Children Who Get Flu Vaccine Have Three Times Risk Of Hospitalization For Flu, Study Suggests

[Hannah Bell]

ScienceDaily (May 20, 2009) — The inactivated flu vaccine does not appear to be effective in preventing influenza-related hospitalizations in children, especially the ones with asthma. In fact, children who get the flu vaccine are more at risk for hospitalization than their peers who do not get the vaccine, according to new research that will be presented on May 19, at the 105th International Conference of the American Thoracic Society in San Diego.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090519172045.htm

[Chemisse]

1. Interesting

I wonder if the kids who have the worst asthma are the ones who would be more likely to get the vaccine, skewing the results.

That aside, it is a stunning result. Even the suggestion of such a negative effect should halt the mass vaccination of children against the seasonal flu.

I'm sure it won't though. Making the annual flu vaccine is a big profit-making business. We have seen the recommendations for getting the flu shot jump from those who are vulnerable to pretty much everybody.

[Dappleganger]

7. I'm going to take this article in to our next pulmo visit

and see what our doctor thinks about it. We get the annual call for vaccines and I've doubted their efficacy for some time.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[backscatter712]

3. There might actually be something...

to those that claim the flu shot gave them the flu?

[L. Coyote]

4. The last time immunization for swine flu was halted due to the high number of deaths.

[pnwmom]

5. K & R.

[Dappleganger]

6. Thank you for posting this info!

So does this mean that it's not a good idea for me and our four asthmatic kids to get the yearly flu vaccine? The kids ALWAYS get the vaccine, but I have not the past two years because on two other occasions got the flu despite having the vaccine and it was pretty bad. Kids are 17, 16, 13 and 11.

I am just now getting over the flu and while it wasn't a fun experience it was nowhere near as bad as the other two times that I can remember. Maybe it just depends upon the strain. BTW, I am taking regular asthma treatments because of the complications.

[seabeyond]

8. ah, the argument that insists i and children get flu shots. though children have never had the flu

in 14 yrs and i have had it once in 47 years. and with that, i argue that can get the flu getting the shot (not from personal experience, but experience from dude that get shot yearly) and being ridiculed, sneered at and so much more, expressing what i have been told

where are all the people that rant on these threads pro, .... insulting all that may challenge the argument. theya re not to be found. not even a simple... isnt that interesting, maybe i ought to "think" about this.

[Celebration]

9. Yeah, I put this in the Health Forum a few days ago

It was virtually ignored there, except for a few people thinking everyone should be vaccinated.

Glad to recommend.

[seabeyond]

11. isnt the silence amazing deafening. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

12. you mean you weren't attacked for being a "woo"? were they all on vacation?

[TalkingDog]

26. Maybe they all got their flu shots....

with the inevitable result.

I am always amused by them that puts their faith in the health for a profit crowd.

[Hannah Bell]

29. ah well, this one wound up here too, thanks to the anti-woos.

but i have some degree of belief that they will eventually be eating some of their words.

[uppityperson]

30. Do vitamin makers and Naturopaths not make a profit?

again, I am on both sides of this continuing battle. I am employed in both western and alternative medicine/health care and believe there is no one right answer for everyone everytime. I have a tendency to doubt things which cannot be proven, as it is too easy to claim things. That is for both western and alternative things though.

I also have a tendency to dislike claims from either side, claims of things that are not true.

I hate insurance companies, they are out ONLY for profit. But,last time I looked, vitamin manufacturers, naturopaths, CAM practitioners, people selling natural and/or herbal products, they all make a profit also.

[Why Syzygy]

31. Probably

your efforts to censor information in the health forum has cost your credibility.

[uppityperson]

33. Good grief. Funny how you carry over from another thread.

Irregardless of your edit in that other thread, here is what I wrote there. Want to go back there, or merely follow me around and insult me? Or would you like me to merely not participate in discussions here, sort of censor me?



I am not a "small group" doing an "antic" or a "stinky tactic"

Trying to figure out how to make it work, as a member of DU, same as you. I am sorry you are taking offense as I am trying to figure out a way to stop the insults and slams and be able for all of us to get the info shared in a positive way.

