Why me and not you, or why some poo poo the idea of some

[HysteryDiagnosis]

individuals being more susceptible to toxicity from heavy metals than others. A clinic that recognizes this and treats accordingly can be found at:

www.hriptc.org

This paper from across the big pond explains the genenetics of it all.

1: Sci Total Environ. 2007 Oct 15;385(1-3):37-47. Epub 2007 Aug 22.Click here to read Links
Glutathione-S-transferase polymorphism, metallothionein expression, and mercury levels among students in Austria.
Gundacker C, Komarnicki G, Jagiello P, Gencikova A, Dahmen N, Wittmann KJ, Gencik M.

Medical University of Vienna, Center for Public Health, Dept. of Ecotoxicology, Waehringer Strasse 10, A-1090 Vienna, Austria. [e-mail]

BACKGROUND: Detoxification is an essential process in all living organisms. Humans accumulate heavy metals primarily as a result of lifestyle and environmental contamination. However, not all humans experience the estimated individual exposure. This suggests the presence of genetic regulatory mechanisms. OBJECTIVE: In order to identify genetic factors underlying the inter-individual variance in detoxification capacity for the heavy metal mercury, 192 students were investigated. We focused on the relationship between polymorphisms in glutathione-S-transferase (GST) genes and mercury concentrations in blood, urine, and hair.

The correlation between blood mercury levels, GSTT1 and GSTM1 polymorphism, and gene expression of certain metallothionein subgroups (MT1, MT3) was evaluated in a further group of students (N=30). METHODS: Mercury levels in acid digested samples were measured by cold vapor AAS. Genotyping of the GSTT1 and GSTM1-gene deletion polymorphism was performed by means of PCR. Gene expression of several MT genes was analyzed in lymphocytes from fresh peripheral blood by semiquantitative RT-PCR.

RESULTS: The following was noted: a) hair mercury concentrations are significantly increased in persons with the double deleted genotype (GSTT1-/- and GSTM1-/-) as compared to persons with the intact genotype, and b) MT1X expression is higher in persons with the intact genotype (GSTT1+/+ and GSTM1+/+). CONCLUSIONS: We conclude that the epistatic effect of the GSTT1 and the GSTM1 deletion polymorphism is a risk factor for increased susceptibility to mercury exposure.

The relationship between MT gene expression and GST gene polymorphisms needs further investigation. If MT expression depends on GST polymorphisms it would have important implications on the overall metal detoxification capability of the human organism.

PMID: 17716707

[Dogmudgeon]

1. Eat more fruit.

Most fruit has a lot of chelating agents.

It'll rip that stuff right out of every cell in your body.

--p!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. Heh heh.... you said fruit, and look what popped

up at the bottom of my screen.....

http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CP6fyYHvyJ_XBBDYBRhPMgiWBJOPkCWstQ

[cosmik debris]

3. That doesn't explain squat.

It concludes that more study is needed. That is not an explanation.

It concludes with a conditional statement: "If MT expression depends on GST polymorphisms..."

That is not an explanation.

Your citation is inconclusive. It does not support any hypothesis.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. Talk to the parents of children who have changed dramatically

simply by employing nutritional interventions that affect MT.

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm

We've known for more than 20 years that the metallothionein protein system does not perform well in most ADHD patients. About 68% of them exhibit very poor control of Cu & Zn, based on lab data from more than 6,000 patients diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. Autism is different in that about 90% of patients exhibit Cu/Zn imbalances that are generally much more severe than in ADHD.

For several months, we have extended our metallothionein-promotion protocol to ADHD, behavior, depression, and schizophrenic patients who exhibit Cu/Zn imbalance. The informal results so far are very encouraging. However, we've not yet done a formal outcome study for these populations, and thus have no statistics yet.

[cosmik debris]

5. Do you know the difference

between anecdotal evidence and experimental data?

Are you confused about the validity or importance of that distinction?

[lizerdbits]

6. Well that's certainly scientific

Where have I seen that tactic before? Oh right.....

[cosmik debris]

7. It is just easier

to appeal to emotion than to appeal to intellect.

[Celebration]

8. but

it is a "possible" explanation. No?

Since this is a discussion board, and not a scientific journal, and since the O/P was not misquoting or otherwise being misleading, I am not sure why you have a problem with this post.

[cosmik debris]

9. The OP made an unequivocal (misleading) statement:

"This paper from across the big pond explains the genenetics of it all."

The OP did NOT say: "This paper from across the big pond offers a possible explanation of it all."

The original statement left no room for any other explanations.

The study quoted did not support the the conclusion of the unequivocal statement.

That seems like reason enough to discuss the merits of the statement.

Do you need more?

[Celebration]

10. look at the big blue highlighted part

"The relationship between MT gene expression and GST gene polymorphisms needs further investigation. If MT expression depends on GST polymorphisms it would have important implications on the overall metal detoxification capability of the human organism."


I really think that was highlighted and enlarged because that was deemed the most important part of the whole thing. What I got from it was "needs futher investigation" followed by a supposition based on the study.

I found the post very educational and not misleading at all. I certainly didn't get the idea that everything was settled on this and set in stone, but that the OP believes that the likely outcome of more studies is that this supposition will turn out to be true.

