"The One True Cause of All Disease"

[HuckleB]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3067

"Chiropractors, homeopaths, naturopaths, acupuncturists, and other alternative medicine practitioners constantly criticize mainstream medicine for “only treating the symptoms,” while alternative medicine allegedly treats “the underlying causes” of disease.

Nope. Not true. Exactly backwards. Think about it. When you go to a doctor with a fever, does he just treat the symptom? No, he tries to figure out what’s causing the fever and if it’s pneumonia, he identifies which microbe is responsible and gives you the right drugs to treat that particular infection. If you have abdominal pain, does the doctor just give you narcotics to treat the symptom of pain? No, he tries to figure out what’s causing the pain and if he determines you have acute appendicitis he operates to remove your appendix.

I guess what they’re trying to say is that something must have been wrong in the first place to allow the disease to develop. But they don’t have any better insight into what that something might be than scientific medicine does. All they have is wild, imaginative guesses. And they all disagree with one another. The chiropractor says if your spine is in proper alignment you can’t get sick. Acupuncturists talk about the proper flow of qi through the meridians. Energy medicine practitioners talk about disturbances in energy fields. Nutrition faddists claim that people who eat right won’t get sick. None of them can produce any evidence to support those claims. No alternative medicine has been scientifically shown to prevent disease or to cure it. If it had, it would have been incorporated into conventional medicine and would no longer be “alternative.”

Are these practitioners treating the underlying cause, or are they simply applying their one chosen tool to treat everything? Chiropractors treat every patient with chiropractic adjustments. What if a doctor used one treatment for everything? You have pneumonia? Here’s some penicillin. You have a broken leg? Here’s some penicillin. You have diabetes? Here’s some penicillin. Acupuncturists only know to stick needles in people. Homeopaths only know to give out ridiculously high dilutions that amount to nothing but water. Therapeutic touch practitioners only know to smooth out the wrinkles in imaginary energy fields. They are not trying to determine any underlying cause: they are just using one treatment indiscriminately.

..."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Somewhat overdone, but mostly a very good discussion of this "issue," IMO.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

1. THEY ARE ALL QUACKS

[FLAprogressive]

2. Homeopathy is bullshit....acupuncture is too for the most part.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

43. homeopathy structures water at the quantum level. Water has

memory and most likely consciousness. The royal family in England use homeopaths. Your mileage may vary.

[Liberal Veteran]

45. Logically that would mean that every drop of water you drink is homeopathic piss and shit.

And most municipal water supplies are homeopathic versions of every medication, poison, toxin, pollutant that ever existed.

[HuckleB]

46. I just had a big glass of water, I'm cured of everything!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

51. Something to consider

Forsch Komplementmed. 2006 Jun;13(3):174-83. Epub 2006 Jun 26.
Towards a new model of the homeopathic process based on quantum field theory.

Milgrom LR.

Department of Chemistry, Imperial College, London, UK. [e-mail]

BACKGROUND: Quantum theory's notions of non-locality and entanglement have previously informed attempts to model the therapeutic process. Of these, Weak Quantum Theory (WQT) and Patient- Practitioner-Remedy (PPR) entanglement are developing into mathematically- based models of homeopathy. OBJECTIVE: The present study attempted to identify fundamental concepts within quantum field theory (QFT) that could be used to broaden the scope of PPR entanglement models, prior to constructing a more rigorous mathematical treatment. METHODS: In QFT, particles and forces are considered as fully interacting relativistic quantum matter and force fields, respectively. These interactions are visualized graphically as spacetime Feynman diagrams. Further, these interacting field systems can have ground states with broken symmetry; the so-called Higgs field being responsible for this symmetry breaking.

In the new model, patient, practitioner and remedy are imagined as fully interacting quantum-like fields; patients and practitioners in terms of quantum matter-type fields, and remedies and diseases as quantum interaction-type fields. RESULTS: Disease manifestation by the Vital Force (Vf) could be an event similar to spontaneous symmetry breaking in QFT: the curative remedy acting to restore the broken symmetry of the Vf field. Entanglement between patient, practitioner, and remedy might be representable as Feynman-like diagrams. CONCLUSION: QFT demonstrates that quantum properties can be physical without being observable. Thus, an underlying similarity in discourse could exist between homeopathy and quantum theory which could be useful for modelling the homeopathic process. This preliminary investigation also suggested that key elements of previous quantum models of the homeopathic process, may become unified within this new QFT-type approach.

