Anyone who STILL thinks our current Health Care System is the best...

[riqster]

Read THIS story:

"NEW YORK - A construction worker claimed in a lawsuit that when he went to a hospital after being hit on the forehead by a falling wooden beam, emergency room staffers forcibly gave him a rectal examination.

Brian Persaud, 38, says in court papers that after he denied a request by NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital emergency room employees to examine his rectum, he was "assaulted, battered and falsely imprisoned."

His lawyer, Gerrard M. Marrone, said he and Persaud later learned the exam was one way of determining whether he had suffered spinal damage in the accident.

Marrone said his client got eight stitches for a cut over his eyebrow.

Then, Marrone said, emergency room staffers insisted on examining his rectum and held him down while he begged, "Please don't do that." He said Persaud hit a doctor while flailing around and staffers gave him an injection, which knocked him out, and performed the rectal exam.

Persaud woke up handcuffed to a bed and with an oxygen tube down his throat, the lawyer said, and spent three days in a detention center."

The hospital is denying any wrongdoing.

[truedelphi]

1. I wish that I could say that this sort of thing could not happen

But it does.

I had to call a friend to my bed in the ER because of my experience with ER workers gone mad.

If it hadn't been for a young paramedic who refused to comply with departmental policy I wouldn't have been given a phone.

[uppityperson]

2. 1977, ER story

I got a call from ER (was working in hospital) that a friend was there, but refusing treatment, could I come help. Friend had crashed motorcycle and they wanted x-rays of hand. They took 1 and friend said that was enough. They said no, they needed 3 more. Friend said no. They said you have to. Friend said no. They said then check yourself out AMA (against medical advice) and insurance wouldn't pay. Friend said no, didn't have insurance. You have to. No.

So they called me to deal with "irrational patient". I talked with friend, found out no insurance/fear of cost thing. Told the staff. They explained that 3 more x-rays were needed to get complete picture of hand, and wouldn't cost more than 1.

Result was all x-rays taken, friend paid, I talked with ER staff advising ask "why" someone refuses something rather than assuming and getting mad.

I am sad to read that some still don't explain why. It helps to explain and listen but does take longer in the short term.

[riqster]

4. The lack of accountability is what drives me around the bend nt

[uppityperson]

6. They said "just tell him he NEEDS to!" Explain "why".

It is just wild.

[newfie11]

26. I worked in a level one hospital for years before

retiring. I am still a registered x-ray tech. I can tell you when someone said no to an exam I was done. The only question asked was are you denying this exam. I was on to the next one. Most of the problem were drunks or drugs. ER is so crowed that there is no time to try to talk a patient into cooperating.

[Warpy]

3. The guy assaulted a doctor who was trying to do his job

Hell yes, they knocked him out for the exam and made sure he wasn't going to start punching when he woke up. I'm guessing they did the exam to rule out a fracture of the coccyx because the falling beam knocked him on his ass. It's cheaper and quicker than an Xray.

People who purse their lips and sniff at this sort of stuff have never worked in an ER.

Some people are ignorant and thing they're solid inside, like a potato. Explaining to them why an exam is being done goes in one ear and out the other. They're hurt and freaked out and can get hysterical with very little provocation.

This guy just panicked for one reason or another. He's lucky he's not being brought up on an assault charge.

[riqster]

5. Ummm, read the story

The reason for the procedure was not explained to the patient until AFTER all of this happened.

Had they told him why they were performing the exam, it would have been a different story.

To a layman, having a finger crammed up your ass for a head injury makes no sense. They should have explained.

But instead of explaining, they went the forcible route.

Hope he cleans their pockets out.

[Warpy]

8. I hope they countersue for assault

You just don't get it. I have never seen a doctor or a nurse insert anything into any patient orifice without first explaining what it is and what it's for.

It only registered later when he calmed down.

I've seen this time and time again. Patients who punch doctors and nurses can expect to be sedated and/or tied down so they can't do it again.

This guy is going to have to prove that he was permanently harmed by this experience to win a dime. My guess is that it's going to be thrown out of court faster than the judge can say "asshat."

[riqster]

10. So the best way to deal with a panicked person is to knock him out?

Thanks for proving my point.

[chicagomd]

14. No.

But it is a pretty good way to deal with a combative patient who is in the process of assaulting hospital staff.

I suppose you could just tie them down or let them run out of the ED without being completely treated, but both of those options carry pretty significant danger to the patient and legal liability as well.

[riqster]

18. According to the story (which is the only information we have)

...he was defending himself, not assaulting the staff.

If you have contradictory information, feel free to share it with us.

[chicagomd]

21. Actually,

"...He said Persaud hit a doctor while flailing around..."