[cosmik debris]

11. You constructively overlook

whatever doesn't agree with your argument.

The statement was made. The statement was false.

Do you really need more?

[Celebration]

12. very silly

It wouldn't be highlighted and bold if that wasn't the crux of the argument. You act as if something was hidden by the OP, and nothing was hidden. It was highlighted.

[cosmik debris]

13. There was a mis-statement in the OP

You may think it is silly to discuss that, but like you said, it is a discussion group.

Why are you so disturbed by the discussion of that mis-statement?

[Celebration]

14. it's silly because

there was no mis-statement--

"This paper discusses the genetics of it all."

Then--there is the quotation directly from the paper right after that statement with the highlighted big blue letters.

Furthermore, it started off with wondering why people poo poo the idea. In other words, why would people dismiss the idea when there is evidence from this study?

That is all the post was saying.

Have you ever heard of context? You know how you don't like it when your candidate is quoted "out of context"? That is what you are doing here. And it makes zero sense. You can discuss it if you like but your arguments are not even remotely rational.

[cosmik debris]

15. Context? you want context?

I used the context in my post. The post you seem to object to now.

It concludes that more study is needed. That is not an explanation.

It concludes with a conditional statement: "If MT expression depends on GST polymorphisms..."

That is not an explanation.

Your citation is inconclusive. It does not support any hypothesis.

[Celebration]

16. so what?

The whole thing was based on not poo pooing the idea--and it never contended that it was a settled matter. Don't poo poo the idea because this paper offers some evidence. It was all about not discounting a theory. So it makes no difference that the study had an "if" on it. It was all about keeping minds open to the possibility. That is what the whole post was about and the study certainly did support that contention.

[cosmik debris]

17. Bullshit!

"This paper from across the big pond explains the genenetics of it all."

That statement is unequivocal and incorrect.

It is easy to see that you are trying to gloss over that problem.

I give up.

Just like last time, this is like talking to a second grader who missed their nap.

AMF.

[Celebration]

18. ummmmm , think context

and cherry picking. If you didn't understand the not poo pooing part of it, then I feel sorry for you and your reading comprehension.

[cosmik debris]

19. I used the context in my post

I'm sorry you are too fucking !@#$%^ to see that. Good luck with the third grade--if you ever get there.

[varkam]

20. I think this is a bit of a red-herring.

This point usually comes up in the context of a debate on vaccines (or, more aptly, mercury in vaccines) and health consequences. Even if certain individuals are more susceptible to heavy metals, then you're still lacking the evidence needed to draw the conclusion that mercury causes illness X. Furthermore, I still don't know why some people haven't yet dropped the whole vaccine/autism hypothesis as it seems to be the case that there is no autism "epidemic" (which was one of the premises of the original argument, since the supposed increase in incidence of autism was correlated with a rise in vaccines).

On point, though, this paper doesn't seem to be saying a whole lot. The route of administration (digestion) seems to be able to be affected by bioavailability, and so I wonder if they held that constant in their final analysis of the data. If not, that could very well explain their results. Also, it doesn't say (at least not in the abstract) when the concentrations were. What doses were given to the participants? What were the concentrations? Were they within normal limits? Did they use ethyl mercury, or methyl mercury? Also, with an N of 30 in the experimental group this seems more like a pilot study with anything else. It might be interesting to see what the results are in a follow-up study, but this isn't saying a whole lot on it's own.

In addition, no one is disputing that there is such a thing as metals poisoning, so I don't understand why you feel the need to point that out.

[philb]

21. there are also other well documented susceptability factors; immune reactivity and

blood allele type which determines who can excrete mercury and other toxics and who can't.
APOE type 2s can excrete mercury and such and have less problems than other blood allele types.
APOE type 4s can't excrete mercury and other such toxic metals like lead and arsenic and antimony and aluminum and etc.
and they are the ones most likely to get autism when exposed to high mercury, alumiuminum, lead,etc. levels, as documented in the literature.
likewise the type 4s are the ones who commonly get Alzheimer's and MS and Parkinson's and Lupus and etc. as early as their 30s or 40s, whereas for type 2s it would be much later typically. type 3s are in between;

your example is covered in my paper on susceptablility factors also:
www.flcv.com/suscept.html

A couple of cases documented of autoimmune autism due to immune reactivity susceptablity
www.melisa.org/autism.php

A few people are so immune reactive to mercury they cannot even go into a dental office without passing out from Anaphalactic Shock.
For some people extremely small exposures cause extreme reactions.
Immune reactivity has been documented to be the reason that lots of people get eczema or MS or Lupus or other autoimmune conditions when chronically exposed to mercury(usually dental amalgams) or another toxic metal like nickel that they are immune reactive to. (mercury is most common cause) www.flcv.com/ms.html

Its also documented that those with such immune reactivity and toxic related autoimmune conditions usually recover and their immune reactivity decreases when they reduce their toxic exposure and body burden of mercury or other such immune reactive toxic they are tested to have a problem with (blood tests for immune reactivity can be done to determine the cause if needed or other tests like fractionated porphyrin urine test that many labs do)

examples:
The beneficial effect of amalgam replacement on health in patients with autoimmunity. Prochazkova J, Sterzl I, Kucerova H, Bartova J, Stejskal VD; Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2004 Jun;25(3):211-8.
http://www.nel.edu/pdf_/25_3/NEL250304A07_Prochazkova_.pdf

Results of lymphocyte reactivity measured with MELISA indicate that in vitro reactivity after the replacement of dental amalgam decreased significantly to inorganic mercury, silver, organic mercury and lead.
All 6 patients with MS showed significant improvement in health.

