Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Gardasil Roundup

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Health Donate to DU
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 05:23 AM
Original message
Gardasil Roundup
http://www.newsinferno.com/archives/3670

Merck’s Gardasil Push Ignored Important Questions
Date Published: Wednesday, August 20th, 2008

In the past two years, Merck & Co. has been spending big to market its Gardasil vaccine, and the effort has been paying off. Catchy television commercials urging parents to make sure their daughter is “one less” victim of cervical cancer, coupled with aggressive lobbying of women’s group, medical societies and politicians has made Gardasil one of Merck’s fastest growing products. But critics of Merck say that the company’s Gardasil marketing campaign has created a panic about a type of cancer that - in Western countries anyway - is preventable through other means, and ignores serious questions about the vaccine’s safety and effectiveness. ...

Merck has seen a big payoff from these efforts. According to The New York Times, Gardasil has now been made available to the poorest girls in the country, up to age 18, at a potential cost to the United States government of more than $1 billion. Proposals to mandate the vaccine for girls in middle schools have been offered in 24 states, and one will take effect in Virginia this fall.

But critics of Merck say the company has overstated Gardasil’s proven potential. Gardasil was only studied in clinical trials for five years. Some data from those trials indicated immunity may wane after three to five years. That means young girls immunized at 11 could have no protection by the time they enter college. Others say Merck is exploiting fears of a type of cancer that can be easily prevented through regular Pap tests. In fact, cervical cancer has not been a major killer in western countries like the U.S. for decades. And Gardasil vaccination doesn’t even eliminate the need for regular Pap tests because it doesn’t protect against all forms of HPV.

Then there are the reported Gardasil side effects. According to an analysis released June 30 by the Washington, D.C.-based public interest group Judicial Watch, there have been 9,749 adverse reactions following Gardasil and 21 reported deaths since 2006. Those side effects, which were reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) included 10 miscarriages, 78 severe outbreaks of genital warts and six cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome, an autoimmune disorder that can result in paralysis. Earlier this week, Australian regulators said they were investigating three cases of pancreatitis that followed Gardasil administration. No one can say for sure if any of these side effects are the result of Gardasil. But many believe the vaccine was not subject to enough pre-market scrutiny. According to The New York Times, the FDA expedited Gardasil’s approval application, and gave it the ok in just six months. It was recommended by the CDC just weeks later.

more ...


http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/19/america/vaccine.php

In two years, cervical cancer has gone from obscure killer confined mostly to poor nations to the West's disease of the moment. Tens of millions of girls and young women have been vaccinated against the disease in the United States and in Europe in the two years since two vaccines were given government approval in many countries and, often, recommended for universal use among females from 11 to 26. ... The lightning-fast transition from newly minted vaccine to must-have injection in the United States and Europe represents a triumph of what the manufacturers call education and their critics call marketing. The vaccines are far more expensive than earlier vaccines against other diseases - Gardasil's list price is $360 for the three-dose series, and the total cost is typically $400 to nearly $1,000 when including markup and office visits.

The vaccine makers have also brought attention to cervical cancer by providing money for activities by patients' and women's groups, doctors and medical experts, lobbyists and political organizations interested in the disease, sometimes in ways that skirt disclosure requirements or obscure the companies' involvement. In the United States, hundreds of doctors have been recruited and trained to give talks about Gardasil - $4,500 for a lecture - and some have made hundreds of thousands of dollars. Politicians in Britain have been invited to receptions catered with drug company money. Legislators in dozens of countries willingly rallied behind a vaccine that combined two popular, hot button issues: cancer prevention and women's health. "There was incredible pressure from industry and politics," said Dr. Jon Abramson, a professor of pediatrics at Wake Forest University who was chairman of the committee of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that recommended the vaccine for all girls from age 11 or 12 through 26, though he later opposed state proposals to require it. ...

Some experts are concerned about possible side effects that become apparent only after a vaccine has been more widely tested over longer periods. And why the sudden alarm in developed countries about cervical cancer? some experts ask. A major killer in the developing world, particularly Africa, where the vaccines are too expensive for use, cervical cancer is almost always preventable through regular Pap smears that detect precancerous cells effectively. Indeed, because the vaccines prevent only 70 percent of cervical cancers, Pap smear screening must continue anyway. ...

Harper said that in the data from Merck's clinical trials, which she helped conduct, the vaccine was no longer protective after just three years in some girls. "The immunity of Gardasil will not last - that is dangerous to assume," she said. She believes that at least one booster shot, and probably more, will be needed over the course of a lifetime. Other independent experts have worried that eliminating the two cancer-causing HPV strains covered by Gardasil and Cervarix might actually allow the other cancer-causing strains of HPV to increase in frequency, reducing the vaccine's effect. But Haupt said these were "theoretical possibilities" that should not deter rapid distribution of an important vaccine. "We'll worry about whether boosters are needed down the road," he said.

much more ...


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5620282&page=1

First, Gardasil's long-term effectiveness is unclear. Because cervical cancer takes years to develop, critics say the current information is insufficient to determine whether Gardasil works. "The overall effect of the vaccines on cervical cancer remains unknown," Dr. Carolyn J. Haug, the Journal of Norwegian Medical Association's editor, wrote in the New England Journal editorial. "The real impact of HPV vaccination on cervical cancer will not be observable for decades."

Gardasil is also expensive, costing about $400 to $1,000 for the necessary three doses of the vaccine. Studies have not proven how long the immunity will last and whether or not additional shots will be needed, which would raise the cost even higher. And it's not a slam dunk. The vaccine only protects against some of the viruses that cause cervical cancer, so women still need regular pap screenings. And some doctors said that a traditional pap screen may be more effective.

These remaining questions have prompted some doctors to ask if it's worth it for girls to get vaccinated in the first place. "Most of the information people have right now leads them to believe that if they're vaccinated with Gardasil, they're protected for life, and that's just not true," said Dr. Diane Harper of Dartmouth College.

There is also the issue of side effects. FDA records reveal that, since Gardasil's approval, nearly 9,000 girls had "bad health events" after receiving their shots. These included 78 reported outbreaks of genital warts, 18 deaths and six cases of Guillain Barre Syndrome, which can result in paralysis. It is unknown whether there are unseen side effects, like decreasing the body's ability to fight off other strains of the HPV virus.


http://www.wjbf.com/midatlantic/jbf/news_index/health_news.apx.-content-articles-JBF-2008-08-21-0009.html

Gardasil: Cervical Cancer Vaccine's Effectiveness Questioned
Many are rethinking whether the Gardasil vaccine is worth it

New York -- Sonya Sheehan's daughters are the picture of health, and she wants to keep it that way. So Sheehan, a nurse, had her older daughter innoculated with Gardasil, the human pappiloma virus (HPV) vaccine, and in a few years....

Sharyn Alphonsi, reporting: "And are you going to give the shots to your six-year-old?"
Sonya Sheehan: "Yes."
Sharyn Alphonsi: "Why?"
Sonya Sheehan: "Because it will protect her against cervical cancer."

