Church gave over 50% of the total money raised by the Yes campaign while only making up 3% of the states total population. Thats over 20 million dollars by the way. Of the 100,000 volunteers for the campaign take a guess how many were LDS members? I saw one estimate of over 90% (cant find a link for that now but if I come across it again Ill post it here.)

Now, I accept that the degree of anger directed toward the Mormons could be considered proportional to the ground-level support which members of the faith gave to the effort, but surely this was not solely the work of one faith?

There were three main faiths involved - the Catholic Church, the LDS Church and Evangelicals. As stated above the majority of the money and nearly all the volunteers came from the LDS Church. The TV ads were produced by the Church using LDS members.

[SidneyCarton]

3. No need for a link, I believe you.

The question here is what the current activism against Mormon's seeks to accomplish. As stated, Mormons only make up approximately 3% of the population (and not all could vote, and of those who did, not all voted yes) as such, their contribution to the movement, as you note, was in volunteer work. So, if Mormons are electorally insignificant but decisive in a paticipatory sense, such activism can be interpreted as a message that they must not actively participate in electoral politics without fear of reprisals.

Now, I understand that this is an unfortunate reality of the times. That said, if we find such behavior repugnant when it is utilized by the likes of Michelle Malkin, or the Freepers we must at the very least admit that our utilization of such tactics is equally repugnant. You may find it necessary, and I accept your right to use it, and the reasoning behind at as being sound. What I don't accept is that such activity suddenly becomes moral and laudable when utilized for the "right ends." If you see this as necessary, then it is necessary, if it gets you the rights you are fighting for, then fine.

[ohm_moyh_gawd]

4. the end goals of such activism

one of the end goals would be to link LDS involvement with the yes on 8 campaign, showing that it violated what is permissible under law, and hopefully get it at least fined, if not have a portion of its tax-exempt status affected. the question is not how many mormon votes it takes to turn an election, but one of separation of church and state, pushing private faith-based beliefs into the political arena, and the LDS church overstepping permissible bounds. if it gets slapped with a heavy fine or has its tax-exempt status put in jeapordy, the bottom line is money, power, prestige and public perception; i'd like to see a precedent set against the LDS church as a warning to other right-wing religious zealots that they can have all the whacked-out personal beliefs they want to, but they need to keep them out of politics and public policy. and for the record, it's not just the mormons i have a beef with; my message is for those involved in all fundamentalist christian cults of whatever persuasion: keep your private beliefs in your own life and out of my home.

[FreeState]

5. I personally protested against the LDS Church in a more personal method

by having my name removed from the records. I dont know that protesting outside a Temple is going to change anyones mind in the Church hyrarchy - however I feel its fine if thats what one wants to do. I do not however find non-violent acts of civil disobedience or protest repugnant - whether or not I agree with Malkin or anyone else they still have their right to do exactly as marriage rights supporters are doing now - does not mean we cant scrutinize it and disagree - but the protests and marches are as much a part of the American political system as every other march or protest over civil rights.

I feel strongly that the Marriage Equality movement has reached a tipping point that is evident now because of Prop 8 and the LDS Churches involvement. That being, before the election people saw gay rights as rights for GLBT persons and did not realize that if Prop 8 passed and its upheld by the court every minority in CA is potentially one vote away from discrimination. The Gay rights movement has morphed into a full blown civil rights fight that effects everyone who is potentially subject to discrimination.


---


Edit to add the end goal of all of the protest against the church is to shed light on a grave injustice and insure that action like this will not happen again.

[SidneyCarton]

7. I understand.

And I thank you for the civil discussion on this issue. Proposition 8 is not long for this world, if the court does not overturn it, I forsee a future amendment overturning it within the next few years. Demographics will provide a force that no amount of organization or money can defeat. May it come soon, I myself saw nothing to celebrate and much to mourn in 8's passing.

[AntiFascist]

30. Excellent point about this morphing into a full blown civil rights fight that affects everyone...

this is exactly how we can pursuade Latino (and other) voters that Prop. 8 is not good for civil rights in general.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. For all your bluster

you fail to say exactly what behavior you find repugnant. You say 'such activity' without naming the activity. That in itself is a tactic that I find to be cheap, craven and typical of religionists. Name your complaints clearly, or as the Bible says 'let your yes be yes and you no be no'.
What tactics are you calling repugnant, who used them and where? Be specific.