Out of 15 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) 11 (73%) had improvement of health.

Out of 8 patients with autoimmune thyroiditis 6 showed significant improvement in health (75%).

5 patients undergoing amalgam replacement had atopic eczema for which other studies have found more diverse factors in autoimmunity causes. 3 out of 5 of these patients had significant improvement in condition (60%).
Of the patients that did not have evidence of significant improvement, most tested immune reactive to nickel and the autoimmunity measure was not improved at the end of the study. For those whose condition was worse, the autoimmunity measure for nickel was higher at the end of the study- indicating that amalgam replacement did not resolve the source of nickel exposure.


full paper and test info is on the Melisa Medical Lab website or was last I checked; www.melisa.org

[trotsky]

23. Those links have already been disproven many times over.

You have no credibility left.

[philb]

22. Toxic metal exposures are doc. to be major factors in violence, impulsivity, juvenile delinquency,

and criminality. Treating ADHD and juvenile delinquency records related to toxic metal posioning is one of the Pfeiffer Clinics main functions. The clinic has found that those with such problems are usually the ones who can't excrete mercury and toxic metals due to metallothionein deficiency or blood allele type APOE-4s who can't excrete toxic metals.
But detox and nutritional measures signif. improves these problems. (see susceptability post)

High lead, copper, manganese, or mercury levels have been found to be associated with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder(ADHD), impulsivity, anger, aggression, inability to inhibit inappropriate responding, juvenile delinquency, and criminality (19,20a,21,61,83,122, 133,136,145,151-155,160,43). It has been found that excess levels of copper can cause violent behavior in children(124,115). A study that investigated the effects of zinc and copper on the behavior of schizophrenic patients by comparing blood zinc and copper levels in criminal and noncriminal schizophrenic patients found criminal subjects have significantly lower zinc levels and signif. higher copper levels than non-criminal subjects(165).

Likewise mercury has been found to be a factor in anger and mood disorders (135,133,153-155,160,A). Occupational mercury exposure has been found to cause depression, anxiety, anger, antisocial behavior, and aggressiveness(160). Manganese toxicity has long been known to be associated with impulsive and violent behavior(37,61a,134,151). The most common significant source of high manganese neonatal exposure is from soy infant formulas, which typically have very high levels of manganese(151,156). Lead has been the subject of extensive research documenting its relation to all of these conditions and juvenile delinquency(19-21,61,151,A). Based on a national sample of children, there is a significant assoc. of lead body burden with aggressive behavior, crime, juvenile delinquency, behavioral problems(62b). After adjustment for covariates and interactions and removal of noninfluential covariates, adjudicated delinquents were four times more likely to have bone lead concentrations greater than 25 parts per million(ppm) than controls(21a).

One mechanism by which mercury has been found to be a factor in aggressiveness and violence is its documented inhibition of the brain neurotransmitter acetylcholinesterase (5,19,28,44-47,43,83, 110). Glutathione and N-acetylcysteine(NAC) have been found to have a strongly protective effect on peroxynitrite’s adverse effect on acetylcholine levels(137), as induced by mercury. Low serotonin levels and/or hypoglycemia have also been found in the majority of those with impulsive and violent behavior(127,128,155,115).

References: www.flcv.com/violence.html

note: modern amalgam fillings also have high copper levels and are a major source of copper toxicity.

Studies have consistently found modern high copper non gamma two amalgams have greater release of mercury vapor than conventional silver amalgams (21-23,25).
Recent studies have concluded that because of the high mercury release levels of modern amalgams, mercury poisoning from amalgam fillings is widespread throughout the population"(17,22,18,6).

Due to such widespread high exposures the average person with several amalgam fillings has approx. 10 times higher mercury exposure than those without amalgam(1b), and excretes approx. 30 micrograms into the sewer each day, making dental amalgam the largest source of mercury in sewers.
The high levels in sewers and sewer sludge result in amalgam being a significant source of mercury in water bodies and fish, and also a significant source of air emissions from out gassing sewer sludge and crematoria (1c).

References: www.flcv.com/amalno1.html
www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

[cosmik debris]

24. Too late, you've already been caught in too many lies. n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

26. Who made you the end all and be all of truth?? If you can read

you can understand what Philb is saying. If not oh well, your loss.