Most medical organizations strongly advocate using the HPV vaccine for girls 11- and 12-years-old. And a massive marketing campaign has caught the attention of parents. But, an editorial, published in the New England Journal of Medicine Thursday outlines some serious concerns about the vaccine. First, cervical cancer takes years to develop, so it could be decades before we know of Gardasil's long-term effectiveness. And it could require additional shots.

Sharyn Alphonsi: "And it's not a slam dunk. The vaccine only protects against some of the viruses that cause cervical cancer, so women still need regular screenings. Which is why some doctors are now asking if it's worth it?"

Dr. Diane Harper, Dartmouth College: "Most of the information people have, right now, leads them to believe that if they're vaccinated with Gardisil, they're protected for life...and that's just not true."

Then, there is the issue of side effects. The FDA records reveal that since Gardasils approval, nearly 9,000 girls suffered from "bad health events" after their shots...including 78 outbreaks of gential warts, 18 deaths, and six cases of Guillaine-Barre Syndrome that can result in paralysis. ...


http://www.pharmatimes.com/WorldNews/article.aspx?id=14179

Still, Kim and Goldie add that the real impact of HPV vaccination on cervical cancer will not be observable for decades, a point stressed in an accompanying editorial by Charlotte Haug, editor of the Journal of the Norwegian Medical Association, She notes that several strains of HPV can cause cervical cancer, and two vaccines directed against the currently most important oncogenic strains (the HPV-16 and HPV-18 serotypes) represent good news. However, “the bad news is that the overall effect of the vaccines on cervical cancer remains unknown,” she adds.

Dr Haug goes on to note that “despite great expectations and promising results of clinical trials, we still lack sufficient evidence of an effective vaccine against cervical cancer”. She says that the jabs protect against only two strains, yet published reports of trials show an increasing trend of precancerous cervical lesions caused by HPV serotypes other than HPV-16 and HPV-18. Those results were not statistically significant, however, possibly because there were too few clinically relevant endpoints in the observation periods reported. She acknowledges the pressure on policymakers worldwide to introduce the HPV vaccine but asks how they can make “rational choices about the introduction of medical interventions that might do good in the future, but for which evidence is insufficient, especially since we will not know for many years whether the intervention will work or – in the worst case – do harm”?

While describing the model presented by Kim and Goldie as “well done and ambitious”, Dr Haug says that “their base-case assumptions are quite optimistic”. They presume lifelong protection(no need for a booster dose), “that the vaccine has the same effect on preadolescent girls as on older women, that no replacement with other oncogenic strains of HPV takes place, that vaccinated women continue to attend screening programs, and that natural immunity against HPV is unaffected”. She concludes by saying that “whether these assumptions are reasonable is exactly what needs to be tested in trials and follow-up studies” and “with so many essential questions still unanswered, there is good reason to be cautious about introducing large-scale vaccination programmes”.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/579364

Caution Urged Over Large-Scale HPV Vaccination Programs

Zosia Chustecka

August 20, 2008 — "There is good reason to be cautious about introducing large-scale vaccination programs" with the human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccines, because many essential questions are still unanswered. This is the conclusion of Charlotte Haug, MD, PhD, from the Journal of the Norwegian Medical Association, in Oslo, writing in an editorial in the August 21 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

"The real impact of HPV vaccination on cervical cancer will not be observable for decades," Dr. Haug comments, but there has been pressure on policy makers worldwide to introduce the HPV vaccine in national or statewide vaccination programs.

Two HPV vaccines are marketed worldwide — the United States and Australia use Gardasil (Merck & Co), while the United Kingdom recently announced that it has chosen Cervarix (GlaxoSmithKline). A major target of these vaccination programs is girls between 12 and 13 years old, as the vaccine is most effective before the onset of sexual activity.

However, Dr. Haug questions how policy makers can make "rational choices about the introduction of medical interventions that might do good in the future but for which evidence is insufficient, especially since we will not know for many years whether the intervention will work or — in the worst case — do harm?"


http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7786

The Gardasil 'miracle' coming undone?

The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) has announced that it is investigating whether there is a link between Gardasil, the vaccine against the human papilloma virus (HPV) and the development of pancreatitis in three young women as reported in a letter to the Medical Journal of Australia. This investigation is good news - but not one minute too early. While the TGA are doing this work, they should also look in detail at the other adverse effects that have been reported in Australia and around the world. And it’s not just “headaches, redness at the injection site, nausea and vomiting” as the TGA claims. There are many serious reports including seizures, debilitating tiredness, body rashes, serious walking problems, severe menstrual pain and irregularities, chest pain, anaphylactic reactions. And these symptoms can persist for weeks, sometimes months. Then there is Guillain Barré Syndrome (paralysis), Acute Demyelinating Encephalomyelitis (ADEM, a neurological disorder characterised by inflammation of the brain), miscarriages and fetal abnormalities in women who were mistakenly administered the vaccine while pregnant.

Not to mention the 17-20 deaths that have been associated with the vaccine in the USA (reported to the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System, VAERS) as well as one death in Germany and one in Austria. Like Jessica Ericzon, a 17-year-old student who was a softball player but collapsed and died two days after receiving the second Gardasil shot. Or 14-year-old Jenny and her sad story of rapidly deteriorating motor neurone disease following the Gardasil injection. Her family is desperately seeking “comparables”, other girls with similar conditions, whose treatment might help save their severely ill daughter. ...

The third reason can be found in media reports which too often unquestioningly repeat what is fed to them by vaccine advocates. The fact is that HPV as well as cervical cancer are complicated and messy scientific phenomena with lots of question marks remaining. This complexity is difficult to explain. So the over enthusiastic media message gets simplified to “Gardasil Prevents 70 per cent of Cervical Cancer”. And parents who want to do the responsible thing sign their daughters up for vaccination. But no one knows if Gardasil will ever prevent a single case of cervical cancer. There is certainly no proof to date because cervical cancer can take 20 to 30 years to develop and research into the HPV vaccine has only taken place for the past five years. What manufacturer-sponsored researchers have claimed as success was seeing fewer benign lesions develop in research participants. ...

It’s also unclear if HPV “causes” the cancer or, rather, is “associated” with it (e.g. already existing cancer cells might spread more rapidly if HPV is present). Most importantly, there are an estimated 20-40 HPV strains that infect the female genital tract and of those Gardasil covers only two “high” risk strains (16 and 18) and also 6 and 11 which can lead to genital warts. The great worry is that even if strains 16 and 18 were neutralised by the vaccine, other virus strains might become more active. This is a very important point because it appears that most infections are “mixed”, that is they consist of a number of HPV strains (see “HPV Vaccination - More Answers, More Questions” by George F. Sawaya, M.D., and Karen Smith-McCune, M.D., Ph.D. in the New England Journal of Medicine 356:1991-1993).

more ...


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0821/1219243766868.html

Important questions about cancer vaccine

New research casts some doubts over the vaccine and vindicates a decision by Mary Harney not to approve a catch-up programme

RESEARCH INTO cervical cancer vaccination and an accompanying editorial, published today in the New England Journal of Medicine, highlight the intricate calculations and assumptions made by experts when they attempt to assess the cost-effectiveness of new health interventions. Following on from the decision earlier this month by Minister for Health Mary Harney to green-light a national human papilloma virus (HPV) vaccination programme from September 2009, this latest research allows us to examine this policy decision through a lens of a different shade. ...

