Parents of first US Government acknowledged vaccine related autism case to appear on Larry King

[mzmolly]

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/06/family-says-government-has-conceded-autism-vaccine-link/">ATLANTA (CNN)

— The parents of a 9-year-old girl with autism said Thursday that their assertion that her illness was caused by childhood vaccines has been vindicated by the federal government’s decision to compensate them.

“We are very pleased with the government’s decision,” Hannah Poling’s father, Dr. Jon Poling, a neurologist in private practice in Athens, Ga., told reporters Thursday. “It has been eight difficult and heartbreaking years since our daughter’s injury.”

A federal program intended to compensate victims of injuries caused by vaccines concluded last November that Hannah Poling’s underlying illness that had predisposed her to symptoms of autism was “significantly aggravated” by the vaccinations she received as a toddler and that her family should therefore be compensated.

The decision had been sealed and was made available to the public only recently.

More about the family from www.ageofautism.com

From what I’ve been told, the government could not have picked a more credible couple to whom to make their first concession. Dr. Poling graduated from Boston University with a masters and undergraduate degree in biology and a GPA of 3.90. He received his M.D. and Ph.D from Georgetown University and did his neurology internship at Johns Hopkins University, Department of Neurology. ... the mother, Terry, is an attorney and a nurse.

Edited to add video link - http://www.cnn.com/video/ See baby's descent into Autism.

Seems it took the child of a (scientist/neurologist/biologist/nurse/attorney) to be injured before we got an honest answer on this issue.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/">LARRY KING LIVE

[antigop]

1. hmmm....interesting...thanks. n/t

[mzmolly]

2. Sure, thanks for the reply.

:hi:

[LibertyLover]

3. Ever since I became aware of all the problems related to vaccinations

and because I had a nasty reaction to thimerosol when it was used in contact lens solutions as a preservative, I decided I would try not to vaccinate any children I might have. Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to follow through on that. My husband and I adopted our daughter internationally and when we got her, she had already had many of the vaccinations (in China too :scared:). And my husband, who used to work in a hospital and considers himself the ne plus ultra expert on all things medical, decided that the autism - vaccination links were ridiculous. So he took her for the rest of her vaccinations over my objections. Thankfully she is fine, but I am still not firmly persuaded that no link exists. I have read articles about the research on either side of debate and am not completely in the dark about the science, both pro and con. There is something pushing up autism rates and I think that more research needs to be done to find out what it is. If it's vaccinations, ok, if not, that's fine too, just find out what is causing the problem.

[mzmolly]

4. It's tough when parents don't agree.

Most kids will do fine with vaccination, those who don't need to be identified before hand if possible.

:hi:

[varkam]

5. Well, it's not related to autism.

But don't let me stop you :hi:

[mzmolly]

6. Bologna.

:hi:

[varkam]

7. I prefer ham, myself.

But in all seriousness, the individual was not diagnosed with autism.

[mzmolly]

9. That's not what the parents indicated on Larry King. However, semantics can only "save"

those who used blinders for so long, Varkam.

[varkam]

10. That's not what the court record indicated.

Also, according to the DSM the symptoms can't be better explained by another medical condition (which, in this case, they can - namely the mitochondrial disorder).

[mzmolly]

12. The court refused to hear the evidence in full.

They "settled" before hand given preliminary information. However, this child did not have an issue before her vaccination, you can parse words all you wish. Vaccines damaged the brain of this child, and she developed symptoms of autism - period. According to her parents she IS autistic.

[varkam]

13. And, again, according to the DSM...

nevermind, I'm wasting my breath.

Believe what you want :hi:

[mzmolly]

14. What I "want" to believe

is that no vaccine has ever injured anyone at anytime. Scientific evidence wont afford me that delusion, however.

[varkam]

15. No argument here.

Aspirin can harm people, too. So can "natural" herbs and supplements. In fact, damn near anything that you put in your body can be harmful.

Of course, that response isn't really on point. I believe we were discussing whether or not this child has autism and as I repeatedly pointed out, autism cannot be diagnosed if it can be better accounted for by a GMC.