1:
Related Articles, Links
Pabello NG, Bolivar VJ.
Free Full Text
Young brains on lead: adult neurological consequences?
Toxicol Sci. 2005 Aug;86(2):211-3. No abstract available.
PMID: 16044537
2:
Related Articles, Links
Bellinger DC.
Free Full Text
Lead.
Pediatrics. 2004 Apr;113(4 Suppl):1016-22. Review.
PMID: 15060194
3:
Related Articles, Links
Needleman HL, McFarland C, Ness RB, Fienberg SE, Tobin MJ.
Abstract
Bone lead levels in adjudicated delinquents. A case control study.
Neurotoxicol Teratol. 2002 Nov-Dec;24(6):711-7.
PMID: 12460653
4:
Related Articles, Links
Morgan RE, Garavan H, Smith EG, Driscoll LL, Levitsky DA, Strupp BJ.
Abstract
Early lead exposure produces lasting changes in sustained attention, response initiation, and reactivity to errors.
Neurotoxicol Teratol. 2001 Nov-Dec;23(6):519-31.
PMID: 11792522
5:
Related Articles, Links
MacLehose R, Pitt G, Will S, Jones A, Duane L, Flaherty S, Hannant D, Stuttard B, Silverwood A, Snee K, Murray V, Syed Q, House I, Bellis MA.
Free Full Text
Mercury contamination incident.
J Public Health Med. 2001 Mar;23(1):18-22.
PMID: 11315688
6:
Related Articles, Links
Wasserman GA, Liu X, Pine DS, Graziano JH.
Abstract
Contribution of maternal smoking during pregnancy and lead exposure to early child behavior problems.
Neurotoxicol Teratol. 2001 Jan-Feb;23(1):13-21.
PMID: 11274872
7:
Related Articles, Links
Rice DC.
Abstract
Issues in developmental neurotoxicology: interpretation and implications of the data.
Can J Public Health. 1998 May-Jun;89 Suppl 1:S31-6, S34-40. English, French.
PMID: 9654790
8:
Related Articles, Links

Free in PMC
Lead and delinquency.
Environ Health Perspect. 1996 Jun;104(6):600-1. No abstract available.
PMID: 8793345
9:
Related Articles, Links
Needleman HL, Riess JA, Tobin MJ, Biesecker GE, Greenhouse JB.
Abstract
Bone lead levels and delinquent behavior.
JAMA. 1996 Feb 7;275(5):363-9.
PMID: 8569015
10:
Related Articles, Links
DuRant RH.
No Abstract
Iron deficiency among incarcerated juvenile delinquents.
J Adolesc Health Care. 1987 Mar;8(2):225. No abstract available.
PMID: 3818411
11:
Related Articles, Links
Rosen GM, Deinard AS, Schwartz S, Smith C, Stephenson B, Grabenstein B.
Abstract
Iron deficiency among incarcerated juvenile delinquents.
J Adolesc Health Care. 1985 Nov;6(6):419-23.
PMID: 4055462
12:
Related Articles, Links
Rimland B, Larson GE.
No Abstract
Hair mineral analysis and behavior: an analysis of 51 studies.
J Learn Disabil. 1983 May;16(5):279-85. Review. No abstract available.
PMID: 6348191
Items 1 - 12 of 12

[cosmik debris]

27. Here is something interesting.

You second reference contains this quotation:

"The central nervous system effects of lead on children seem not to be reversible."

philb says that chelation therapy works to reverse those effects.

Who should we believe? A guy who posts links to fake lab reports or the study you cite?

Once again we find the very references cited casting doubt on the crack pot notions of non-scientists.

:)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

28. Stimulation of the production of adult stem cells in bone marrow

can do and does do quite a bit to renew/repair the human nervous system. Chelation therapy helps to reduce overall body burden. From there on it is the responsibility of nutrition and a robust immune system to try and recoup the damages. If you are interested in these possibilities, I suggest you check out the following.

http://www.fisherinstitute.org/ordering/OrderForm.asp

Stem Cell/FAS

Learning and Behavior Problems In Children With Maternal Alcohol Damage (FAS) Led To Benefits Reported in Infants and Youth Responsive To Micronutrients

[cosmik debris]

31. That contradicts the cited reference.

Who should I believe?

[cosmik debris]

30. Your first reference is a rat study

There is no indication that the rats had any amalgam fillings or vaccinations. While it does indicate that lead is toxic,(we knew that) it does not provide any evidence to support the theory that amalgam fillings or vaccinations are hazardous. Dose information for rats is not comparable to dose information for humans.

Your third reference provides no information about the source of the lead being tested. It does not support the theory that vaccinations or amalgam fillings are hazardous. It does support the fact that mercury is toxic, but we knew that.

As I'm sure you know, toxicity is dependent on dose. We all agree that mercury is toxic as SOME dose, but is is absurd to believe that it is toxic at EVERY dose. The CDC says that 10 micro g/dL is usually safe. Do you have any information that they are wrong? Do you have any studies the indicate that a different dose level is more appropriate?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

32. Yes and yes.

http://www.epa.gov/hg/effects.htm

Methylmercury effects

For fetuses, infants, and children, the primary health effect of methylmercury is impaired neurological development. Methylmercury exposure in the womb, which can result from a mother's consumption of fish and shellfish that contain methylmercury, can adversely affect a baby's growing brain and nervous system. Impacts on cognitive thinking, memory, attention, language, and fine motor and visual spatial skills have been seen in children exposed to methylmercury in the womb. Recent human biological monitoring by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1999 and 2000 (PDF) (3 pp., 42 KB, About PDF) shows that most people have blood mercury levels below a level associated with possible health effects. More recent data from the CDC support this general finding.