But the Harvard researchers raise a number of questions: Will the vaccine ultimately prevent cervical cancer and lower deaths and not just prevent non-invasive forms of the cancer? How long will protection conferred by HPV vaccine last? Will there be a need for a 10-year booster injection? Will vaccination affect attendance at screening programmes when the adolescent girls reach their 20s and 30s?

In addition, the Norwegian editorial writer is concerned that the suppression of HPV-16 and HPV-18 (the desired effect of the vaccine) may allow other strains of the virus to grow instead. Could these other serotypes - there are over 200 HPV types in total - emerge as cancer causing agents in response to the eradication of types 16 and 18? While the Harvard authors found that vaccinating 12-year-old girls was cost effective in an American context, the editorial suggest they may have been over optimistic in their basic assumptions. "Whether these assumptions are reasonable are exactly what needs to be tested, in trials and follow-up studies. If the authors' baseline assumptions are not correct, vaccination becomes less favourable and even less effective than screening alone," the writer notes.


http://www.healthnews.com/family-health/womens-health/the-payoff-panic-the-success-gardasil-1623.html

The Payoff of Panic: The Success of Gardasil
By: Lara Endreszl

Is Gardasil the food bunker of the new millennium? Way back in 1999, you knew someone who was nervous that their bank account would be destroyed, their perishables perished, and time as they knew it wiped out at midnight on December 31st. When nothing happened you could hear the big sigh of relief, and buyers' remorse, of everyone who stocked up their homes for weeks with dried foods and bottled water. In mid-2006, a drug was approved to vaccinate young girls from the danger of the human-papillomavirus, or HPV—the main cause of cervical cancer in women—and the media went nuts.

Elizabeth Rosenthal of the International Herald Tribune states, "Although cervical cancer kills close to 300,000 women a year globally, pap smears and follow-up treatment limit the death toll in countries with good medical care." In fact, in the United States there are less than 4,000 deaths per year to cervical cancer. Elizabeth goes on to point the finger at the pharmaceutical company Merck who dreamed up this aggressive nature behind the vaccine's push. Dr. Diane Harper, who directs the Gynecologic Cancer Prevention Research Group and is a professor of medicine at Dartmouth Medical School, investigated the clinical trial of Gardisil and thinks Merck crossed a line in its marketing campaign, "Merck lobbied...and went directly to the people—it created a sense of panic that says you have to have this vaccine now."

In developing Gardisil, Merck saw dollar signs in their future and they weren't wrong. Having already raked in between $1.4 - 1.6 billion in sales in 2008, Merck worked its magic publicity on doctors, politicians, nurses, schools, and the media to enforce the issue of cervical cancer as a needed preventative measure using Gardasil as the saving grace behind lurking HPV statistics. Doctors can gain up to $4,500 per lecture on the drug and many have been recommending it to their patients since it was approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in June 2006. Doctor's offices are able to bump up their profits on Gardasil by charging a per needle fee when one series usually costs $361. (Gardasil is a series of three vaccines given over a six-month time period.) But hurry, Merck warns it's only approved in women ages 11 to 26.

Some say the FDA acted too quickly and gave the green light too fast to the vaccine. Gardasil only covers 70 percent of cervical cancers and women still have to get regular pap tests. Gardasil's effectiveness is under question; when most new drugs take years to be approved, Merck's baby got its stamp at just six months. Gardasil only went through clinical trials for five years and data is now surfacing that the immunity to the types of cervical cancer could start to lessen in as little as three to five years. So girls who get the treatment at eleven might still be at risk during their high school years. Is the value of a dollar more important than the value of a life? If Merck doesn't know the long-term effects yet, we are left to wonder why the FDA was so quick to approve it. Would this then require vaccinated women to get re-vaccinated? I guess I'll find out at thirty, but at least now I don't have a shed full of freeze-dried ice cream.


http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/08/gardasil-isnt-worth-the-cost-for-women-over-18/

Current data has only looked at Gardasil’s ability to stop HPV for up to five years. It is unknown whether Gardasil can reduce overall rates of cervical cancer and deaths, Charlotte Haug, editor-in-chief of the Journal of the Norwegian Medical Association, wrote in a separate editorial also published in the New England Journal.

“There is good reason to be cautious about introducing large-scale vaccination programs,” Haug tells Bloomberg. “Instead, we should concentrate on finding more solid answers through research rather than base consequential and costly decisions on yet unproven assumptions.”


http://www.justicenewsflash.com/2008/08/20/gardasil/

The instant fame of Gardasil ignored important risks

August 20, 2008

West Palm Beach, Florida – The approved Gardasil vaccine prevents the spread of human papillomavirus, known as HPV (a sexually transmitted virus that can cause cervical cancer in women.) With strong slogans such as “Be one less victim” and the strong push from doctors and medical companies, Gardasil has become extremely popular in the past few years. The vaccine’s manufacturer, Merck & Co. Inc., says it has distributed more than 26 million Gardasil vaccines worldwide, including nearly 16 million in the United States. Merck estimates that 8 million girls and women have received the vaccine in the United States, yet these amounts are quite shocking since the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) only approved Gardasil in June of 2006. ...

Yet, there are many who oppose this vaccine. Many argue that Gardasil’s marketing campaign created an unnecessary panic about a type of cancer that is preventable through regular gynecologist check-ups and Pap smears. Cervical cancer has not been a major killer in western countries for decades. Critics state that the manufacturers of Gardasil had pushed it too quickly, therefore overlooking serious questions about the vaccine’s safety and effectiveness. Gardasil was only studied in clinical trials for five years, with results that showed a decreased immunity after three to five years. (Meaning that a girl at age 11, who gets the shots, could possibly not even be protected by her first year of college. Young girls, who have had the vaccine, have complained of serious side effects. Judicial Watch (a Washington, D.C.-based public interest group) found that there has been 9,749 adverse reactions following Gardasil and 21 reported deaths since 2006. ‘Those side effects, which were reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) included 10 miscarriages, 78 severe outbreaks of genital warts and six cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome, an autoimmune disorder that can result in paralysis.’

These grave effects are the result of what happens when a product is rushed on the market. It is sad that so many young girls are experiencing these outcomes and there may be more added to them when around 12 state legislatures are considering mandating this shot for preteen girls before they begin school.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-08-20-hpv-QnA_N.htm

But because cancers typically take decades to develop, it may be many years before doctors know for sure if it prevents cancers, says Charlotte Haug of the Journal of the Norwegian Medical Association, who wrote an editorial in today's New England Journal of Medicine. And because the vaccine protects against only 70% of cervical cancers, women will still need to undergo regular cervical cancer screenings.

Haug has other questions: How will the vaccine will affect the body's natural immune system, which usually clears most HPV infections on its own? How will the vaccine affect other strains of HPV that aren't targeted by the vaccine? Will these strains become more common? Will vaccination give girls and women a false sense of protection, leading them to skip screenings that could be life-saving?