PMID: 16868363

[mopinko]

53. considered- gobbledy gook plus math equals

even more gobbledy gobbledy gook.
"In the new model, patient, practitioner and remedy are IMAGINED as fully interacting quantum-like fields"
get it- imagined. for it to be real math, you need it to have PROOF.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

74. Plants imagine they get well when treated with homeopathic

preparations.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WXX-4XT3B9H-7&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1140061957&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6039fd206319622982e330f3fffec9d1
Use of homeopathic preparations in phytopathological models and in field trials: a critical review
Purchase the full-text article



References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

Lucietta Betti1, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author, Grazia Trebbi1, Vera Majewsky2, 3, Claudia Scherr4, Devika Shah-Rossi4, Tim Jäger2, 3 and Stephan Baumgartner2, 4

1Department of Agri-Environmental Sciences and Technologies, University of Bologna, Italy

2Institute of Complementary Medicine KIKOM, University of Bern, Switzerland

3Research Institute of Organic Agriculture FiBL, Frick, Switzerland

4Hiscia Institute, Society for Cancer Research, Arlesheim, Switzerland

Received 1 July 2009;
revised 17 September 2009;
accepted 23 September 2009.
Available online 27 November 2009.

Background

The literature on the applications of homeopathy for controlling plant diseases in both plant pathological models and field trials was first reviewed by Scofield in 1984. No other review on homeopathy in plant pathology has been published since, though much new research has subsequently been carried out using more advanced methods.
Objectives

To conduct an up-to-date review of the existing literature on basic research in homeopathy using phytopathological models and experiments in the field.
Methods

A literature search was carried out on publications from 1969 to 2009, for papers that reported experiments on homeopathy using phytopathological models (in vitro and in planta) and field trials. The selected papers were summarized and analysed on the basis of a Manuscript Information Score (MIS) to identify those that provided sufficient information for proper interpretation (MIS ≥ 5). These were then evaluated using a Study Methods Evaluation Procedure (SMEP).
Results

A total of 44 publications on phytopathological models were identified: 19 papers with statistics, 6 studies with MIS ≥ 5. Publications on field were 9, 6 with MIS ≥ 5. In general, significant and reproducible effects with decimal and centesimal potencies were found, including dilution levels beyond the Avogadro's number.
Conclusions

The prospects for homeopathic treatments in agriculture are promising, but much more experimentation is needed, especially at a field level, and on potentisation techniques, effective potency levels and conditions for reproducibility. Phytopathological models may also develop into useful tools to answer pharmaceutical questions.

Keywords: Homeopathy; Agriculture; Phytopathological models; Plant disease control; Field trials

[NickB79]

76. LOL, that passes for a scientific paper in your world?

No mention of peer review, and it's published in the "journal" Homeopathy.

[Confusious]

78. So they know what the plants think?

I don't need to know what my broccoli thinks while I eat it.

This is Ridiculous! ( Capital "R" there )

[Confusious]

77. You can't expect me to take this seriously

Even regular doctors don't have to go beyond Calc I, and you expect me to believe someone who's got less of an education in math then a regular doctor, about quantum mechanics?

Pushing the bounds here, how about water fairies? I might give that .01 seconds more thought then this.

[truedelphi]

3. If I have a high raging fever or a broken arm I use Western Medicine.

Or if I think it may be cancer or some type of infection.

Antibiotics are a godsend; I would not be alive without them.

Medical procedures are wonderful.

But accupuncture has been effective for helping to re-adjust the female hormones and cycles that the hormone laden food has upset.

And I would be a crippple in bed had I not found a wonderful chiropractor in WI during the seventies. (Some chiropractors are quacks though, just like some doctors.)

[Goldstein1984]

4. Nutrition, exercise, rest, meditation, and...

Western medicine when that doesn't work.

That said, Western Medicine has a problem with cost...

[HuckleB]

9. It does.

But "alternative medicine" isn't much, if any, cheaper.

[Goldstein1984]

11. True

Not since they labeled in "alternative medicine."

The medical clinic my wife uses has an entire alternative medicine section. Our insurance covers it.

[HuckleB]

20. What types of things does it cover?

Just curious.

And that doesn't mean it isn't costing something/a great deal. The insurance is still being billed. Right?

[Goldstein1984]

24. The clinic is for Native Americans, and...

it incorporates herbal remedies and some rituals, along with the more mundane things like homeopathy (from a Native perspective). She doesn't use those services, but they seem to used to compliment rather than substitute for Western Medicine. That's all I know about it.

[HuckleB]

26. Got it. Thanks. Very interesting.

Cheers!

[Orrex]

68. Take your civility elsewhere, you big jerk.

:spank:

[HuckleB]

69. Yes, sir.

And ouch.:hurts:

[Orrex]

70. !