It doesn't really say what was happening to him at the time. The sentence is in the same paragraph where the rectal exam is being discussed, but it does not say he hit the doctor while the doctor was attempting to preform the exam. For all was know the doctor could have been trying to explain to him why a rectal exam was necessary and the guy got pissed off and freaked out. Not an uncommon occurrence in the ED.

I am not trying to defend what happened here, just trying to balance out the assumption everyone seems to be making that the evil doctors in the evil emergency department sodomized him for no reason.

Why do people around here only consider the source of information when it suits them? This entire story is based off information coming from the attorney who is suing the hospital. Do you really think he is going to give an objective account of what happened?

[uppityperson]

22. You are making assumptions also. Here's another article/bit

Still not full report, but sounds like he said no, they went ahead, then he started defending himself. The issue is not did "the evil doctors in the evil emergency department sodomized him for no reason" but they acted unethically by continuing after permission was denied by an alert, oriented patient.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=368459

After refusing a request for a rectal exam, Persaud claimed hospital staff held him down forcibly while he pleaded, "Please don't do that," Fox News reported.

He claimed he began flailing his arms, hitting one doctor until staff knocked him out with an injection — before completing the exam without his consent.

[cosmik debris]

23. Fox news? You trust Fox News? How Odd?

You must be the only one on DU that trusts Fox News.

[uppityperson]

24. Just posting articles as I find them.

I knew someone would give me a snark over it. Congratulations!

[cosmik debris]

25. You are using Fox News reports to support your position.

If you are gullible enough to swallow Fox News reports, what else are you gullible enough to swallow?

By citing Fox News you destroy your own credibility while casting doubt on the credibility of your argument.

You might as well tell us that Bill O'Reilly endorses your position.

If that's the best you've got, you've got nothing.

[Crunchy Frog]

27. Okay, here's a non Fox News article that says the same thing.

http://wcbstv.com/local/rectal.exam.hospital.2.630597.html

[uppityperson]

28. CBS? How can you trust them?

:sarcasm: thanks, am getting tired

[uppityperson]

29. did a quick google search on Brian Persaud "please don't do that"

183 news articles. I posted the first one I found the other night. So sorry to have it be from FOX news and destroy my credibility. Do you want me to post the other 182 articles with links or do you want to go check it yourself. Who knows. Maybe there are 182 or 184 by now anc then you can call me a liar.

[Crunchy Frog]

30. Boy, I wonder how many news stories one could find that have been reported on Fox News?

We could probably discredit just about everything that's ever been posted on DU using that criteria.

[elehhhhna]

17. What next? Docs with tasers?

[uppityperson]

12. I have. That is the problem.

I have known ER people to act like this. I know others who don't. It can be difficult, can take longer, can tie up a room, but in the long run, I found it best to take the time.

[uppityperson]

7. Can a patient deny a procedure? If does not give permission, says "no", can they do it anyway?

If he was alert and oriented, and refused a procedure, and they sedated him to do it, seems wrong. IF you refuse something, insurance may not pay, but even in ER, if alert and oriented, you have the right to refuse. If you do something after they have refused, it is assault.

http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5501885&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1
Medical records state Persaud was "alert and oriented times three" when a resident informed Persaud that he needed a rectal examination.

[Warpy]

9. He'd already signed permission for evaluation and treatment

Who knows why he flipped out? He did. He was informed he needed the exam. He freaked out, started flailing, and and assaulted a doctor.

It doesn't sound like calmly turning it down was part of the picture.

[uppityperson]

11. Was he informed why? Does the permission he signed mean...

he gives permission for anything they want to do? Does he give up total control? What if he says no? He can still refuse treatment. What if he refuses treatment? They could have discharged him AMA but chose to forcibly sedate and examine him when he denied them permission. Assault.

"You need this."
"why?"
"because you do"
"no"
"we're going to do it."
"no"
"here we go."

Denying permission, being forced, denying permission, being forced. Sounds like he was forced into something he denied permission for.

[chicagomd]

15. Yes,

that is what it sounds like. But is also sounds exactly like how his lawyer wants it to sound.

[uppityperson]

16. "Yes" to which question?

Was he informed why? (don't see where)
Does the permission he signed mean he gives permission for anything they want to do? (no)
Does he give up total control? (no)
What if he says no? (talk to him more, take time)
What if he refuses treatment? (sign him out ama)

[chicagomd]

20. To the statement:

"Sounds like he was forced into something he denied permission for."

My point being that of course that is what it is going to sound like as the only source for the story was his attorney.

[Mojorabbit]

13. I haven't worked as a nurse for a while

but we never forcibly did anything to a patient who was in their right mind. Ever.

[Crunchy Frog]

19. Sounds like it was self defense, and the doc assaulted him first.

It's my understanding that a patient has an absolute right to refuse any procedure, however irrational that refusal may seem to others.

I personally hope he takes them to the cleaners.