I am sorry that you see a discussion like this as "trying to impose their will upon the greater community". If I were trying to do that, I would do it directly through admin, not by posting a topic for discussion

[uppityperson]

34. Probably they do or they do not make a profit?

[mzmolly]

10. K and R. I hope more studies in this regard

will follow.

[Festivito]

13. Unless... have to wonder if a large population of unvaccinated...

would NOT end up at the Mayo clinic at all in order that these numbers would then be skewed in the manner here revealed.

Perhaps a prevalent naturalist attitude that would keep many from getting vaccinated and keep those same people from going into a hospital at all.

Can't prove or disprove. Time can tell.

Interesting.

[Ex Lurker]

14. Children rarely get flu vaccines unless there's an underlying condition

that puts them more at risk for the flu, so it stands to reason they'd have more hospitalizations. That doesn't mean the vaccine caused it.

[Hannah Bell]

15. you're misinformed. flu vaccination of all children 24 months to 18 yo is the official

pediatric rec. Prior to this, all kids 6 mo to 2 yo was the standard rec.

"Since the time the survey was conducted, the CDC has expanded its pediatric recommendation to include routine vaccination of children aged 24 months to 18 years (previously it was only recommended for children ages 6 months to 23 months and high-risk children older than 2 years)."

http://www.uchsc.edu/news/newsrelease/2009/feb/vaccine.htm

[Ex Lurker]

35. apparently that recommendation isn't widely known

I have three nephews under the age of 8 who've never had a flu shot, and not because their parents are anti-vaccine.

[seabeyond]

16. some states are pushing making it mandatory that kids get these shots

and it is heavily recommended by the pediatricians. i know my pediatricians has a big push on these flu vaccinations and he is the top in the city.

[johnaries]

17. Before anyone jumps to any conclusions,

I think everyone should go to the link. The article also quotes Dr.Joshi of the Mayo Clinic as saying

"While these findings do raise questions about the efficacy of the vaccine, they do not in fact implicate it as a cause of hospitalizations,... More studies are needed to assess not only the immunogenicity, but also the efficacy of different influenza vaccines in asthmatic subjects."

There are also links to other studies on the same page:

Annual Flu Shot Cuts Need For Doctors' Visits, Hospitalization Among Children (Sep. 4, 2007)

Flu Shot Protects Kids, Even During Years With A Bad Vaccine Match (Nov. 12, 2008)

Mother's Flu Shot Protects Newborns (Sep. 19, 2008)

New Hospital Standards Needed For Pediatric Flu Vaccines (Feb. 4, 2008

Global Study Concludes 'Attack Rate' Of Flu In Kids Is 55 Percent Lower With Nasal Spray Vaccine (Feb. 16, 2007)


Obviously, a lot more study needs to be done.

[Hannah Bell]

18. it's always the case that more study needs to be done.

[Hannah Bell]

19. scientific research not suited for GD if it has to do with vaccines. the anti-woo

brigade strikes again to relegate all that doesn't fit their paradigm to the outer darkness.

[xchrom]

20. you are woo -- 100% woo.

lets compare hospitalizations of asthmatics in un vaccinated areas of the world with a current flu epidemic -- and see how the numbers add up.

celebration had no rejoinder or any evidence when confronted with this a few days ago -- which is why the few responses.

what you post for your purposes is stupid - but that's not surprising.

[Hannah Bell]

21. it's not just asthmatics. don't let your failure to read the article prevent you from commenting.

"They found that children who had received the flu vaccine had three times the risk of hospitalization, as compared to children who had not received the vaccine.

In asthmatic children, there was a significantly higher risk of hospitalization in subjects who received the TIV, as compared to those who did not (p= 0.006)."


Relative risk of hospitalization 3 times higher for *all* children in the study, not just asthmatics.

For those kids, risk even more significant.

p = .006. I know what that means. Do you?