:pals:

[Sanity Claws]

14. Alternative medicine is much less expensive

I take Chinese Herbs for migraines. They cost about $22 a month. If I have an acupuncture session, that's $65. The two together are less than the medicines for migraines, not even including the medical visit.

[HuckleB]

15. Those are not usual prices.

And I'd argue that is probably quite expensive for a migraine placebo.

[Sanity Claws]

21. Tell me about your expertise on prices for Chinese herbs and acupuncture

Is there any basis in fact for your opinion that these are not the usual prices?

As for the herbs, there's no discount. I get them at an herb store in Chinatown. As for acupuncture, that is the going price I've seen in the two cities in which I've lived.

I'm sure you'd argue that they are placebos.

Are you aware that there is no science behind many western prescription medicine usages? In order to get through the FDA, pharmaceuticals must prove efficacy for one purpose. However, once the meds are on the market, the drugs are commonly prescribed for off-label uses for which there is no scientific data to support them. Purely anecdotal or supposition to support the use.

[HuckleB]

23. I've had acupuncture treatments.

The bill for insurance is not $65. And I know plenty of other people who pay a great deal out of pocket to go to acupuncture. The last time I tried prescribed herbs was 12/13 years ago, and they were far more than what you quote. Further, there is a small segment of the acupuncture treatment community that is actively trying to bring the prices down so more people can access it. If the costs were as you claim, there would be no need for such a movement.

[Sanity Claws]

33. These were not insurance prices

I choose to use TCM and pay for it myself.
As for herb prices, there is no need to argue. TCM has formularies, certain mixtures that are commonly used. Here's a link to the price list:

http://www.kamwo.com/shop/home.php?cat=432

They are generally in the $7-9 range for a bottle that lasts 11 days.

You are very out of touch if you think some people don't have a problem paying $65 for an acupuncture session. There is a need for lower cost medical treatment of all kind.

[HuckleB]

35. No, I'm not the one who is out of touch on the costs.

I think you know it, but you're far too stubborn to admit it.

[Sanity Claws]

37. Haha

I show you a link with prices and you still claim I'm wrong. On top of it, you claim I'm too stubborn to admit it.
haha. I've shown proof and all you have shown is an attitude. Haha.

[HuckleB]

39. A link in regard to a few herbs is not something that justifies your claims.

Do you understand why?

WOW!

:rofl:

[Sanity Claws]

5. Horribly untrue

Acupuncture is only part of Traditional Chinese Medicine. Practitioners treat patients with herbs, nutrition, and emotional counseling, in addition to acupuncture. Someone claiming that acupuncturists only know needles is full of shit.

[HuckleB]

8. "Emotional counseling."

And I suppose that they are licensed to do that?

As for herbs, some might help, but how many have little to no validation. As for nutrition, what is the education base for an acupuncturist in terms of giving out nutrition information?

Note: I'm actually giving much benefit of the doubt, as I've been to several acupuncturists, and most do none of the additions that you push. And then, as I noted, there is the education and training piece.

[Sanity Claws]

12. Yes, they are licensed to do that.

TCM practitioners are licensed. If you want to know the educational base, check out the curriculum of the various schools in the US, including Bastyr College, the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine.

In light of your acknowledging that you don't know the educational foundation of Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioners, perhaps you should withdraw your criticisms since they are based on ignorance.

[HuckleB]

16. By whom?

To do counseling? Sorry, but you're only making the quackery all the more obvious.

[Sanity Claws]

27. Haha

Your faith in western medicine is laughable.

If western medicine is so great, why are treatment protocols continually changed? For example, ulcers were treated with antacids for decades. Then some found that ulcers were caused by a bacteria. Doctors scoffed for years. Then antibiotics became the accepted treatment.
Doesn't this prove that western medicine lacks scientific proof for certain accepted treatments?

[HuckleB]

28. In other words, you don't have even a basic understanding of science and evidence base.

Got it.

WOW!

[Sanity Claws]

30. No, sweetheart.

I'm sorry your reading comprehension is so compromised. Does western medicine have a pill for that? One that has undergone a double blind study?

[HuckleB]

32. WOW!

That's funny.

:rofl:

Your post made it very obvious that you don't understand the scientific process, and it also showed why you'd rather believe in something without an evidence base, apparently because it doesn't "change."

:rofl:

[mopinko]

52. that is called science- you may assume something, but when someone

proves otherwise, you change. antacids did and do provide some relief for ulcers. but science kept looking for the underlying cause. it was found. the treatments have changed. virtually every doctor will now test your for helicobacter pylori, and treat you with cipro if it is found.
has there been a similar revolution in treatment by herb doctors? hmmm. i am thinking no.