Because the vaccine is new, it's possible that other serious problem could surface later. Doctors also don't know if the vaccine's immunity will fade over time, she writes.


http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-gardasil11-2008aug11,0,2921629.story

Gardasil vaccine doubts grow

A SHOT AT PREVENTION: Since 2006, about 8 million U.S. females reportedly have received the Gardasil vaccine.

The safety and effectiveness of the HPV vaccine Gardasil as a preventive cervical cancer treatment for girls are questioned in a report.

In addition, because Gardasil protects only against the HPV strains linked most strongly to cervical cancer, "we don't know if it will make a difference in the ultimate rates of cancer," says Abby Lippman, an epidemiologist at McGill University in Montreal who has researched the HPV vaccine. "The jury is still out on how much benefit we're actually going to get with this vaccine."

A report released in June stirred up more doubts. Although cause and effect were not proved, the report listed serious events -- such as seizures, spontaneous abortions and even deaths -- among teens, preteens and young women who had earlier had Gardasil shots. As a result, the decision -- to vaccinate or not? -- has become controversial. Sorting through the pros and cons can be daunting for many parents.

The price may not be worth it, says Dr. Karen Smith-McCune, an obstetrician and gynecologist at the UC San Francisco School of Medicine. Because it takes years for cervical cancer to develop, it is easily preventable as long as HPV infection is detected early. Though the cancer is common in developing countries and kills more than 280,000 women worldwide every year, it is much less of a health threat in the U.S., she says, where 11,000 women are diagnosed with the disease annually, and about 3,700 will die of it. The comparatively low U.S. incidence of cervical cancer is due to one of the public health system's triumphs: widespread use of Pap smears, which detect abnormal cervical cells so they can be removed before they turn into cancers. Adoption of the Pap test caused a reduction of cervical cancer rates by 74% between 1955 and 1992, according to the American Cancer Society. Rates continue to drop by 4% each year. "The crux of it is that we know how to prevent cervical cancer," Smith-McCune says. "One of the key questions is whether this huge outlay of money for the vaccine is a better strategy than reaching out to the women who aren't getting Pap tests and follow-ups."

It is not yet proven that Gardasil actually prevents cervical cancer, which can take a decade to develop after HPV infection, because tests of the vaccine before the FDA greenlighted it didn't run long enough to prove that conclusively. "Even though it guards against two HPV strains, the other HPV types need to be taken into account," Smith-McCune says. "It will take a long time before we know the true efficacy of the vaccine." ...


http://www.newsweek.com/id/154381

This week's NEJM report indicates that the vaccine appeared to be cost-effective for 12-year-olds, assuming that immunity doesn't wane after 10 years; in that case, a booster shot would be required. It also found that "catch-up" programs for 20-somethings may be too expensive.

An NEJM editorial accompanying the study raises other questions about whether the vaccine provides lifelong protection from the virus and whether it should be required by public health officials. "This is still an experiment. And it should be treated that way," says Charlotte Haug, editor in chief of the Journal of the Norwegian Medical Association and author of the NEJM editorial. "There are good reasons to take a deep breath and keep doing the research." ...


http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/08/merck-runs-a-gardasil-special-for-docs/

Merck Runs A Gardasil Special For Docs

As Gardasil revenue disappoints, the drugmaker is scrambling for ways to boost (pun intended) sales of the controversial HPV vaccine. So Merck is now promising docs a free replacement dosage if an insurer refuses coverage, according to Maggie McGlynn, who heads Merck’s vaccines business and mentioned the effort during a conference call with institutional investors arranged by Deutsche Bank today.

Unfortunately for Merck, too many docs have been asking their patients to first check with their health insurers to see if the shots would be covered. As you can imagine, this led to fewer shots.

So McGlynn told the crowd that by having the replacement program, “they will convert to same-day vaccination.” However, this only applies to women between 19 and 26 years old, since younger women and girls can get vaccinated through government-funded programs. The stipulation also extends only to those with private health insurance. You can read the terms right here.

Given the insurance hurdles and controversy over side effects, we wonder why Merck didn’t bring back the Gardasil beach tower at the start of summer to generate some interest.


http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/health&id=6340202

Save lives, but at what cost? The shots have caused almost 10,000 adverse reactions, 94 percent of which were minor, such as headache, nausea and fever. The worst, however, include paralysis and some fatalities. There have been deaths reported soon after women had received the Gardasil vaccine, but the Centers for Disease Control and the FDA say there is no clear evidence that the deaths were caused by the vaccine.

Also, because the vaccine is so new, it's not clear how long immunity will last. "It's not uncommon among other vaccinations," said Dr. Samantha Feder, of St. Luke's/Roosevelt Hospital. "Other vaccinations will require booster shots along somebody's lifetime."

Women will still need pap tests, as there are some strains of HPV not covered by the vaccine. The shots may make women feel falsely protected, and more likely to miss their paps.


http://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/Default.aspx?s=3&s1=2&id=4825

Safety of cervical vaccine questioned

Friday, 22 August 2008
By Jessica Wauchop

The roll-out and safety of the new government-funded human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine came under fire at a Tairawhiti District Health Board meeting this week. Reports of girls having anaphylactic fits and suffering nasty side-effects from the vaccine, more commonly known as Gardasil, which protects against cervical cancer, was brought to the table by board member Brian Wilson.

However, questions have been asked in Australia, where a number of Gardasil recipients say they suffered anaphylaxis, a severe reaction which can lead to a rapid pulse, profuse sweating, laboured breathing and unconsciousness. A total of 1013 suspected adverse events following injections of Gardasil were reported in Australia by June this year - the free immunisation schedule was announced in December 2006. ...

Only 12 confirmed cases of anaphylaxis were reported. The estimated rate of anaphylaxis in Australia is 3.2 per million doses. Other vaccines given to children and adolescents around the world have estimated rates that range from 0 to 3.5 per million doses.


http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/8/17/focus/22087835&sec=focus

Wonder vaccine gets its share of complaints

Unfortunately, the excitement of discovering Gardasil as a protection against the cancer viruses has been marred by the controversy in Australia and the United States on its supposed adverse side effects.

Complaints included temporary paralysis after the vaccine injections, mouth seizure, temporary speechlessness, allergic reactions, headache and soreness.

Year 12 students from the Sacred Heart School in Melbourne were among the first to report adverse reactions after they had been injected with the vaccine.


http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=da813200-cdb5-46b8-9e4e-f774bc187aab

Gardasil Vaccine: Is it safe?
Reported by: Shannon Davidson

The Gardasil Vaccine protects against the Human Papillomavirus, or HPV, which can cause Cervical Cancer. For most girls, they get the three shots and they're done. But, it was a different story for a local girl. Megan Waleff, 13, was pitching at her championship softball tournament two days before leaving for a trip to Australia with 30 other kids as a student ambassador with People to People. Just a few days into her trip Megan was experiencing odd symptoms like slowed speech, and loss of motor skills. "It all of a sudden got really bad and I tripped a couple of times. That's when they took me to the doctor," says Megan.

You can see in Megan's travel journal that as the trip went on her handwriting got progressively worse. The hospital in Darwin, Australia called her parents back home. At first, doctors said she may have had a stroke. "And when they said that I just about fainted," says Megan's mom, Brenda Waleff.