[galaxy21]

11. In my opinion, there were two things (in regards to Mormons) I found uncomfortable

1)Lori L. Jean saying, "There is only one group responsible for prop8 passing – The Mormon Church." I find that dishonest, and there is a level of scapegoating going there. I think she's trying to cover her own ass, personally. (Didn't she go on a vacation at some point during the campaign, and she's wondering why she lost?)

2) The whole 'home invasion' ad with the stereotypical Mormons breaking into the gay couple home. Do I think the ad had a valid point? Yes. And there was truth to it. However, part of how I measure it is: would they do an ad like that with Jewish stereotypes breaking into a home, and doing that stuff? Or Catholics? No. They should have just made it two (non specific) religious volunteers and it still would have got the point across.

Its one thing to hold the Mormon church reponsible for the role they played in passing prop 8, but when you ignore all the other factors, and focus most of the blame on them, that's when I think the line has been crossed. The Mormons are not the one thing stopping gay marriage in America, and it's foolish to pretend otherwise.

[Maven]

9. No, they should not actively work to strip minorities of their rights without expecting a backlash

If that's what you call "reprisals" I don't know whose side you're on.

They spent money, and made calls and ran television ads full of lies to HURT PEOPLE. Real. People. Don't you get that?

"such activism can be interpreted as a message that they must not actively participate in electoral politics without fear of reprisals"

What a slimy, dishonest statement. You are so off.

[galaxy21]

10. I do think there are double standards going on with Catholics and Mormons

While I was strongly opposed to their role in the Yes on 8 camapign, when I hear Mormons say 'they're (prop 8 protestors) going after us because we're an easy target.' I don't think that's entirely untrue. There's been, on this board and other places, a lot of anti Mormon stuff that you couldn't really get away with if it were Jews or Catholics. Mormons are an easier target because people find them an odd bunch of people anyway.

Do I think Mormon involvement was a factor in it passing? Absolutely. They did give a lot of money. But there were other factors as well: Catholics, Evangelicals, and, as had been mentioned on these boards, No on 9 ran a bad campaign, as well. When you blow a 15 point lead in a matter of months, there's only so much you can blame on the Mormons.

Like someone said, if you're going to blame Mormons, you have to blame every major religious organization, including Catholics because it was the Catholic bishop that invited them to join the campaign. I've actually read threads on here were people have circulated lists of Mormon celebrities (um..why? They don't all feel the same, surely?) and even asked 'I work with Mormons! What do I do?'. I thought we were tolerant of other people's religious views??

[Maven]

12. I do blame those organizations, however

I am not willing to countenance someone coming into the GLBT forum and telling me that Mormons are being "scapegoated" for passing prop 8. Not for a second.

And let's not forget the special role the Mormon church played in its passage. Yes on 8 couldn't have been nearly as effective if their church hadn't sent out the clarion call for all its members across the country to donate so they could run their deceptive, bigoted television and print ads. They are in it up to their lying necks and if the poster I was responding to can't own up to the fact that he belongs to a group that perpetrated a massive fraud on millions to serve hate, well, that's his problem.

[galaxy21]

13. I think people scapegoat Mormons when they give them 100% of the blame for prop 8 passing

I'm not denying they played a part, but you know, gay marriage has been struck down in 30 states already and I'm not sure what role the Mormons played in those votes (not a notable one, I assume, since no one had mentioned it)

"They are in it up to their lying necks and if the poster I was responding to can't own up to the fact that he belongs to a group that perpetrated a massive fraud on millions to serve hate, well, that's his problem."

"Their lying necks" who do you mean? Mormons? I don't think all mormons are against gay marriage. Just like all Catholics aren't.Or Jewish people. Or anyone else. Even if they're religion includes many groups that are. That's really what I object to about a lot of the Mormon rhetoric. The idea that every Mormon in the world is against gay marriage. I don't think that's true at all. I don't know every Mormon in the world, do I? Do you?

I know people are upset about prop 8, and understandably so, but a lot of this anti Mormon rhetoric borderlines on religious bigotry. If you want to attack Morman organizations, that's one thing. But an entire religious group? I'm not saying you're doing that, but that's the sense I get from certain people.

I think a lot of the anger at Mormons is because of their role in passing prop 8. But, let's be honest, part of it is because they're an easy target, at least compared to Catholics or Evangelicals or even black people who also gave money and voted for it . You can get away with saying things about Mormons, that you couldn't say about any other group.

[Maven]

15. What the hell does the percentage matter?

They are LARGELY to blame. How does that word strike you? Largely.