Outbreaks of methylmercury poisonings have made it clear that adults, children, and developing fetuses are at risk from ingestion exposure to methylmercury. During these poisoning outbreaks some mothers with no symptoms of nervous system damage gave birth to infants with severe disabilities, it became clear that the developing nervous system of the fetus may be more vulnerable to methylmercury than is the adult nervous system.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9600805?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlusDrugs1
The mercury concentration in breast milk resulting from amalgam fillings and dietary habits.
Drexler H, Schaller KH.

Institute and Out-patient Clinic for Occupational, Social and Environmental Medicine of the University Erlangen-Nuremberg, Schillerstrasse 25/29, Erlangen, D-91054, Germany.

Health risks from amalgam fillings are a subject of controversy. In Germany it is not advised to use amalgam fillings during breast feeding. Objectives of this study were to examine the concentration of mercury in human breast milk and the confounders which may modify the mercury levels. Women who gave birth between August 1995 and May 1996 in a district hospital were asked to participate in the study. The examination included a standardized anamnesis and an inspection of the teeth by an dentist. Blood and urine samples of 147 women and breast milk samples of 118 women were collected in the first week after birth. After 2 months of breast feeding a second breast milk sample was collected from 85 of women. Mercury was measured by cold-vapor atomic absorption spectrometry. The concentration of mercury in the breast milk collected immediately after birth showed a significant association with the number of amalgam fillings as well as with the frequency of meals. Urine mercury concentrations correlated with the number of amalgam fillings and amalgam surfaces. In the breast milk after 2 months of lactation, the concentrations were lower (mean: <0.25 microg/L; range <0.25-11.7 microg/L) compared with the first sample (mean: 0.90 microg/L; range <0.25-20. 3 microg/L) and were positively associated with the fish consumption but no longer with the number of the amalgam fillings. Accordingly, the additional exposure to mercury of breast-fed babies from maternal amalgam fillings is of minor importance compared to maternal fish consumption. Copyright 1998 Academic Press.

PMID: 9600805

[cosmik debris]

34. That's interesting

"Accordingly, the additional exposure to mercury of breast-fed babies from maternal amalgam fillings is of minor importance compared to maternal fish consumption."

I'm getting mixed messages here?????

[varkam]

35. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

isn't it ethyl mercury, not methyl mercury that is used in vaccines?

[chicagomd]

45. You are wrong.

Neither are used in vaccines anymore in any significant amount, some flu vaccines not withstanding.

Then again, you knew that, and your point is well taken. At least they could have the courtesy to be consistent with their rantings against the evil vaccines.

[cosmik debris]

36. After further review...

Your first source has no dose information. It concludes that mercury is toxic, but it doesn't say that it is toxic at all dose levels.

In your second source, you do have dose level RANGES not specific dose levels. It also cites dose levels in micrograms per liter rather than micrograms per deciliter. The CDC guidelines are in micrograms per deciliter. When I did the conversion of your RANGES, the variation was well beyond the range of useful data.

So, NO and NO. You don't have data to prove them wrong and you don't have data to contradict their recommended dose levels.

And of course, the conclusion of your second source makes a mockery of the contention that amalgam fillings are the culprit.

Thank you, try again.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

46. How many fillings do you have? I would guess many. You have to

wonder why so many people would be gathered to talk on a subject that had little or no basis in reality.

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/meetings/090606-summary.html
Joint Meeting of the Dental Products Panel (CDRH) and the Peripheral and Central Nervous System Drugs Advisory Committee (CDER) - September 6-7, 2006 (Summary)
On the first day, the joint committee heard presentations from a materials expert on the properties of dental amalgam, from officials from Health Canada and the Medical Products Agency (Sweden) on the scientific basis for the regulation of dental amalgam in their respective countries, and from the FDA on how the US has regulated amalgam and has performed risk assessments over the years. The first day concluded with 5 hours of public testimony including a talk by the honorable Congresswoman Diane Watson of California.

The second day added two hours of pubic hearing. In total 52 speakers presented in approximately 7 hours. The panel then deliberated on a series of questions the FDA had posed on its draft white paper review of the amalgam literature.


http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.html
8. Should pregnant women and young children use or avoid amalgam fillings?

The recent advisory panel believed that there was not enough information to answer this question.