After more tests, the doctors ruled out a stroke, tumors, and Lyme Disease. But there was swelling in Megan's brain. Then they asked Megan's mom if she'd had any vaccinations lately. She had. Two weeks earlier, she'd received the Gardasil Vaccine. "And so when it was her 13 year check-up, they suggested we get it done. So, I thought, 'Ok, then it'll be done,'" says Brenda.

Megan's mom says cancer runs in the family, so she was all for protecting her daughter against cervical cancer. However, she's convinced the Gardasil Vaccine is what caused Megan's symptoms.


http://kaaltv.com/article/stories/S551856.shtml?cat=10219

"Anytime you have an immunization, there's always a chance of an adverse reaction,” says Jay Fotland a nurse practitioner.

While the shots are working fine for many, a new article in the New England Journal of Medicine points to a list of health problems in girls and young woman who recently got the vaccines.

In two years, there are 78 reported outbreaks of genital warts, 18 deaths, and six cases of Guillaine Syndrome that can result in paralysis.

"The doctors were assuring me that it will be okay and that it wouldn't hurt or anything. Nothing happened afterwards so I was happy,” says Claire Christian, who got the vaccine last year. "I just think you weight the odds and the odds of protecting them are higher than the odds of a side effect,” says mother, Joan.


http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008808220360

Two years after a controversial vaccine designed to protect women from cervical cancer became available, some local doctors remain divided on its use while a local assemblywoman is seeking to mandate it for young girls. A study in this week's New England Journal of Medicine questions the cost-effectiveness of the human papillomavirus vaccine for older girls and women. Commonly called HPV, the virus is sexually transmitted and can cause cervical cancer in some women. ...

Other local doctors, like Ephraim E. Resnik, a Pomona gynecologic oncologist, are still skeptical. He has long had concerns about the HPV vaccine. He worries that women who get the series of vaccines will assume - wrongly -that they are fully protected from cervical cancer and stop getting annual Pap tests. Resnik and Zurhellen both oppose policies that would make the vaccine mandatory.

"The worst thing we could do is institute mandatory vaccination against what is essentially a screenable and very curable cancer," Resnik said.

Resnik thinks that the idea of a vaccine to prevent cancer is still one worth pursuing. But there is too much hype about the HPV vaccine. "Our zeal for a vaccine to prevent cancer has overthrown the cool rationale that physician-scientists are supposed to have when we recommend something for an individual or a whole population," Resnik said.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/92131-mercks-gardasil-a-risky-and-unnecessary-vaccine

How Merck got politicians and parents to put Gardasil up there in importance with vaccines for such deadly diseases as polio and smallpox, explains why Gardasil was named “Brand of the Year” by Pharma Executive Magazine, and won the 2008 Pharmaceutical Advertising and Marketing Excellence awards. According to The New York Times, Merck paid hundreds of doctors and nurses $4,500 for each 50 minute talk performed on Gardasil over Merck-sponsored meals. Many even got paid just to attend “advisory board” meetings on the vaccine. Despite the vaccine’s questionable effectiveness for young women in their late teens and early twenties, Gardasil has got promoted from college campuses to ads airing before “Sex and the City” at movie theaters. Merck pays Cornerstone Government Affairs to lobby Congress and the CDC for more federal money for vaccines.

Virginia will become the only state requiring girls get Gardasil to go to school, unless parents opt out. Governor Kaine signed the legislation after Merck said it would spend $57 million to expand its Elkton plant that makes the vaccine. $193 million more was pledged by Merck after the governor signed the bill, with the state providing a $1.5 million grant (on top of a $700,000 grant from an agency that is part of the executive branch). Lieutenant governor Bolling is an active participant in the “Ending Cervical Cancer in Our Lifetime” campaign of the NLGA, financed by Merck and GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), who has a competing vaccine awaiting FDA approval. Mandatory Gardasil for school girls in Texas was signed by the governor and overturned by the legislature after the governor’s former chief of staff was hired by Merck and contributed $6,000 to Governor Perry and $38,000 to other state legislators.

Gardasil retails between $400 to $1,000 for the series of three shots. Gardasil was studied in clinical trials for five years, and as The New England Journal of Medicine article states, “the overall effect of the vaccines on cervical cancer remains unknown.” There are more questions than answers available about Gardasil’s long term effectiveness. To quote a Gardasil ad: “The duration of protection has not been established.” Clinical trials were conducted on 16-24 year old women, not the 11-12 year old girls who the CDC and FDA view as the ideal target, so how it will affect them is still unknown. In some girls in the trials, the vaccine’s immunity was gone after three years. The CDC’s voluntary Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System has logged 6,667 US reports on Gardasil from its June 8, 2006 FDA approval to June 30, 2008. Reports ranging from pain and soreness at the injection site, to nausea and fainting were most commonly reported. Cases of paralysis and 17 US deaths were reported, but the CDC/FDA could not determine if Gardasil was the cause. Gardasil is being given to many girls who are not even menstruating yet; no one knows if these girls’ future fertility/babies will be adversely affected.

The purpose of vaccines prior to Gardasil has been to protect the person receiving the shot from the disease and to protect the community from a contagion spreading. HPV doesn’t spread through airborne or casual contact, and through early detection, is treatable. Policymakers should not be wasting money on a vaccine with little to possibly even a detrimental return when there are so many serious health needs that go unmet in America. I urge parents and young women to look beyond the slick ads and do some serious research on this. When medical providers and politicians tout Gardasil, investigate their vested interest.


http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2008/08/21/a-gardasil-gotcha.aspx

Getting a drug through the FDA often isn't enough for drug companies. To make money, they've also got to persuade someone -- usually health insurers like UnitedHealth Group (NYSE: UNH) or Aetna (NYSE: AET) -- to pay for the product.

That's what makes this week's article and editorial in The New England Journal of Medicine about Merck's (NYSE: MRK) Gardasil so worrisome for Merck and GlaxoSmithKline (NYSE: GSK). Glaxo is hoping to bring its own human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine, Cervarix, to the U.S. market. The article basically concludes that the vaccination is worth the money -- about $360 to $400 for a three-dose series -- for young girls, but not for women in their 20s. One of the authors said that "the vaccine becomes less cost-effective" for older women.

The problem is that Gardasil is approved for females aged 9 through 26. That's fine as far as it goes, but Merck has been trying to get it approved for women through age 45. Even if it succeeds in getting the label expanded, it might be difficult to get insurers and government agencies to pay for the vaccine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Dissent Is Patriotic Donating Member (793 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. I knew when we were bombarded with these commercials
that this stuff had to be poison. I'd like to know which of the fine people in the current administration have profited from this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. O good. So Texas doesn't have to immunize there young
women anymore?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. They never did
Sheesh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. This drug is an example of how the American people are manipulated
"In two years, cervical cancer has gone from obscure killer confined mostly to poor nations to the West's disease of the moment"

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Cervical cancer was never seen as an 'obscure killer'.
In the UK, over 2000 women are diagnosed with cervical cancer each year, of whom about one-third will eventually die of it. In the US, I believe about 11,000 women a year get it, and a bit under 4000 die of it. It's been reduced by regular Pap smears, but that's STILL more Americans *each year* dying of cervical cancer than were killed on 9-11!