Here's a percentage: I'd wager theres an 85% chance prop 8 would not have passed in California, a generally liberal state, without the Mormons' hate campaign. The Catholic Church has dogma; the Mormons have basically what amounts to a giant phone tree which they used to raise money to run their hateful, lying ads. It's a machine they used against us. Why do you think the Catholic orgs wanted them involved in the first place?

And yes, the members of the church who supported and donated money etc. are up to their lying necks in it. And those who still belong to and defend the organization should own up to the fraud perpetrated by said organization. If they support human rights for gay people--as I'm sure quite a few do--they have three options: they can a) raise objections within the organization, b) leave the organization, or c) accept that they belong to an organization that perpetrates lies and oppression against a minority.

As for your other blather about "religious bigotry," boo fucking hoo. Don't you DARE come into this forum and claim that gay people are trying to oppress Christians.

[galaxy21]

19. "Here's a percentage: I'd wager theres an 85% chance prop 8 would not have passed in California, a

generally liberal state, without the Mormons' hate campaign. The Catholic Church has dogma; the Mormons have basically what amounts to a giant phone tree which they used to raise money to run their hateful, lying ads. It's a machine they used against us. Why do you think the Catholic orgs wanted them involved in the first place?"

And there's probably an even greater chance it wouldn't have passed without catholics or evangelicals. There were 3 or 4 main reasons it passed, the Mormons were one of them, they weren't they only reason however. And it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

I'm not saying the Mormons should be let off easy. But I see no reason why the same criticism isn't aimed at the other groups.

"And yes, the members of the church who supported and donated money etc. are up to their lying necks in it. And those who still belong to and defend the organization should own up to the fraud perpetrated by said organization. If they support human rights for gay people--as I'm sure quite a few do--they have three options: they can a) raise objections within the organization, b) leave the organization, or c) accept that they belong to an organization that perpetrates lies and oppression against a minority."

I agree. And every Catholic should be doing that as well. And anyone else who is a member of a group that is unsuportive of gay marriage.

"As for your other blather about "religious bigotry," boo fucking hoo. Don't you DARE come into this forum and claim that gay people are trying to oppress Christians."

When you're treating religious groups differently, for the same behaviour, there is a certain amount of bigotry going on, whether you want to admit it or not. If you're going to treat the Mormons badly, then you have treat every other group involved in the Yes on 8 campaign the exact same. Except no one will do that, because as mentioned in the first post, no one wants to risk alienating Latinos by going after the Catholic church. There's a real hypocrisy there: 'we'll attack who we can get away with attacking.' If this were a Jewish or Catholic group who had done the eact same thing in California as the Mormons did, you cannot seriously tell me they would have been treated the exact same.


I don't know how the hell I've ended up defending Mormons, but this idea that Mormons are somehow the main reason gay people can't get married anywhere (apart from MA) is absurd. I don't care how much money they have, they're not that powerful. Mitt Romney got beaten by John McCain for God's sake. Yeah, the all powerful Mormons. I don't take them that seriously , to be honest.

[FreeState]

25. "treating religious groups differently, for the same behavior"

See there is the problem they did not all have the same behavior. The LDS Church did a lot more on this campaign than any other faith by leaps and bounds. THey provided nearly all the footwork and volunteers, they produced and stared in the ads, they made the mailers, the did the phone calls. 90% off all the small donor money came from LDS Church members. That is a lot of behavior the Catholic Church and the Knights of Columbus did not do.

If you dont think the LDS Church has as much power as we are giving them I suggest you read a little history on the Churches involvement with politics - they are very influential and rarely lose what they fight for. They are masters of image in advertising and have won award after award for it. If we really want equality we have to understand those that work against us.

[galaxy21]

26. A perfect example of the double standards is the thread you started

"Why we're mad a Mormon church.' Would you ever, under any circumstances, have started a thread called 'why we're mad at Muslims' or 'why we're mad at Jews?' Of course not. You'd have probably been banned.

While everyone has justifed, or tried to, justify the bad treatment of Mormons, no one has answered the question raised by this thread: Are Mormons simply an easier target?

And if they are, and that's part of the reason they're being attacked so agressively, then how much right do the people doing that have to complain about intolerance of any kind?

I really, really hate religious intolerance. Whether it's Mormons, or Muslims, or Catholics or anyone else. And I think taking a minority religion and sending out the message 'this group is the only reason you can't get married' and that's what many of the no on 8 people have been doing, is a very unwise thing to do. You can say 'no one is claiming it was just the Mormons' but you wouldn't know that looking at some recent activity. Especially since the woman in charge of No on 9 said 'it was just the Mormons.'