[Sanity Claws]

54. Doesn't this show that Western med treats symptoms?

This article claims that Western med does not treat symptoms. Western med's long reliance (until about ten years ago) on antacids for ulcers shows that Western med treats symptoms without getting at underlying condition because it often doesn't have any understanding of the underlying condition.

TCM has evolved over centuries. I don't know why you assume that treatment hasn't changed at any time.

My point is that Western medicine is not as supported by hard science as many assume.

[HuckleB]

56. The article claims that Western medicine does not just treat symptoms.

It also points out that the "alternative" meds claim to treat the underlying cause is BS.

Now go back to school, please.

[Sanity Claws]

57. Why the insults?

You seem to have a lot of emotion invested in your position. Odd.

[HuckleB]

58. Pot, meet kettle.

Why are you offering repeated distortions and lies?

Oh, and asking you to get informed, to learn the scientific process, and to learn some basic logic does not equate to an insult when it's clear that you need to do those things.... unless you are simply playing games. And then...

[Sanity Claws]

59. I'm not a liar.

Point out one lie.
I can point out several inaccuracies in your postings.
You cited an article that blatantly distorted things and which resulted in my first post, namely that practitioners of Traditional Chinese Medicine do much more than just stick needles. I have also pointed out examples of where western medicine merely treats symptoms, not the underlying problem.
I provided you a link to chinese herbs and prices. That was one page of herbs. You could go to any of them that is part of the site and see that I am right about prices.

Continuing to insult me, with this message, shows me that you have nothing to support your opinions. In fact, I seem to have hit a nerve. You have done nothing but followed the old thing of ad hominem tricks when you can't respond to the facts. Sad.

[HuckleB]

61. You're joking, right?

I just did this morning. Reread today's posts.

WOW!

The only distorting that has gone on is your distorting of what the article actually stated. And you've repeatedly done so.

That's lying.

[Sanity Claws]

63. I see reasoning doesn't work with you

Again you have nothing to support yourself. I gave specifics, showing that you are wrong in your characterization. You give nothing but generalities, saying the whole thing is a distortion. Sad.

So welcome to my ignore list.

[HuckleB]

64. Reasoning?

When you have you offered reasoning? That's what I've had to ask from you repeatedly, with no response.

:rofl:

[mopinko]

66. the point of antacids was not symptomatic relief. is was aimed at the

assumed cause- excess acidity in the stomachs of ulcer sufferers. that it helped the pain was incidental.
yes, western medicine is actually good at treating "symptoms", like pain. but when ever possible, the underlying cause is what the treatments are aimed at. since inflammation is the proximate cause of many, many illnesses, they are treated with anti-inflammatories. they happen to alleviate the pain, also.
gee, isn't that interesting.
your whole premise is actually a crock. any time the underlying cause is known, that is what is treated. any time the underlying cause is not known, but people are suffering and dying, there is research into those causes.
i have never had any complaint that was treated with symptomatic relief without an investigation into the cause. and i have been in plenty of rodeos.

[HuckleB]

73. Exactly!

I had ulcers treated and "cured" with antacids twice. Plus, one of the ulcers created a "shelf" in my esophagus, which western medicine fixed via a "stretching" process.

[HuckleB]

65. ...

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1331

and...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3122

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

84. How did Eastern Medicine cure ulcers?

[Confusious]

79. You know what I find suprising?

Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years, but there's still DISEASE.

Western medicine has been around for 200 years, and guess what? In the United States, no more smallpox, polio, malaria, rubella, etc, etc, etc.

Maybe if they have a few more thousand years they could catch up?

[Sanity Claws]

6. MDs do treat the symptoms

MDs prescribe drugs for high blood pressure, acne, and similar things. They don't get near the underlying cause of them.

[HuckleB]

7. Just because they also treat symptoms, does not mean that they don't treat the underlying causes.

Try again. And remember this piece also addresses getting to the ACTUAL underlying cause. If you want to address mere imagination as treatment, well, then that belongs on the fiction board.

[Sanity Claws]

10. Why do you accept that Western medicine does both

but not accept that alternative medicine also does both?

That is what I'm getting at.

But I forgot. You know everything already.

[HuckleB]

17. Two words: Evidence base.

[Sanity Claws]

22. You can use the same for words for western meds

A lot of drugs are prescribed for offlabel uses. No evidence base behind those uses.

Also, no double blind studies for surgeries.

[HuckleB]

25. First, off-label does not mean no evidence base.

Second, if you are going to try to dismiss "western meds" with that sideswipe, then you have shot any argument you can offer for "aternative medicine."

As for your surgery comment, please try to offer some form of intellectual honesty.