And even the majority who survive have to undergo unpleasant and painful treatments, which lead to bad side-effects and usually cause permanent infertility, and to live with the fear of a recurrence.

And I don't like the idea that diseases that mainly affect people in developing countries are thereby 'obscure' or less worthy of attention - would you say this of malaria, or TB, or AIDS? In fact, one of the problems with Big Pharma is that their research and treatments often target mainly the diseases prevalent in better-off countries.

I understand that you are suspicious of Gardasil, but that is not a reason to dismiss or minimize cervical cancer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. In the US cervical cancer was a small health risk that was consistently getting smaller
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 08:27 AM by mhatrw
by an average of 4% every year for the last 40 years.

Among US women who were getting regular pap smears who results were being read correctly, cervical cancer mortality rates were already extremely minute.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. While it is true that Pap smears have brought down cervical cancer deaths considerably...
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 08:33 AM by LeftishBrit
it still kills at least 3700 women a year in the USA. And about twice that number survive the disease, but have to go through several years of anxiety and to undergo the treatment and all its consequences.

Whether you think Gardasil is the best form of prevention is another issue; but cervical cancer is *not* just a 'small health risk'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. If the trend of reducing cervical cancer had just continued to decline
by 4% per year (and with expected advances in testing and treatment that would have been a very conservative estimate), the annual mortality would have dropped below 1000 lives a year within 33 years, about the time it will take for current the Gardasil vaccinations of pre-teens to have any significant effect.

Now consider that, in the best case scenario with 100% coverage, 100% efficacy, etc., Gardasil could have saved just 700 of these 1000. That's assuming the vaccination of about 150 million women at a cost about $70 billion. And if just 1 in 20,000 women who are vaccinated suffer serious side effects, 7500 women will be harmed to the 700 saved and Gardasil will be doing more harm than good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. 3700/150,000,000. Fewer female deaths than from car accidents. Fewer
Edited on Mon Aug-25-08 11:11 PM by Hannah Bell
Fewer than from murder, or from suicide.

& the majority in women over 40.

It's obvious "deaths" aren't the issue; if they were, we'd ban cars: 43,000 deaths in 2000 from car crashes alone, & double that in disabilities; about half of those are girls or women.

Yes, CC is a small health risk. Small. & both cases & deaths are declining, not rising.

There's no compelling public health issue, especially with a 20-year gap between the vaccination risk & the presumed benefit. "Presumed" - because it's not been definitively proven there will be any reduction in cancers & the evidence won't be in for at least 10 more years. OTOH, it's known that all vaccines carry a small risk (1-3%) of serious side effects. It's not worth endangering children now to "possibly" reduce rare cancers 20 years from now.

It's graft to Merck, pure & simple.


In 2002, 1.2 women died: 3700/1,200,000 = .3% of deaths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Car accidents and murder and suicide are also well-recognized dangers!
3700 people is a lot of people.

What really makes me uncomfortable is that this sort of dismissal of 'small' numbers is ammunition to cost-cutting governments or insurance companies who may take any excuse to regard so-called 'rare' diseases as 'low priority' for treatments or preventive measures.

The profit motive isn't all on one side. There are plenty of financial interests in *restricting* people's access to medicines, as well as in over-promoting certain medicines.

If you honestly think that Gardasil isn't the best prevention for cervical cancer - fine; but it's not a reason for dismissing the prevalence and importance of the disorder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. no, 3700 isn't a lot of people; not in comparison with total population,
total number of adult women, total women's deaths, or total deaths from cancer.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #38
77. So what? Unless your point is that Gardasil is diverting resources from other cancers that kill more
Edited on Thu Aug-28-08 09:09 AM by LeftishBrit
people, then this issue should be irrelevant. Does 9-11 not matter because it 'only' killed 3000 people; or Katrina because it killed less than 2000; or the London bombing of 2005 because it 'only' killed 52?

Every time people dismiss a terrible disease as not worth seriously bothering about because it doesn't kill tens of thousands (at least not in one year), the representatives of stingy insurance companies, and the RW politicians who want to save on health-care or health-related foreign aid, start rubbing their hands with glee!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. It is listed as rare disease in the US & Gardasil hasn't even been tested as an "anti cancer" vac
Edited on Sat Aug-23-08 02:06 PM by WillYourVoteBCounted
Gardasil is a vaccine to prevent certain strains of HPV which have been tied
to pre cancerous conditions of the cervix,

AS has cigarett smoking and other things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Women's news: Cervical Cancer Tied to Secondhand Smoke
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Cervical cancer tied to pill use.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. Male circumcision tied to lower cervical Ca risk | OB/GYN News ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Thanks for the updates! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. And all of these things have also been publicized...
and can be used in making decisions.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. I read through all of this...
...and the information in these articles--from reliable sources, like the New England Journal of Medicine
and many others--is just stunning.

Gardasil was only tested for five years--and NEVER on 11-12 year old girls--the demographic that is being
vaccinated. Repeatedly--doctors and other medical researchers stated that the long-term effects of Gardisil
are "unknown."

Plus, the benefits are reported to possibly wear off in a few years and some researchers are suggesting
that other strains of HPV could become more common due to this vaccine. Gardasill does not protect
against all HPV strains. Pap smears are still needed.

Given the unknowns and Merck's profit-centric business model--combined with the 9,000 reported
side effects, some including death and paralysis--I think I'll opt out for my two young daughters.

I'm not anti-vaccine. Both of my children had their battery of immunizations at birth and 5-years old.

However, one cannot ignore that big pharma has some very serious problems. The FDA is bought-and-paid
for and staffed with "heckofajobBrownie" back slappers. I no longer trust our government to make sound,
safe decisions for the people when they're too busy helping corporations make billions.

Merck's aggressive marketing and public relations smacks of PT-Barnum.

Each parent must weigh all information and make these decisions for their children and families. I
decide 'no', based on the unknown, long-term effects and other reliable, safe means to test for HPV.

What if deleterious, long-term effects do surface? What will I tell my daughters? "Sorry girls...Mommy
got caught up in the pretty commercials and fear appeals and I never questioned anything because I
assumed that the pharmaceutical companies and the government had your best interest at heart."

Sorry, no.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. It's up to you...
but there's also the chance of your having to say, 'Sorry girls, Mommy got so caught up in the scaremongering about all Big Pharma products being the evil, that I didn't give you the jab that could have protected you from the illness you are suffering now'.

It's your decision about your own children, but I would object to any campaign against the vaccine being made available to all who wish to have it.

And with vaccines, if they have dangerous side-effects, these are likely to be manifested almost immediately - not in many years' time (unlike drugs and hormones, where there could be a long-term effect.)

Such decisions should be up to the individual, or in the case of children to their parents. I don't believe in vaccine (or other medical) mandates except in the case of severe public health emergencies; but I strongly believe in the universal *availability* of this vaccine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Excuse me...
...but I'm my child's protector. It's not my job to listen to pharmaceutical ads and run
out like a lemming and get my kids injected with something that has unknown consequences.

Pap smears detect pre-cancerous or cancerous cells. Because I'm my girl's protector, they'll
get check ups, great health care and pap smears.

