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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 12:04 PM
Original message
German cardinal lashes out at 'secular Europe'
ROME - German-born Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a close advisor of Pope John Paul II, has issued a strong attack against "secular Europe", which he accuses of "decadence", "intolerance" towards Christians and ostracism towards God.

In an interview published on Friday by the Italian daily La Repubblica, the cardinal speaks of a Europe that is living through a major transformation - from one based on Christian culture to an aggressive and at times intolerant (form of) secularism".

"Secularism is no longer neutral," the cardinal said, it is beginning to transform itself into an ideology that imposes itself through politics and does not leave any room to the Christian and Catholic vision."

Cardinal Ratzinger, who is considered one of the most conservative voices in the Roman Curia, heads the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a Church body formerly known as the Inquisition.

Being Catholic myself, I have to wonder about his "Catholic Vision". It is nothing I want to see anybody lobby for in my name.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. What is with the Christians feeling they are being picked on?
It is the same over here.
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SnowGoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's worth noting that post WWI Germans felt the same way...
and this was a significant part of the atmosphere that allowed Hitler to happen. Nothing new, the bully always claims to have been wronged - it justifies the bullying.

I was brought up in a christian church, and the notion that they were/are/will be persecuted was deeply ingrained. It helps keep the group together, by making it seem like 'us against the world'.

Not healthy, but I never figured it out while I was in there.
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Tuco Ramirez Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I think the Cardinal has the presence of mind
to see that the murder of Theo van Gogh could only happen as a secular society is dying, to be replaced by a much more deeply religious (if not outright fanatical) society.

The champions of the secularization trend (even in the US) don't seem to realize that the resulting "birth dearth" is bringing even more conservative immigration in its wake. While the 9/11 murderers were the exception rather than the rule, I think issues like gay marriage had a better chance ten years ago, while legalized abortion is now in danger of being outlawed, due to this trend.
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gWbush is Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. hey cardinal - go fuck yourself!
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 04:39 PM
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4. Lackoff's view
This is from George Lakoff's "Moral Politics - How Liberals and Conservatives Think" in a section labelled "Moral Boundaries"

(*Note: "Strict Father morality" is what Lakoff calls the conservatives "model" of reality, as opposed to the liberal's "Nuturing Family" moral model)

"Strict Father morality, with it's strict division between good and evil and its need for the setting of strict standards of behavior, naturally gives priority to the metaphor of Moral Boundaries.

It is common to conceptualize action as a form of self-propelled motion and purposes as destinations that we are trying to reach. Moral action is seen as bounded movement, movement in permissable areas and along permissable paths. Given this, immoral action is seen as motion outside of the permissible range, as straying from a prescribed path or transgressing prescribed boundaries. To characterize morally permissable actions is to lay out paths and areas where one can move freely. To characterize immoral action is to limit one's range od movement. In this metaphor, immoral behavior is "deviant" behavior, a form of metaphorical motion into unsanctioned areas, along unsanctioned paths, and towards unsanctioned destinations.

Because human purposes are conceptualized in terms of destinations, this metaphor has considerable consequences. Since action is self-propelled motion in this metaphor, and such motion is always under the control of whoever is moving, it follows that any destination is a freely chosen destination and that the destinations chosen by others have been rejected. Someone who moves off of sanctioned paths or out of sanvtioned territory is doing more than merely acting immorally. He is rejecting the purposes, the goals, the very mode of life of the society he is in. In doing so, he is calling into question the purposes that govern most people's everyday lives. Such "deviation" from social norms goes beyond mere immorality. Actions characterized as "deviant" threaten the very identity of normal people, calling their most common and therefore most sacred values into question.

But "deviant" actions are even more threatening than that. Part of the logic of this metaphor has to do with the effect of deviant behavior on other people. Metaphorically, someone who deviates from a tried and true path is creating a new path that others will feel safe to travel on. Hence, those who transgress boundaries or deviate from a prescribed path may "lead others astray" by going off in a new direction and creating a new path.

The Moral Boundaries metaphor thus interacts powerfully with one of the most important metaphors in our conceptual system: Life Is A Journey. Choosing a particular path, a "direction" in your life, can affect the whole rest of your life. Imagine a parent who says, "Our son left the church. I can't understand why he turned his back on our way of life like a that." The paths you choose can be llife paths, and if morality iss seen as going along a particular path, then deviating from that path can be seen as entering an immoral wau of life. It is for this reason that the very idea of "deviance" is so powerful. In creating new paths, the deviant can make those paths appear safe to others and thus lead them to chnge thier lives...

...People who deviate from the tried and true path arouse enourmous anger because they are seen as threats to the community. For the protection of the community, they need to be isolated and made outcasts"

The very existence of secularists (not to mention homosexuals) provides an example of deviance that might tempt those who keep within the boundaries the Church sets. Therefore, the very existence of secularism threatens (ie "Secularism is no longer neutral") their moral order and authority (Ie. " it (secularism) is beginning to transform itself into an ideology that imposes itself through politics and does not leave any room to the Christian and Catholic vision")
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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The above is a rather wooly way of saying . . .
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 12:09 AM by MrModerate
"If you don't believe what I believe, I feel threatened."

But wooliness is inextricably interwoven with academia (I'm presuming the academy is Mr. Lakoff's hangout), or why would they wear all those cable-knit sweaters with the leather elbow patches?

With regard to the good cardinal, I lean toward the put a sock in it school. Europe is trending secular because 1) religious diversity proves that many different paths can be successfully applied to the business of living a life, and 2) not all those paths have to be associated with the invisible cloud being which forms the core of conventional christianity.

Of course he feels picked on -- the people around him are telling him his core beliefs are irrelevant and his moral authority bankrupt!

Life's a bitch, and then you die -- and there's nothing on the other side.
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merbex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. Frankly, I hope Europe continues to ignore the Cardinal's agenda
while at the same time be on the lookout for the rise of fudamentalism in Europe as it has taken root here.

Fundamentalism is dangerous no matter where or how it is practised and it should be continually pointed out to people that what we are seeing in the US is not evangelicalism but the RISE OF FUNDAMENTALISM
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