[FreeState]

27. It does not matter if the LDS Church is an easy target or not - what they did was wrong

Its not intolerance to call out a faith for its bigotry.

So your apparently okay with intolerance of gays? For some reason religion is a sacred cow that cant be confronted on any level?

Im sorry but I was born and raised LDS - I served a two year mission for the church. I deserve just as much respect as they do. They are the ones who funded prop 8 which took my marriage tights away.

I will continue to attack anyone who tries to take away civil rights - be it a government or a church.

[galaxy21]

28. "It does not matter if the LDS Church is an easy target or not - what they did was wrong"

It does matter whether or not they're an easy target, at least to the extent of the behaviour. Many gay rights activists dislike Catholics, but the size of the church keeps some of their harsher remarks/behaviour in check. Same with other religious groups. Mormons are different because there aren't that many of them, and as mentioned, are seen as a wacky group anyway. Suddenly, there aren't any limits to what people do because they aren't a 'real' religion anyway. You never actually said whether or not you would start a thread called 'why we're mad at Muslims/Jews/Catholics' which leads me to believe you wouldn't. Therefore, you think Mormonism is different from Islam/Catholicism/Judaism and those religions deserve a respect Mormonism doesn't.

"Its not intolerance to call out a faith for its bigotry."

Yes, but singling out one faith is wrong.

"So your apparently okay with intolerance of gays? For some reason religion is a sacred cow that cant be confronted on any level?"

Of course not. I fully support gay marriage. But when fighting intolerance, we have act in a tolerant manner. Otherwise we aren't an better than them.

"Im sorry but I was born and raised LDS - I served a two year mission for the church. I deserve just as much respect as they do. They are the ones who funded prop 8 which took my marriage tights away."


There you go again, blaming it all on Mormons. This was the scapegoat mentality I was warning about. "They are the ones who funded prop 8?" I never denied they gave money, but from what I understand it was a combination of groups. Unless you can prove Mormons gave ALL the money, you can't say the funded the whole thing.

"I will continue to attack anyone who tries to take away civil rights - be it a government or a church."

Your words don't ring true because you don't seem interested in attacking 'anyone'. Just Mormons.

[FreeState]

29. What part of this dont you get? Seriously

This thread is about the LDS Churchs involvement in Prop 8 - I posted because I left the church over the issue - I single them out because I was one of them - do a search on my name and you will find me talking about Catholics, evangelicals and others.

I dont need to call out other faiths or groups in a thread about Mormonism.


Jesus Im done. Dont bother replying - your now on ignore.

[FreeState]

17. The LDS Church's involvement in other Amendments has been extensive

"I'm not denying they played a part, but you know, gay marriage has been struck down in 30 states already and I'm not sure what role the Mormons played in those votes (not a notable one, I assume, since no one had mentioned it) "

Your answer is yes - the Church has come out in support of each and every amendment and helped fund a majority of them (starting with the first in Hawaii and then Alaska, prop 22 in CA etc). The church gave over 1 million to the effort in Hawaii in the early 90's and since then has changed how it gets the money - the church does not donate it - instead they have members donate (usually asked to donate in a one on one interview with their Bishop -think pastor).

While there may be Mormons who are supportive of gay marriage - and there are, I know several - the reality is they believe in a religion based on strict gender rolls that have no room for GLBT persons at all - there is no room for GLBT persons in the highest realms of Mormon Heaven - gays and lesbians can not attain it in mormon Theology because you must be married to an opposite sex partner in order to enter the highest kingdom of heaven. All of LDS beliefs are based off of this on one level or another. The whole purpose of life in LDS theology is to become like God the Father - GLBT persons can not do that ever.

Surely there are lots of LDS members who are not bigots - however the theology they follow and revere is bigoted to its core.

---


Prop 22 involvement:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/doma1.shtml

Mormons join Alaska campaign to ban gay marriage
http://www.lds-mormon.com/gaylds.shtml

Nevada:
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/6/8/9/0/pages68900/p68900-24.php


I dont have the time but you can search for each state if you want and you will find the LDS church heavily involved in most of them.

[galaxy21]

21. "Surely there are lots of LDS members who are not bigots - however the theology they follow and

and revere is bigoted to its core."


I know you didn't mean it that way, this reminds me of a one of those Anti Muslim posts from Freeperville, where they say 'hey, not all Muslims are bad, but the whole religion is rooted in hate, by the way." I don't think at DU we should ever put ourselves in a position of saying 'this religion is bad' or 'this religion is rooted in bad intentions.'


