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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:46 AM
Original message
Suicide
Another thread in this forum got me thinking, and so now I'm curious as to what people think. After doing a quick Google, it appears that there are roughly twice the number of suicides in the United States as there are homicides (32k versus 17k). Comparatively, it seems, there is little attention given to suicide versus homicide. It can reasonably be argued that suicide is a much greater public health threat compared to homicide - so why is it the case then that homicide seems to get the bulk of the attention? I have some ideas, but I was wondering what others thought.
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is interesting, I wouldn't have thought suicide was more common
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Same here.
Especially not twice as common. Really makes you feel for its victims.
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drmeow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think in part because suicide is seen as an
individual issue while homicide is seen as a societal issue. Homicide infringes on someone else's rights while suicide doesn't. In suicide the victim and the victimizer are the same, in homicide there is a victim and a victimizer (criminal).
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lizerdbits Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I would say that's the biggest issue
Edited on Mon Mar-24-08 06:48 AM by lizerdbits
In addition there is there's still some stigma associated with mental illness as well as often not being covered by insurance plans (for those that have them) so those who want help don't get it. If the illness prevents steady employment, the person probably won't get help until they harm themselves or someone else. It's still seen by some as a personal failing as opposed to a biochemical condition.

I have a couple more thoughts but I need to get to work. I have a 4 hour meeting so I'm sure I'll have time to think about it more to avoid falling asleep.
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againes654 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. That is shocking to me K&R
Wow, I don't even know what to say, that is sad!!! A serious issue that needs to be dealt with.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. Since the most common means of committing suicide
is by firearms, I'm sure that worship of the second amendment has something to do with this bias.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Only slightly more, IIRC.
Edited on Mon Mar-24-08 01:35 AM by varkam
Another post in this forum puts the suicide rate by firearm around 17k, which is slightly more than half of 32. Not sure if the years are the same, though.

eta

Firearms, however, are the most preferred method of killing someone else - by far: 12k by firearm
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Ayesha Donating Member (587 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I'm no gun fan, but
To be fair, guns aren't the most popular way to commit suicide, just the most successful. If you look at suicide ATTEMPTS I bet you'd find that pills are the #1 method. They just don't often/always work.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Except that the suicide rate in the USA is lower than that of Canada and the UK...
and far lower than that of Japan.

If gun access were at fault, you'd expect the U.S. suicide rate to be higher than that of Canada and the UK, particularly in light of the abysmal mental-health care system in the USA, the disparity of access to health care, our greater social isolation, and the fact that Americans work the longest hours with the least time off of any First World nation (even Japan).

The gun-control lobby does play up the suicide thing quite a bit, FWIW (whenever they talk about "gun deaths," they usually are including suicides in their figures). Personally, I think the homicide vs. suicide attention dichotomy may have something to do with the fact that suicide is seen as an individual's choice (rightly or wrongly), whereas murders are perpetrated against the will of the victim.
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asteroid2003QQ47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. Look to Durkheim for possible answers
EMILE DURKHEIM'Anomic Suicide'TS 916-29

DH prefaces this chapter with the statement that society not only attracts the sentiments and activities of individual with unequal force, but it is a power controlling them (241).
He then asserts that it is a well-known fact that economic crises have an aggravating effect on suicidal tendency (241). in both Vienna and France of the late 19th century, suicides increased with the number of bankruptcies 242.
The increase in poverty, however, is not the cause for the increase in suicides. In fact, even fortunate crises which enhance a country's prosperity affect suicide like economic disasters (243). If financial crises increase suicides it is not because they increase poverty, it is because they are disturbances of the collective order. During a disturbance of the social equilibrium, men become more disposed to self destruction (246).
No person can be happy unless his needs are insufficient proportion to his means (246). Moreover, satisfactions received only stimulate needs further; thus the more one has, the more one wants (248). Any obstruction to man's actions to satisfy his needs can be quite painful
Human passions must be limited by an exterior, regulating force. This must be a moral force which regulates moral needs (248). Society must play this moderating role; it is the only moral power superior to the individual (249). If the individual respects regulations, is docile to collective authority, and has a 'wholesome moral constitution,' he will know better than to ask for more. Hence, this puts an end to his desires. Yet it is not enough that the average level of needs for an individual be fixed by public opinion. Society must also fix the way opportunities are open to individuals (250). It must require sacrifices and concessions of its members in the name of public interest (251).
Typically, the people subject to social regulation are in agreement with it (251). However, a state of upheaval can occur when society is going through some sort of abnormal crisis. When society is so disturbed, it is incapable of exercising a regulatory influence. From this comes the rise in suicide rates (252).
During this time of upset, individuals must struggle to readjust to new social classifications. Society cannot adjust them instantaneously to their new lives (252). individuals no longer know limits to their own desires, thus worsening the state of deregulation or anomy (253). Poverty protects against suicide because it is a restraint in itself. On the other hand, the less limited one feels, the more intolerable all limitation appears (254).
Anomy is actually a chronic state in the sphere of trade and industry. The progress of capitalism has freed industrial relations from all regulation (254). religion has lost its power of preaching asceticism, and the government has become a tool and a servant to economic life. the liberation of human desires has only been made worse by the development of industry (255).
Anomy, therefore, is a regular factor in suicide in modern societies. Egoistic suicide results from man's no longer finding a basis for his own existence and altruistic suicide occurs because man believes his basis for existence is situated beyond life. Yet, anomic suicide results from man's activities lacking regulation and his consequent sufferings (258).
Economic anomy is not the only anomy which may give rise to suicide. domestic anomy can also cause suicide. In countries where divorce is prohibited, wives are more likely to commit suicide than husbands. However, wives are less likely to commit suicide in countries where divorce is allowed. On the contrary, in countries where divorce is allowed, the husband is more likely to commit suicide (266).
DH explains the above phenomena by explaining his idea of the purpose of marriage. According to him, it is the regulation of sexual relations. It forces a man to attach himself to the same woman forever and this forms the state of moral equilibrium from which the husband benefits (270).
On the other hand, the unmarried man faces a different situation. His desire for women can go unchecked. The uncertainty of his indeterminateness condemns him to constant change and anomy (271).
Women's sexual needs are less developed because their mental lives are less developed. hence, they do not require strict social regulation as men do. Thus, marriage is not as useful to them for limiting suicides. Marriage only makes it more difficult for women to change their living situations if they become intolerable. Consequently, anything that makes marriage more flexible can only improve women's situation. Divorce protects them from suicide (272).

http://ssr1.uchicago.edu/PRELIMS/Theory/durkheim.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/emile-durkheim
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. Lowering figures for suicide means doing some unpopular things
like extending full health care coverage, including mental health coverage, to the undeserving, the people with the moral failure that makes them deeply depressed.

It also means restoring the social safety net, so that people facing financial ruin will eventually be able to rebuild their lives instead of being shown the street as a permanent condition.

They can be written off. It's not like they hang around and make the rest of us feel guilty for not addressing the problems in this country that helped push them over the edge and into the abyss.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. EXACTLY. (n/t)
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Honestly, I'm thinking many chalk up suicide to a "choice" rather than the result of illness?
Also, addressing suicide means we need to focus on prevention and thus mental health parity (big no no for insurance companies).

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