Some other countries follow a “precautionary principle” and avoid the use of dental amalgam in pregnant women. Canada and Sweden have environmental policies that favor a reduction of mercury in all products, and in Sweden amalgam has been almost entirely replaced by alternative materials. Both countries, however, state that there is no scientific evidence of a connection between the use of dental amalgam and medical problems.


http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/meetings/090606-summary.html

The joint committee concluded with personal recommendations by the members. These include that FDA should :

* Consider informed consent for patients receiving amalgam
* Consider labeling changes restricting its use in pregnant woman and children
* Revisit the white paper to include a broader search, include data from other countries, and provide the rationale for study exclusion
* Study the pharmacokinetics of mercury
* Consider the relevancy of the “precautionary principle.”
* Not make any rash decisions by having the pubic remove their amalgams because it appears that this problem may affect only a small segment of the population.




http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/00n_1665/00N-1665-EC-06.html

Dental Amalgam Fillings is the Number One Source of Mercury in People and Exposure Exceeds Government Health Standards for Inorganic mercury(vapor) Bernard Windham- Chemical Engineer Government agencies and medical studies have found that the number one source of mercury in people is from dental amalgam fillings(ref 2-20). Exposure from fillings amounts to from 50 to 90 percent of exposure, with the average being about 80 % of total exposure(5-9,12-15,19,20). The studies found that mercury amalgams are unstable due to mercury's low vapor pressure and galvanic action, leaking mercury vapor continuously into the lungs and saliva at levels exceeding health standards. Mercury exposure of most people with fillings was found to exceed government health standards and levels found to cause adverse health effects(see below). The tolerable daily exposure level for mercury developed in a report for Health Canada is .014 micrograms/kilogram body weight(ug/kg) or approximately 1 ug/day for average adult(2). The U.S. EPA Health Standard for elemental mercury exposure(vapor) is 0.3 micrograms per cubic meter of air(1). The U.S. ATSDR health standard(MRL) for mercury vapor is 0.2 ug/ M3 of air, and the MRL for methyl mercury is 0.3 ug/kg body weight/day(4). For the average adult breathing 20 M3 of air per day, this amounts to an exposure of 4 or 6 ug/day for the 2 elemental mercury standards.


http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-173519166.html

From mad hatters to dental amalgams: heavy metals: toxicity and testing.(CLINICAL ISSUES)(Disease/Disorder overview)
From: Medical Laboratory Observer | Date: 12/1/2007 | Author: Levin, Pamela

According to the World Health Organization and Health Canada, the level of mercury in people with amalgam fillings causes a body burden of mercury much higher than they would get from eating mercury-contaminated fish from Florida waters that carry government health warnings. (Less than a gram of mercury in a 10-acre lake would stimulate a warning not to eat the fish. Nearly half of Florida's lakes now carry this warning.) (7) According to the San Francisco Environmental Commision, dental amalgam disposal is responsible for 65% of the mercury contamination in San Francisco Bay. (8)

Far down the list of mercury-exposure sources, in second place, is fish that are receiving far more press than are dental amalgams. The media are sending the message to limit consumption of certain fish, but are not warning people to have removed the primary source of exposure--amalgam fillings. Again, Dr. Haley: "We seem to like beating up on the fishing industry while leaving the dental industry alone." (5)

[trotsky]

47. LMAO

You folks are too much. If the FDA/CDC/NIH doesn't look at something, it's because they're part of the conspiracy to kill us all. If they decide to look at something to perhaps quell the fearmongering, well then THERE MUST BE SOMETHING THERE!

All part of that non-falsifiable, all-or-none mindset.

P.S. Bernie Windham is our very own philb. Discredited fraud.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

49. Who is Dr. Haley, and to what is he referencing below

http://www.mercurypoisoned.com/research/haley_review_of_phony_science_concerning_amalgam_safety.html

In my opinion, it is the fear of legal action that causes the American Dental Association (ADA) and the National Institutes of Dental and Craniofacial Research (NIDCR) and their suppression of the facts related to mercury emission from amalgams that keeps acceptance of the danger of long term mercury exposure from being considered a causal or exacerbating factor in neurological disease. A large amount of research has been published in scientific journals to back my statements regarding this issue. Many of these papers can be found at www.altcorp.com under dental information and www.toxicteeth.org, www.bioprobe.org www.icnr.securesites.com/, www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1.html (Bernie Windham), www.chem.unep.ch/mercury/, [e-mail] (Swiss Hg website), www.uninformedconsent.com (shows Hg vapor from amalgams on video), www.alzform.org/new/detail.asp?id=611 (discusses new ideas about AD) www.health.nih.gov, www.doh.wa.gov/fish/FishAdvMercury.htm, www.epa.gov/mercury, www.dentalmaterial.gov.se/Mercury/pdf, www.lsro.org/amalgam/frames_amalgam_meetings.html

[trotsky]

50. Three little words

In my opinion

Don't know who Haley is, but he is offering an opinion. He's got no hard facts, just conjecture and slander and good old Bernie/philb's "Dr. Google" links.

...

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry, I just went to that first link. Dr. Boyd Haley is "Professor of the Chemistry" at the University of Kentucky. Well if he's professor of *THE* chemistry well that just says it all!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

51. None taken. n/t

[cosmik debris]

48. Whose side are you on?

Your posts are a mass of contradictions.

the US has regulated amalgam and has performed risk assessments over the years.

What was the result of that risk assessment? Why don't you cite that?

Both countries, however, state that there is no scientific evidence of a connection between the use of dental amalgam and medical problems.

That sounds reasonable. But then you say:

Mercury exposure of most people with fillings was found to exceed government health standards and levels found to cause adverse health effects

So, which is it?