[mzmolly]

17. I'm not sure why you feel that autism wasn't diagnosed? However, semantics aside again

no one denies that asprin can lead to reyes syndrome in those vulnerable. Aspirin does not trigger autism or "like" symptomology, however - vaccines do.

[varkam]

19. Again, the symptoms were caused by the underlying mitochondrial disorder

That's the last time I'm going to say it. I'm not too big on repeating myself.

You're not sure why I say autism wasn't diagnosed? Go read the court papers, read my posts, and think for a moment. :hi:

[mzmolly]

20. The disorder was triggered by vaccination, thus the pay out in "vaccine" court.

I read the court papers, and I heard the attorneys, parents physicians on Larry King tonight who said the child has "austism." I'm glad you've stopped the spin game however.

[varkam]

21. No. The disorder is genetic.

Geez.

[mzmolly]

22. The disorder is both genetic and environmental, vaccines being the environmental catalyst in this

case. Much like lung cancer. Cigarettes won't give everyone lung cancer, only those disposed to the condition.

A court did not decide to pay for a vaccine injury, because a child had a "genetic disorder". Think for yourself on this one Varkam.

[varkam]

23. Your analogy is faulty.

Sure, genetic predisposition to lung cancer means more lung cancer. In this case, though, it wasn't a genetic predisposition to autism, it was a genetic mitochondrial disorder that was aggravated by vaccines and resulted in features of autism (and that's according to the court decision).

A court did not decide to pay for a vaccine injury, because a child had a "genetic disorder".

I know, Mz. A court decided to pay for a vaccine injury because it decided that a preponderance of the evidence suggested that vaccines aggravated an underlying genetic mitochondrial disorder that roughly 7% of autistic children have (and 93% do not).

[mzmolly]

25. I understand that you are left with semantics.

The bottom line is that vaccines + genetics = features of autism in those vulnerable. That has always been the claim.

Brace yourself for the continued parsing of words, because more "Hannahs" are about to come to light. Oh, I expect we'll hear more about "mitochondrial disorders" that "vaccines aggravated" but the end result is, vaccines have led to autistic features in some children. Man, that's gotta hurt a wee bit knowing you were mislead?

[varkam]

26. Features of autism is different from autism.

Good grief, you're not even addressing my points anymore. I guess it's just more convenient for you to out and out ignore what I write.

Brace yourself for the continued parsing of words, because more "Hannahs" are about to come to light. Oh, I expect we'll hear more about "mitochondrial disorders" that "vaccines aggravated" but the end result is, vaccines have led to autistic features in some children. Man, that's gotta hurt a wee bit knowing you were mislead?

And yet again, back peddling. Now it's vaccines cause autistic features in a small percentage of children with underlying genetic mitochondrial disorders. I thought it was vaccines cause autism! As Orac notes, it's the incredible shrinking causation claim. Have a good one :hi:

[mzmolly]

29. What a crock. Even you must realize how ridiculous your argument sounds?

Orac's loony, narcissistic rants aside, the claim was not > "vaccines cause autism." The claim has always been "vaccines lead to autism in those vulnerable" - and the only claim that's shrinking is the "the vaccine autism connection has been debunked again and again".

THIS is what the NVIC said in 2003 - http://909shot.com/Diseases/autismsp.htm

Now parents of old and young vaccine injured children in the U.S. and Europe are joining with enlightened doctors in a rejection of the unscientific a priori assumption that a child’s mental, physical and emotional regression after vaccination is only coincidentally but not causally related to the vaccines recently given. They are calling for credible basic science research into the biological mechanism of vaccine adverse events to develop pathological profiles which will separate health problems caused by vaccines from those that are not; the development of screening techniques to identify children at genetic or other biological risk of developing vaccine-induced health problems; the institution of informed consent protections in vaccination laws; re-examination of vaccine licensing standards; and an end to one-size-fits-all vaccination policies.

It seems you and "Orac" are behind the times, "scientifically speaking" on this issue Varkam?

I am out for the evening, I'll check back tomorrow.

[varkam]

32. Don't quote the NVIC at me.

That's like a baptist quoting scripture at me when we're talking theology. IOW, it isn't going to do much for me.