I will admit I was surprised by Mormons involvment (well, heavier than I thought)and you're right the are actively involved. But, honestly, turning this into 'Gays vs Mormons' is not going to help anyone. Mormons are just another fundy group. No better, no worse. And focusing on them, instead of looking at the bigger picture (cultural attitudes, enlightenment)isn't going to help get gay marriage passed any where. Or if you are going to go after religious institutions that oppose gay marriage, go after them all.

[FreeState]

23. I just left the Church a few weeks ago - it was my church

I know what their doctrines are and thats why I was explaining them - The LDS Church teaches that we all can become gods and the only way to do that is through heterosexual marriage in the Temple - that is their base doctrine, that is why they build temples. If you dont see that as bigoted thats fine - I do however. I was a member for 38 years. How can we get to and understanding of "cultural attitudes, enlightenment" if we dont understand the beliefs in the first place?

I never mentioned not going after other organizations that are bigoted - this thread is about the LDS involvement and response to it. If you want to start a thread discussing the other religions feel free to - I have always said go after them all.

[donco6]

20. So they SHOULD be able to sponsor this type of legis. withOUT reprisal?

That doesn't even make sense.

[Creideiki]

16. If it makes you feel better, I hold the Prince with the Ruby Slippers

equally culpable.

A Pope should be trying to initiate peace and attempt to care for all of the persecuted. Not exiling a minority from full inclusion in participation in the church and the greater community.

There's an interesting passage the "Christians" are forgetting (yet again). Turn the other cheek. It doesn't mean to let someone beat you senselessly, but to ask them what you have done to offend the other person, apologize, and make whatever amends necessary, right up to allowing physical violence. Right now, the Talibangelicals, the Catholics, and the Mormons should be lining up, apologizing, and putting all their effort in correcting the wrong they have been doing self-righteously for centuries.

I'm not asking to once again be shackled into the confines of a conservative religion again. I would like for the members of my community, and for all other excluded members for whatever reason, to be brought back into a situation where people choose to live and let live. If you want to believe that sexual minorities won't be brought with you into Heaven, that's your choice. However, there are plenty of Protestants who feel the exact same way about Catholics, Mormons, and even other Protestant groups. It doesn't give a Baptist majority (for example) the moral right to legislate against Catholic marriages any more than it doesn't give a Christian super-majority the moral right to legislate against sexual minorities.

[keepCAblue]

8. You can't hate the Mormons without hating the Catholic Church...

It was, afterall, San Fran's Archbishop Niederaur who successfully pushed the Mormon Church to join the campaign...and don't forget that the Knights of Columbus were also MAJOR donors to the Yes on 8 side.


The SF Chronicle reports:

"During the campaign, Niederauer issued statements, sent flyers and gave a videotaped interview posted at www.marriagematterstokids.org. But Niederauer's most prominent action was drawing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose members responded with intensive grassroots organizing and an estimated $20 million in campaign contributions from individuals that accounted for half of the Yes on 8 campaign's total. Niederauer noted that many other Christian denominations supported Prop. 8, including evangelical Protestant, Orthodox and historically African American churches. The Mormon church has said Niederauer, previously the bishop of Salt Lake City for 11 years, played a pivotal role in its joining the cause. 'We were invited to join the coalition,' Michael Otterson, managing director of public affairs for the church, told The Chronicle in an interview shortly after the election. 'We didn't unilaterally go into the battle.' Otterson said Niederauer's letter persuaded the Mormon church that they wouldn't be fighting this battle alone, a status that would have made them vulnerable."

[sui generis]

14. bingo - hate 'em all, or at least the ones who

feel the need to legislate their religious views into our lives. I don't hate people who are crazy. I just hate the crazy.

[Eryemil]

31. I almost all religious institutions equally

[FreeState]

18. The reality is the LDS Church would have been involved anyway - they have been in nearly all of them

THey were very heavily involved with Prop 22 here and the Catholic Church did not need to ask - they were supporting it no matter what.

[keepCAblue]

22. I hold them both equally accountable...that is why we are protesting St. Joseph's

...Cathedral here in San Jose as part of the Dec. 20th "Light Up the Night" vigil.

[FreeState]

24. Good for you! Wish I could attend

I never said the LDS Church was the only one to blame - thats a red herring in this thread that keeps coming up - I posted an article on why the LDS Church gets most of the blame - that in no precludes blame on other faiths or organizations. Im all for making everyone aware of every group that took our rights away - starting with the biggest contributors all the way down to the least.