In this post you say:

According to the World Health Organization and Health Canada, the level of mercury in people with amalgam fillings causes a body burden of mercury much higher than they would get from eating mercury-contaminated fish...

In another post you say:

Accordingly, the additional exposure to mercury of breast-fed babies from maternal amalgam fillings is of minor importance compared to maternal fish consumption.

You don't seem to have a coherent message. And your sources make a liar out of you which ever way you go. Perhaps you should just let it go.

[cosmik debris]

37. Don't you folks read this stuff before you post it?

Your fifth source discusses persons exposed to ELEMENTAL mercury. Not ethyl mercury, not methyl mercury, not amalgam fillings, not vaccinations.

It was a study of incident management, not a study of the effects of mercury at known dose levels.

CONCLUSION: Incident management depends on early effective communication and collaboration between all agencies involved.

How many of your sources do I need to shoot down before you give up?

[cosmik debris]

38. Your sixth source is about smoking and pregnancy

It is not about vaccinations. It is not about amalgam fillings. It is not about ethyl mercury. It is not about methyl mercury.

It is entitled: "Contribution of maternal smoking during pregnancy and lead exposure to early child behavior problems"

If you want to crusade against smoking while pregnant, you won't get any resistance here. But don't try to blow smoke up my ass and tell me that this study is about mercury in vaccinations or fillings.

[cosmik debris]

39. Your seventh source is also about lead, NOT mercury.

You do know the difference don't you?

Did you think you you could overwhelm us with irrelevant citations as a substitute for actual relevant studies?

How many more do I need to debunk?

[cosmik debris]

40. You got lucky on source #8

It is a link to an article (ABOUT LEAD NOT MERCURY) that is no longer available on line.

[cosmik debris]

41. Source #9

"OBJECTIVE--To evaluate the association between body lead burden and social adjustment."

Nothing about mercury here. I guess you just wanted to confuse the issues.

[cosmik debris]

42. Now you are really off the deep end: #10

Title: "Iron deficiency among incarcerated juvenile delinquents."

Who do you think you are fooling?

[cosmik debris]

43. # 11 is identical to #10

Do you know what this kind of bullshitting does to your credibility?

[cosmik debris]

44. #12 is a 25 year old article not available on line.

I don't see how that can help your case, but it seems that your case is helpless to start with.

[semillama]

53. Nice work!

[cosmik debris]

54. Thanks. It must have done some good.

All he has left is to insult my dentistry and call me names that might be used on a grade school play ground.

The irony is that the reason I have so much time on my hands is that I am sitting around the house recovering from dental implant surgery! It's the titanium that makes me so spiteful. And I have 3000 peer reviewed studies and government reports to prove it!

:)

[lizerdbits]

55. I have one too!

I assume you are referring to the kind where they remove the tooth, drill a hole in your jaw, and stick the metal in there. It was so weird to not feel the pain of the hole drilling but being able to feel it turning. See, and we're fine.

alskdjaj;lsdfj lassdjfdja ieworonnvz/jowjff wopppzmmjsngjhbzsow

Not having any problems at all! :rofl:

[cosmik debris]

56. I had 4 at the same time

It just made me meaner than the proverbial junk yard dog. Just ask philb.

[lizerdbits]

57. Holy shit

I wonder if that hurts more than just one. I never had to take the vicodin they gave me an rx for. It actually wasn't that painful, just tough to smoke a cigarette on my way home with blood drenched gauze in my mouth. They say no smoking for 7 days- you don't spring that on a smoker at the last minute.

[cosmik debris]

58. I was heavily sedated.

I like it that way. :)

[lizerdbits]

25. You have been busted as a liar.

Stop posting the same bullshit over and over.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

29. Self portrait??

1: JAMA. 1996 Feb 7;275(5):363-9.Links

Comment in:
JAMA. 1996 Feb 7;275(5):403-4.
JAMA. 1996 Jun 12;275(22):1725-6; author reply 1728.
JAMA. 1996 Jun 12;275(22):1726-7; author reply 1728.
JAMA. 1996 Jun 12;275(22):1726; author reply 1728.
JAMA. 1996 Jun 12;275(22):1727-8.
JAMA. 1996 Jun 12;275(22):1727; author reply 1728.
JAMA. 1996 Jun 12;275(22):1728.

Bone lead levels and delinquent behavior.
Needleman HL, Riess JA, Tobin MJ, Biesecker GE, Greenhouse JB.

Department of Psychiatry, University of Pittsburgh (Pa) School of Medicine, USA.

OBJECTIVE--To evaluate the association between body lead burden and social adjustment. DESIGN--Retrospective cohort study. SETTING--Public school community. PARTICIPANTS--From a population of 850 boys in the first grade at public schools, 503 were selected on the basis of a risk scale for antisocial behavior. All of the 850 boys who scored in the upper 30th percentile of the distribution on a self-reported antisocial behavior scale were matched with an equal number drawn by lot from the lower 70% of the distribution. From this sample, 301 students accepted the invitation to participate. EXPOSURE MEASURE--K x-ray fluorescence spectroscopy of tibia at subjects' age of 12 years.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES--Child Behavior Checklist (CBCL), teachers' and parents' reports, and subjects' self-report of antisocial behavior and delinquency at 7 and 11 years of age. RESULTS--Subjects, teachers, and parents were blind to the bone lead measurements. At 7 years of age, borderline associations between teachers' aggression, delinquency, and externalizing scores and lead levels were observed after adjustment for covariates. At 11 years of age, parents reported a significant lead-related association with the following CBCL cluster scores: somatic complaints and delinquent, aggressive, internalizing, and externalizing behavior.