[xchrom]

22. YOU missed the point and didn't print the

part about not drawing a particular conclusion -- which of course you do.

as per woo usual.

again what would the hospitilization be of asthmatics in unvaccinated populations?

[Hannah Bell]

23. i haven't drawn any particular conclusion. if you think i have, it's solely due to *your*

own biases & projection, as per anti-woo usual.

i didn't miss your point. it's simply irrelevant, since non-asthmatics who'd gotten the jab *also* had higher hospitalization rates, i.e. *all children* who got the shot had higher hospitalization rates in this study.

doesn't support speculation that in a population where *no one* was vaccinated, hospitalization would be even higher.

you can speculate, but *this* study provides no supporting evidence.

[xchrom]

24. you are trying to draw a coclusion about the jabs them selves.

and you stand obviously drawing a conclusion the people making the study want to do.

what was the wording exactly again?

i mean you put up the study -- so report the caveat. or ask to have this deleted -- it is a dupe after all.

and you should answer the qustion about asthmatics in unvaccinated areas.

[Hannah Bell]

25. i'm reporting the findings of this study. period.

which caveat is that? you mean the standard "more study needed"?

you haven't read much research, have you?

[xchrom]

27. it said more than that -- and you know it

and i'm sure you know it ws reported here earlier -- and you are purposefully omitting the parts you don't like.

you are not being truthful with your 'reporting the findings'.

[Hannah Bell]

28. go ahead then, you're free to post the other findings. interesting you don't.

[uppityperson]

32. Correlation does not equal causation. I'd like to see more studies done

Are children who get the vaccine more likely to have insurance? Are children who get the vaccine more likely to already have health issues leading them to be hospitalized more anyway?

As the last paragraph of your OP article states ""While these findings do raise questions about the efficacy of the vaccine, they do not in fact implicate it as a cause of hospitalizations," said Dr. Joshi. "More studies are needed to assess not only the immunogenicity, but also the efficacy of different influenza vaccines in asthmatic subjects.""

[AdHocSolver]

36. Many years ago, I worked in a hospital in which employees were "mandated" to take a new flu vaccine.

Since we were exposed to so many sick people in the hospital, the rationale was that we were more likely to get sick ourselves and spread the disease to other patients.

I went with the other employees in my department to the clinic where the flu shots were being given. When my turn came to get the vaccine, I was asked to sign a release form which stated that I would not hold the drug company that made the vaccine nor the government liable if I got sick.

I smelled a proverbial rat, and I refused to sign. They put a lot of verbal pressure on me to sign. Everyone else signed and got the shot and signed the waiver. I was holding up the process. People had to get back to work. Blah, blah, blah. I refused to sign. I pointed out that if the stuff worked as well as they claimed, why do I have to sign away my rights?

At this question, they told me I was uncooperative, that I was probably going to get sick, and to leave and go back to work. They implied that I may get into trouble with the bosses. Another guy in line with me also refused to sign. They gave him the same lecture and sent him away.

To my knowledge, everyone else got the vaccine. Within two to three weeks, most of my department was sick with the flu. The other guy and I, who didn't get the flu shot, never experienced so much as a sniffle.

Having worked in hospitals, I am dubious about a lot of what the doctors and drug companies promote.

[kevinthomas]

37. unaware of this fact

is it true i was unaware of this fact.
thanks.

[LeftishBrit]

38. I suspect that one reason is that those children who *get* the flu vaccine...

get it because they're in a vulnerable group to start with, and therefore are more likely to be hospitalized if they do get flu.

I would, however, agree that the flu vaccination is not as effective as it could be - partly because it is based on an *estimate*, which may not always be fully accurate, of what flu viruses will be prevalent the following year. Certainly I know people who've had the vaccine and got the flu anyway. I think if lots of people get the vaccine, it creates some herd immunity and reduces the spread of flu- but in most years it's probably only moderately effective in any given individual. I hope that a vaccine will be developed that has more universal applicability to all flu viruses, and is more effective. I've heard that there's work going on there, but it will probably be a few years before such a vaccine is available.