And, BTW, in 2003 the theory that mercury caused autism was already toast as research was coming out to debunk it, and so the anti-vaxxers had to adjust the claim to fit in the gaps that science left unexplored - which is precisely what NVIC did. The claim is being adjusted further as we speak. You can stick with ad homs and the NVIC if you want to, but it won't impress me (nor will it persuade me).

[mzmolly]

36. I quoted them as they were correct, and you and your "oracs" were not.

The NVIC didn't change anything. They knew that some children were effected and others were not, all along. Here's a quote from 2000!

http://www.nvic.org/PressReleases/pr42700autism.htm

"Hearings in the House Government Reform Committee last August and earlier this month included testimony from parents and physicians, who presented evidence that vaccines may be a co-factor in the development of autism in some children (www.house.gov/reform/hearings/index.htm). Meetings have taken place between agencies at the National Institutes of Health and parent groups in the past few months where both NVIC and ARI have asked for a public-private collaborative autism research effort that focuses on investigating the biological mechanisms of vaccine-associated brain and immune system dysfunction leading to autism. In a letter sent to the Secretary of DHHS today, both NVIC and ARI formally asked that non-government researchers at private research institutes, including those at M.I.N.D., be involved in any large government study of the incidence or biological causes of autism, including vaccine-associated brain and immune system dysfunction leading to autism."

I'll quote them as being correct given the recent attempt to spin you way out of this recent ruling.

[Celebration]

8. well, it was chosen as a possible test case among the 5000 pending

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/06/vaccines.autism/

In 2007, the case, which had been consolidated with other claims, was designated as a potential test case, said the Polings' lawyer, Cliff Shoemaker.

But last fall, shortly before a deadline for expert testimony to be filed, the government conceded the link between the vaccines and the girl's injury and moved the case to the damages phase, he said.

Though the family would be willing to make public the facts of the case, the rules of the court do not allow that, Shoemaker said.

"To the extent that their story is familiar to countless other families of autistic children, if this offers any hope or comfort to those parents, then they will be satisfied," he said about his clients.

He noted that nearly 5,000 other autism claims are pending in the court, which was set up in the 1980s to pay for vaccine-related injuries.

The rest will probably have to prove a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder. But you can't say this isn't autism.

[varkam]

11. Sure I can.

See my post above.

[Celebration]

16. funny how the government settled this case

right before the experts were to testify.........

Naturally, they were not at all afraid of what they might hear. Oh, no of course not. After seven years, they just were doing the "right thing" in offering a settlement before the cat got out of the bag.

That's right.

Oh, and it isn't as if a neurologist who graduated from Georgetown would know the symptoms of autism and whether or not his daughter had it. NO WAY!!

So you, who have never met the kid, knows she doesn't have autism even though her neurologist father says she does. That really takes the cake.

:sarcasm:

http://www.nbc4.com/health/15516661/detail.html

"We are absolutely pro-vaccine," said Hannah's mother, Terry Polling. "What we want is safe vaccines."

.........................

We don't think our story is as unique as many people would lead you to believe," Jon Polling said.

[mzmolly]

18. Indeed, what does a neurologist/biologist/MD know about autism anyway!?

:sarcasm: ;)

[varkam]

24. Welcome to logical fallacy land! Enjoy your stay.

Naturally, they were not at all afraid of what they might hear. Oh, no of course not. After seven years, they just were doing the "right thing" in offering a settlement before the cat got out of the bag.

And the vast conspiracy revisits us. Yes, mustn't let that cat out of the bag! :rofl:

Court cases are settled for a number of reasons, the least of which being the gubment is afraid that the cat is going to get let out of the bag.

Oh, and it isn't as if a neurologist who graduated from Georgetown would know the symptoms of autism and whether or not his daughter had it. NO WAY!!

Improper appeal to authority. Again, can't be due to a GMC which in this case it appears the symptoms were a result of the vaccines effects on a mitochondrial disorder.

So you, who have never met the kid, knows she doesn't have autism even though her neurologist father says she does. That really takes the cake.