Pap smears have no long-term consequences, at this point--not ONE medical researcher or expert
can say for sure that Gardisil causes no long-term effects. The trial studies were only for
five years---and they were not conducted on children. They were conducted on adults.

Furthermore, I'm not afraid or a victim of "scaremongering" as you so rudely put it. Nice
red herring. I'm an aware, intelligent mom who reads. I'm making an informed, rational
decision based on the facts. I'm not scared. I've just got my eyes wide open.

I'm not saying Gardisil is "evil" as you said. I'm saying--and so does the medical community--that
we don't know the long-term effects of Gardisil.

It's rational and responsible to research, weigh the information and make an informed choice--as
I have.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I put it 'so rudely' because that's how it was put with regard to those who DO support Gardasil
If you think it's rude or unjustified to accuse those who choose NOT to take Gardasil of falling victim to 'scaremongering' about Big Pharma, then logically it's JUST as rude and unjustified to accuse people who DO choose Gardasil of falling victim to 'scaremongering', trusting Big Pharma and the government on everything, etc.

I'm quite happy to treat the whole matter as *everyone* honestly making the decision for themselves/ their children on the basis of the information that they have about the risks and benefits. But if you don't like people implying that *your* decisions could be based on being brainwashed by scaremongering, perhaps you should consider that *other people* may not care to have it implied that *their* decisions are based on being brainwashed by scaremongering - or worse, that their motives are immoral and mercenary. And this is happening all the time here! If the anti-Gardasil people can't take it, maybe they shouldn't dish it out quite so much.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. reminds me of DES fifty years ago
My mother took DES on the advise of her OB for her last three pregnancies of which I was one. Years later it is discovered to cause numerous health issues to the children carried while the mother took it. I attribute my infertility/POS to DES exposure.

I would NEVER give gardasil to my children. EVER.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I agree leftchick...
I think there are too many unknowns, as many reputable and intelligent doctors repeatedly say.

There is clear evidence that Gardisil was rushed to market. The long-term effects are not
know.

The FDA has made mistakes before. Furthermore, the current pro-corporate environment and the
corruption in government, makes this a no-brainer for me. I'm not going to take chances with my children,
that's for sure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. earlier than that - hysterectomies recommended for most female problems
My mom took DES when pregnant with my brother.

Many different doctors wanted to do a hysterectomy on her for various health problems,
but she refused. She is fine as far as the health of her female organs go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
13. Gardasil Roundup.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Desist, you Fundamentalist Merckenary!
:rofl:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. .
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 09:27 AM by cosmik debris
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. You know what...
I began reading about Gardisil a while ago, because I have two daughters.

I'm not anti-vaccine. My girls were both vaccinated when they were babies and they
recently had their 5-year shots.

I have a degree in science writing--and I've always felt that it is prudent to read
current information about any health decision. Plus, I love reading
medical research. We have a subscriptions "Scientific American" and "The Scientist"
and my favorite part of the "New York Times" is "Science Times."

I read a lot about science because it's interesting and I like to stay informed. I
didn't begin reading about Gardisil because I was some crazed loon. I read because
I was curious.

After reading about Gardisil--there are undeniable facts that medical researchers
and even the makers of Gardisil admit: The long-term effects of Gardisil are
unknown; the clinical trials were not performed on the target age (girls ages 11-12);
Gardisil fails to prevent 30 percent of HPV whereas a pap smear detects all
HPV.

There is nothing crazy, stupid or freakish about a mom wanting the best for her
children and deciding that a vaccine--for which there are side-effect-free alternatives (pap
smear)--is not such a good idea for her young girls, until more research is conducted.
That's not half-cocked, chicken-little talk. That's the informed, rational choice of a caring mom.

One thing that surprises me most about Gardisil--is the contingent of rude and
Rovian-like people who show up--not to discuss facts, but to position people
who aren't falling in line--as crazed, imbalanced lunatics.

I find this very bizarre and insulting.

You can't point to any data that proves that there are no deleterious, long-term effects
to Gardisil--yet you'll position a pro-active, rational mom as some kind of
freak--simply because she won't joyfully climb on the Gardisil bandwagon.

I'm carefully weighing the facts. I have to wonder what people like you are doing.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I don't think you are crazy or a freak; I think you have a right to your own decisions
However, you have been stereotyping those who make a different decision as "Mommy got caught up in the pretty commercials and fear appeals and I never questioned anything because I assumed that the pharmaceutical companies and the government had your best interest at heart." This is just as bad and judgemental a stereotype as the one you perceive from others.

I do disagree about the likelihood of a *vaccine*, as opposed to a drug, having 'long-term' side-effects that don't show up at the time. When vaccines affect people negatively, this generally takes the form of a severe reaction at the time, which may in the worst cases prove fatal or lead to permanent damage. But it is *not* likely that a vaccine would seem not to have any effect, and then suddenly turn out to have consequences many years down the line. I don't dismiss the latter as a danger for some medications - I've had to make difficult decisions myself about treatments that are known to have potential long-term effects. But vaccines are not in the same category as drugs or hormones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. Hear hear
I've been having difficultly expressing this exact thing even half as clearly. Thank you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Carpeting the forum with anti gardasil post is also extreme,
The rabid anti-vaxers show absolutely no constraint in their single-minded crusade to swift boat Merck and gardasil. They have gone beyond argument, beyond rant, beyond diatribe. They have become a parody of their own argument.

The evidence to support my position that they have gone off the deep end is clear and irrefutable. Just count the posts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Each one of these articles could have been its own post.
What I did here is the exactly opposite of carpet bombing this forum. I posted about 20 articles from the past week about Gardasil in a single thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. How many is enough?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. One More (tm)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
psychmommy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. i agree. i am doing the same thing.
i don't buy the new perfume or jeans or sport's drink because everybody else is doing it. my mom taught me "if jimmy decides to jump off of the bridge are you gonna follow him". not only was she teaching me not to be a follower, but, to stop and think for myself before i jump into something. i am stopping and thinking, asking questions and reading. this is my prepubescent daughter, my only child. the way some folks on here behave, makes my antennae go up. makes me think there is more behind the smokescreen they try to put up. keep reading and if you get something good or bad please post it because i am learning too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. me too. I don't plan to have my daughter be a beta test
when her health could be at risk.

Right now, she is healthy, and she has the facts about Safe Sex (oxymoron).
She knows about HPV etc.

She knows about pap smears.

But she isn't going to leap over the cliff because of a very well orchestrated
marketing campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
33. Merck Defaces Facebook
http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1533086/changing_channels

A number of healthcare marketers are already using social networking channels with great success. Merck, for example, has leveraged Facebook to maximum effect for its Gardasil vaccine. More than 50,000 people have joined the Gardasil group, which uses surveys, stories, fact sheets, banners and more to promote and offer information about the brand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
36. A treasure trove of info. Thanks, mhatrw! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
39. kick n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. You learned little. Science doesn't need guardians and censors.
Edited on Wed Aug-27-08 02:26 AM by mhatrw
Science can handle open discussion, even if you cannot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. When you get your science from TV news shows and magazines
You end up with astounding ignorance.