[Sanity Claws]

29. Haha

I'm getting at the very root of your argument and it hurts you. Your knee jerk reaction is that western medicine has "science" behind it.
Off label use of drugs is proof that it doesn't.
Yes, off label MAY have acquired scientific proof but it is not required. The current off label uses of Neurontin are coming under severe criticism for lack of evidence.

So your claim that western medicine is firmly entrenched in science is hokum.

[HuckleB]

31. So you think a single anecdote means the entire care system must be thrown out?

Or that it can be equated to systems with no evidence base at all?

Take some basic science and some basic logic and get back to me.

[Sanity Claws]

34. Don't you see your own hypocrisy?

It's rather funny.

[HuckleB]

36. I'm not showing any.

Of course, your inability to understand what you're trying to post might fool you into thinking that, but, seriously, take some logic.

[Sanity Claws]

38. Actually I score very high in logic

You are so stuck in a position that you can't see anything else. It's actually kind of sad.

[HuckleB]

40. Now THAT is funny.

:rofl:

By the way I'm done for today, at least. You're juvenile, and very ignorant, BS is not worth any more of my time, at least for now.

[Sanity Claws]

60. Ad hominem attacks say more about the attacker than the attacked

I seem to have hit a nerve with you.

It seems that your whole worldview will fall apart when you are faced with the fact that western medicine is less based on hard science than assumed.

[HuckleB]

62. So what do all the ad hominem attacks that you've offered say about you?

[Dorian Gray]

49. That is a good point

as I am currently on two of those drugs for fertility related issues. (Metformin and Lovenox. Both are off-label.)

[HuckleB]

55. It's a red herring.

[Dorian Gray]

71. Why?

[HuckleB]

72. It's a sideswipe at one part of a whole system, and even that part offers more evidence base ...

... than "alternative" health care. It doesn't come close to addressing anything about the whole of the system, yet the poster wants to dismiss an entire system based on that.

That's a red herring. It's BS.

[Dorian Gray]

75. Well, you are right that it shouldn't dismiss the entire system

I don't think that it should at all. It is an interesting point that many drugs are prescribed off label with mixed results. I'm quite happy with the research on the two that I'm taking off label right now, but I've place an immense amount of trust in my doctors.

[Orrex]

67. Because western (that is, *actual*) medicine often does do both

While "alternative" "medicine" often does neither.


Except according to unverifiable, selectively chosen, and anecdotal personal testimony, for whatever that's worth.

[alterfurz]

13. "There is a big difference between a good doctor and a bad doctor...

...but often not much difference between a good doctor and no doctor at all." -- Ben Franklin(?)
(sorry, can't remember who said it!)

[HuckleB]

18. Quotes are fun... but often lack context.

Interestingly, if one thinks about it, if Ben Franklin was the author, he was writing about doctors in the 17th century, which is basically where most of today's "alternative" medicine still exists.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

48. LOL

:thumbsup:

[HuckleB]

19. Greetings to the anti-science, unrec crowd!

:hi:

[Extend a Hand]

41. My 79 yr old mom's internist sent her for accupuncture

for urinary incontinence. It really seemed to help her.

[HuckleB]

42. I'm glad it seemed to help.

:hi:

[Dorian Gray]

50. My doctor also

suggested accupuncture for fertility aid. She said that there had been many promising studies that have shown a correlation between treatment and successful implantation. I enjoy the session a lot. (I've been doing it every other week for the past six months.)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

44. Orthomolecular medicine.

www.orthomed.org

[HuckleB]

47. ...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=556

[Chemisse]

80. Doctors treat symptoms all the time

My daughter is being offered strong and addictive medicine for her anxiety, which blossomed into a big problem when she had Graves Disease. Her TSH levels are within normal now but she is still having a hard time with heart pounding and anxiety. Clearly there is a physiological problem, but nobody cares to investigate.

This is just one example. There are many, many others. Some people require a 'drug holiday' to clear their systems, when doctors prescribe a drug, then give another drug to treat the side effects of the first one - and so on.

By the way, this doesn't mean I endorse quacks in the slightest. This just means I wish doctors would stop using formulaic practices, think for themselves a bit, and put just a bit more energy into their work.

I guess I want Dr. House (minus the "Drill a hole in his brain!" extremes).

[HuckleB]

81. Say what?

Do you not understand brain plasticity? Do you not understand that the brain is part of the body?

Your second paragraph is contradictory, by the way.

[HuckleB]

82. Self delete/Repeat Post.

[HuckleB]

83. Self delete/Repeat Post.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

85. So a psychological problem is out of the question?

[HuckleB]

86. Apparently the brain isn't a part of the body.

Who knew?

No you know.