Just going on the court documents. :hi:

[Celebration]

27. The kid has autism

Unless you believe the mother and father are lying. It is that simple. But you can choose to live in lala dream world land if you choose.

[varkam]

28. I'm going on DSM criteria.

Also, it's a false choice of either they're lying or they're correct.

:shrug:

[Celebration]

30. I'll add another choice for you

The likelihood that these parents are mistaken about their kid's autism is zero. They have had a great number of experts involved in their child's case, she has had the condition for several years, they have battled it, gotten extra help for it, and researched it. And the fact that he is a biologist/neurologist makes it even less likely that he would be mistaken. At the very least he is a knowledgeable, intelligent, and competent person. That is my opinion.

Now, he could be lying. But I don't believe that. Do you? Or do you think he is mistaken?

Either the kid has autism, the parents are mistaken, or they are lying. Which is it?

Do you believe that they are so incompetent as parents that they don't know what condition that their daughter has? If so................that is an astonishing contention.

So take your pick--autism, mistaken, or lying.

[varkam]

31. .

The likelihood that these parents are mistaken about their kid's autism is zero. They have had a great number of experts involved in their child's case, she has had the condition for several years, they have battled it, gotten extra help for it, and researched it. And the fact that he is a biologist/neurologist makes it even less likely that he would be mistaken. At the very least he is a knowledgeable, intelligent, and competent person. That is my opinion.

Well, that's not adding another choice - is it? :)

So take your pick--autism, mistaken, or lying.

Could be a number of different things - I was unable to watch LKL so it could be that they misspoke or you misheard. Either way, AFAIK autism can't be Dxed if it can be better explained by a GMC (which is a rule of thumb with all mental disorders).

[Celebration]

33. Diagnostic Criteria for Autism

Time to revisit this--

http://www.autism-resources.com/autismfaq-defi.html

DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR 299.00 AUTISTIC DISORDER
A. A total of six (or more) items from (1), (2), and (3), with at
least two from (1), and one each from (2) and (3)

(1) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by
at least two of the following:

a) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors
such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and
gestures to regulate social interaction

b) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to
developmental level

Please note: These are observational, and not biochemical criteria!! Nowhere does it say in these criteria that there must not be a simultaneous mitochondrial disorder.

Autism occurs by itself or in association with other disorders which affect the function of the brain such as viral infections, metabolic disturbances, and epilepsy.

[bvve]

35. diagnostic criteria

itsjustme is making a very important point. That is, Autism has BEHAVIORAL MARKERS, not biological markers. Hopefully, the Poling case will push Autism research into the environmental and biological direction. Using large population studies to refute/support the possible connection to Autism & mercury do nothing to look at the population on an individual basis. With so many more Autistic children today than 20 years ago, why are the studies not focusing on finding a biological marker? Maybe the first step has been taken, that is, one of the bio-markers for susceptibility might be mitocondrial function. So often, the gut, metabolic, immunologic problems that many Autistic children have are not discussed and get overlooked.

[mzmolly]

37. Further, the NVIC has advocated for this testing for years.

Hearings in the House Government Reform Committee last August and earlier this month included testimony from parents and physicians, who presented evidence that vaccines may be a co-factor in the development of autism in some children (www.house.gov/reform/hearings/index.htm). Meetings have taken place between agencies at the National Institutes of Health and parent groups in the past few months where both NVIC and ARI have asked for a public-private collaborative autism research effort that focuses on investigating the biological mechanisms of vaccine-associated brain and immune system dysfunction leading to autism. In a letter sent to the Secretary of DHHS today, both NVIC and ARI formally asked that non-government researchers at private research institutes, including those at M.I.N.D., be involved in any large government study of the incidence or biological causes of autism, including vaccine-associated brain and immune system dysfunction leading to autism.

http://www.nvic.org/PressReleases/pr42700autism.htm

[Celebration]

34. peer reviewed journal-- IT IS AUTISM

http://jcn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/21/2/170

He wrote an article in a peer reviewed journal about his daughter--entitled--

Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

http://jcn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/21/2/170

Lying, Mistaken, or Autism? Take your pick.