Teachers reported significant associations of lead with somatic complaints, anxious/depressed behavior, social problems, attention problems, and delinquent, aggressive, internalizing, and externalizing behavior. High-lead subjects reported higher scores in subjects' self-reports of delinquency at 11 years. High-lead subjects were more likely to obtain worse scores on all items of the CBCL during the 4-year period of observation. High bone lead levels were associated with an increased risk of exceeding the clinical score (T > 70) for attention, aggression, and delinquency.

CONCLUSION--Lead exposure is associated with increased risk for antisocial and delinquent behavior, and the effect follows a developmental course.

PMID: 8569015

[lizerdbits]

33. Whaaaa! I've been insulted!

:rofl:

What does an article on bone levels of lead correlating to delinquent behavior have to do with GST polymorphism possibly associated with longer clearance of mercury? Are you saying that GST polymorphisms are resulting in delinquent behavior (assuming the same enzyme is involved in lead clearance)?

[TZ]

52. Yay for technobabble!!

I love nonscientists who post utter nonsense cloaked in fancy scientific terms to make everyone think they are the expert. Sounds nice but it makes about much sense as GA GA GOO GOO.
And yes, I AM the resident expert on this stuff. You have proven again and again that you don't A) have a REAL grasp of biology B) Have a clue on how clinical trials work and 3) Deliberately and WILLFULLY ignore the scientifc truth that your "theories" are B-A-L-O-N-E-Y. I will have to call you Oscar Meyer from now on.
Some real characters in here: Wil E Coyote, Dr. Google, and now Oscar Meyer. I don't need to read the comics, just read this forum for laughs.

On edit: hard to take someone seriously on science when they talk about genentics in their post. PSST--its GENETICS.

[artist113]

59. Using the words safe dosage in regards to mercury is nuts

Using the words safe dosage in regards to mercury is just
plain nuts and misleading.

In reading replies to this post I am struck right away by
references to safe dosages of Mercury.  I believe that would
qualify as an oxymoron (two ideas that are linked together but
are actually opposites and just don't go together).  There are
no safe dosages of Mercury.  To even talk about Mercury in the
context of dosages is unscientific and has nothing to do with
medicine.  Dosage implies something that will heal, such as a
medication.  Mercury doesn't heal anything.  It hurts and
kills things.  Mercury is the second most toxic substance on
the planet. So, how can there be such a thing as a safe
"dosage" of the stuff. How can it be
"safely" used to fill people's teeth, put into
vaccines to kill bacteria, or anything else?   It is put into
the vaccines to kill bacteria, read that carefully, kill
bacteria.  Any chance that enough of something that is used to
kill bacteria just might be able to kill you or a small child?
 I think so.

Let's carry this out to other things such as radioactive
uranium.  Now what is the safe dosage of that?  Or arsenic,
what is the safe dosage of that?  Or strychnine, what is the
safe dosage of that?  Hemlock, etc.  Personally, I don't want
any dosages of any of this stuff.  Even if some clown
somewhere declares there is a safe dosage level of it that can
used on living beings.  To buy that is delusional.  It is
sociopathic and narcissistic thinking.  It is commerce using
and promoting a highly poisonous substance, mercury, that
should never have been allowed to be used anywhere near people
or any other living thing.  And they have always known that. 
The governmental regulatory agencies have always known it too.
 Yet, they allow its continued use.  And just who is it that
cares about your health?  None of these guys that promote its
use and defend its use, I can assure you.  It is toxic at any
level and in any form which is all the science and truth that
you need to know. Using the word dosage in regards to mercury
is just plain misleading.

[cosmik debris]

60. Wow! that's a profoundly uneducated post.

To start with, it is just a semantic argument. If you substitute the word exposure for the word dose, your argument becomes meaningless.

And your rant about radioactivity is just plain laughable! Do you realize that sunshine and bananas both expose you to radioactivity? Yes, bananas are radioactive! (K-40) And sunshine is just loaded with gamma radiation.

The Capitol Building of the State of Texas is made of Pink Granite which contains uranium. People who work in that building 40 hrs a week 50 weeks a year get a dose (yes, dose--that is the way it is discussed by the Health Physics professionals) of radiation measured at 200 milirems a year. It has never been shown to have any detrimental effects.

If you live anywhere near any outcrop of granite, you are probably exposed to radioactive uranium. If you ever walk near the banana display at your local grocery store, you are exposed to radioactive Potassium. If you ever step out into the sunshine you are bombarded with gamma radiation. And we should not forget the smoke detector in your home. It contains radioactive Americium.

Your ignorance about radiation is astounding, but comical.

As for the rest of your comical post, You really should acquaint yourself with the term LD-50. Look it up.