If you are satisfied with that, I guess there is not much that can help you.

The scientific community relies on real studies and tests, not news magazines to determine the safety and efficacy of a drug.

If you cited and quoted the studies directly rather than citing some reporters sensationalized coverage of the grieving "victims" you might actually get a little respect here.

But of course you can't cite and quote the actual studies, because you didn't read them. You just read a couple of newspaper articles about the problem and pretended that you knew it all.

That's lazy man's science and never results in accurate understanding of the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I've posted the NEJM's cost effectiveness study on Gardasil.
I've read every word of every article the NEJM or JAMA has ever published on Gardasil.

How about you? What medical journals do you post around here? All I've ever seen you post is newspaper reports filled with Chicken Little ranting about the supposed looming catastrophe we are facing because a handful of weirdos refused to get measles and mumps vaccinations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. That wasn't me, you're confused again.
When you start backing up your bullshit with facts, you won't see me around any more.

(And that means real facts, not made up facts)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. So what medical journal articles have YOU posted here?
What posts of any substance have you made? Your stalk/quip/adhom/tagteam to substantive post ratio is 100 to 1.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Why are you obsessed with me and my posting.
You've got enough trouble proving your own claims without giving me the third degree.

If you want substantive conversation, post substantive statements.

If you want gossip about other people, post about the behavior of other people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Why are you obsessed with me and my posting? (You needed a "?" there.)
You have (delete "got") enough trouble proving your own claims without giving me the third degree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I guess that is your way of saying that the claims you made
were bogus and you can't prove what you say without making up facts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. So I just checked. You haven't posted a medical journal paper here in the past year.
Edited on Wed Aug-27-08 06:12 PM by mhatrw
And exactly half of your OPs on this forum in the last year are newspaper or news program articles about science.

How does it feel to be exposed as such a rank hypocrite?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Nothing improves your image like a good tantrum
Edited on Wed Aug-27-08 06:14 PM by cosmik debris
And you are throwing a doozy of a tantrum now!

When it is over would you be kind enough to back up your claim that the HPV vaccine is more dangerous than the cancer?

Please?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Nothing improves YOUR image like rank hypocrisy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. That's a pretty fancy tantrum you've got there
When you are through, prove your claim about the vaccine being more dangerous than the cancer.

No made up facts please.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Please explain your rank hypocrisy.
Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Stop your tantrum long enough to prove your claim.
If you can.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Apologize for your rank hypocrisy. You are just making this harder on yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Did you ever apologize for using made up facts to scare people?
TWICE?

Prove your claim.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. What's wrong? Did you take the Hypocritic Oath or something?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. CAUTION, MELT DOWN IN PROGRESS
Edited on Wed Aug-27-08 07:07 PM by cosmik debris
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. Yes, yours.
Not only are you being hypocritical, but you are being unapologetically hypocritical.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. FOUR times you have been caught using made up facts.
How many more time will you use made up facts?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. Your accusations and attacks are wholly without merit.
You are screaming like a stuck pig because your rank hypocrisy has been exposed for everyone to see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Your quotes have been posted in another thread
You can't escape your own words. The internet never forgets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. You can scream all you want, but you can't escape the fact that your rank hypocrisy was exposed.
Edited on Thu Aug-28-08 04:44 PM by mhatrw
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. You are changing the subject because you got caught in a lie n/t
Edited on Thu Aug-28-08 05:01 PM by cosmik debris
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. Just because I like to prove you wrong.
Here are a couple of examples where I posted conclusions and links from scientific studies to support my position.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=35375&mesg_id=35423

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=35375&mesg_id=35425

Why can't you do that?

Is Google too complicated for you?

But be careful, because if you blow smoke at me, this is what happens. Read the 20 or so posts that follow this turkey's post to see what happens when you blow smoke.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=36018&mesg_id=36074

Yes, I do love to smack down people who blow smoke. This guy picked up the nickname 0fer18 because I read all 18 of the studies he cited just to counter his claims.

So, when you said "You haven't posted a medical journal paper here in the past year." That brings the total to FOUR times you have been caught making up facts. How's that working out for you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. That was awesome.
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. FOUR times now she has been caught making up facts
It makes you wonder how many we didn't catch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Her claims evolve over time,
but only if you challenge them. Left alone, they become the cut and paste standard for medical conspiracy forums everywhere.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #68
73. Nice try. You haven't posted a medical journal OP here in the past year.
Edited on Thu Aug-28-08 01:16 AM by mhatrw
Meanwhile, a full 50% of your OPs have been links to articles from the very same news programs or newspapers that you hypocritically claimed lead to "astounding ignorance." Anyone here can easily confirm your unabashed hypocrisy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. You got caught so you moved the goal post.
Made up facts don't count.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. YOU have been exposed as a rank hypocrite.
You said that getting your science from newspaper or news program articles leads to profound ignorance, yet half of your OPs in the last year have been news program or newspaper articles about science.

Can you deny this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. I made no scientific claims based on news articles.
You are still the prime example of the truth of my statement.

I believe that make YOU the hypocrite.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. And I forgot to say thanks for proving BMUS's post
about how your claims evolve.

It was quite nice of you to post your "Evolved Claim" right next to her post about your evolving claims.

The positioning could not be better.

And the next time we need to prove that you're blowing smoke, it will be easy to find the evidence.

Thanks a million!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
42. So how do you see your moral crusade ending?
Do you expect to save the world or just the DU health forum?

Have you made any converts, or have you just pissed off a lot of people?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. What people have I pissed off?
Why are you so pissed off?

Why do you care so much about this personally that you stalk me from thread to thread?

Can't you see that's counterproductive?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Head-On, apply directly to the forehead. Head-On, apply directly to the forehead.
You won't answer my questions because you would have to admit that the moral crusade of yours has no end. You are going to keep spamming until the mods stop you.

Your goal has nothing to do with informing people, it is to dominate the conversation and shout down any dissent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Watch out for those run on sentences, cd.
My goal has everything to do with informing people.

You are the one trying to shout me down because you cannot counter my arguments logically.

You plan to keep up your holy war against me personally until you force the moderators to censor me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Right, I'm going to force the Mods to censor you! ROFL!!!!!
See, that's why I like you. You are always good for a laugh. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Can't speak for everyone...
but what 'pisses *me* off' is:

(1) I really don't appreciate being accused of corrupt and mercenary motives for my beliefs!

(2) I think that there is a disproportionate focus on only ONE side of the dangers of financial vested interests in medicine. More patients suffer and die (even in the USA and UK, let alone developing countries) from being deprived of access to necessary medicines than from having unnecessary ones pushed on them; and there is a danger that an exclusive focus on the latter will give aid and comfort to cost-cutting governments and insurance companies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. OK, that's very reasonable. Thanks for the substantive reply. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
55. Add these two recent NY Times articles to your list
The Evidence Gap
Drug Makers’ Push Leads to Cancer Vaccines’ Rise

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/health/policy/20vaccine.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin

Researchers Question Wide Use of HPV Vaccines
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/21/health/21vaccine.html?fta=y

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
78. I read the articles in the OP -- very informative. Thanks! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 02nd 2024, 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Health Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC