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If God is God... is there anything that God can't do?

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:08 PM
Original message
If God is God... is there anything that God can't do?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. No,
which is a paradox for many.
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. God can't take away free will
It makes God less than God.
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Kire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. yes, he can
he just never will
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Are you sure?
Maybe God takes away free will for some or maybe no one has free will.
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whalerider55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. yes
i quote Randy Newman, in the song "Burn On", about the Cuyahoga River, which in the 60's was so polluted it caught fire and burned down buildings and apparently bridges....

"the Lord can make you tumble,
the Lord can make you turn,
the Lord can make you overflow,
but the Lord can't make you burn..."

whalerider55
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. God cannot ....
Convince me he exists ....
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. God can go to hell for all I care
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Those who create hells should definitely have to go there...
...just as * should have to go to Iraq.
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Can God make a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it?
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Coyul Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Bible clearly states.......
....Everything is God, nothing can exist without God...God created everything....
I believe it actually quotes as,
"Without God nothing can exist, and nothing can exist without God."



Which leads us to the question:

who created?:
Terrorism
Death
hatred
fear
Bigotry
Poverty
Dispair
etc.
etc.
etc.

The answer, as always remains clear:

God!

The God created by the fundies is real, but only to them, and unfortunately those set to judge.....watch "their" God reap vengence on the world. And prepare for armegeddon!

D

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Goathead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. Can God destroy Himself?
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
Frank Lloyd Wright
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Hard to argue with Frank Lloyd Wright.
I'm not about to.

Nicely put.
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rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. zero-point energy
Some contemporary writers/thinkers suggest the concept of "God" and zero-point energy may be interconnected intimately. Perhaps someday our science will be able to tap into this zero-point energy (if it is real). Maybe the universe is like a foam on top of the ocean of aero-point energy. A viewpoint from cosmology
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes
Which is why Lucifer in the bible wanted to draw adam/eve into sin. God does not lie. He said he is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He punished Lucifer for his rebellion and lucifer knew the punishment was eternal. He believed that if mankind sinned and rebeled against god they too would all perish.

God had not other choice, if he was to remain the same and be consistent. But he found an out - someone had to be punished, so he let someone without sin take it which was basically a legal way around his own laws.

Just my take.
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Coyul Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Just a side comment on that....
....Jesus, the presumed son of God, said. "Those who are not with us, are against us!" Then later in the text said, "Those who are not against us, are for us!"

Sorry, the un-erring word of God, or his chosen voice, contradict your statement. And leave many of us bemused!

D

Prepare for the draft folks, it will take many legions to fight armegeddon! And for what?
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Historical textual nuances
Exist in many works, including translations of the bible. Such things do not detract from the general source and idea behind the documents.

When I was an agnostic (later atheist, then tibetan buddhist, et al) I tried to look at the book in a whole new light - not to condemn it and find a way to ridicule it, but to analyze it a light devoid of a general bias. For centuries many intelligent people have held it in high esteem, and for a reason. Disliking the people who practice a faith, or the results of some who have, does not detract from the work itself anymore that a bad rendition of shakespeare makes his writings bad.

Much like many have attempted to look at the middle east and tried to understand their views on us and others I tried to look at the bible and understand why some things were the way they were.

If you only look to prove a view you already hold, what have you learned or gained? I think this goes well with politics. In the attempt to find all we can to validate hatred of * we sometimes overlook things - and on DU I think we often spend more time on those feelings than on what is really going on and how we can work on it and be aware. Example, over the past few days I have posted many threads of bills and such in the house and senate, things we should keep an eye on (and some now coming to light in the MSM) but have barely gotten one comment. Post a thread about hating * and such and the comments rack up.

We have a chance daily to review the records of what is going on in our government, comment on them, energize the base to get involved and write letters supporting or not supporting our elected reps, but instead people spend time dissing kerry for conceeding (myself included at times) so fast, the latest episode of the simpsons, etc and so on.

IE - we spend a lot of time validating our feelings and less time working on real issues which face us daily in the halls of congress (and locally). * is in, things are moving on, and while we can (and should) discuss and work on the election results we should also not let the new laws being voted on (and discussed) slide by without input (unless it is a hyped up version from the MSM which seems to get more comments - which to me belies a reliance on those sources more than our own ability to read and analyze the legislation that sits in the open that we all can read and examine ourselves).

Which all goes back, to me on a personal level, to the scriptures and faith in general. I did not set out to prove myself right, I set out to educate myself and see if maybe I was wrong or biased and letting my emotions dictate what I read and held onto. Which I was. Instead of progressing and learning something new with an open and fresh mind I was, originally, only trying to validate my feelings. Over time I came to look at things from the view of others, and look for ways - as hard as I could - to prove myself wrong. I cannot say others will have the same results - I don't push my beliefs on others (whether they have a religion label or one called democrat) but I will discuss them.

Neither you nor I will convince the other that they are right and the other wrong, that is something I feel we can only do ourselves by honestly seeking the truth, and not to make ourselves feel better about the beliefs we hold by ridiculing the beliefs we don't hold.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Seems that "Historical, textual nuances" ....
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 09:21 PM by Trajan
Havn't a place in the unerring expression of the will of a perfect god ....

IF: God is perfect, and all god does is done with perfection: then even his expression cannot stray from perfection ...

'Perfect' cannot be nuanced ...
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Perfect for god, not for man who types up and interprets things
Much like our own constitution and the 2nd amendment for example. Different people will see it their own way. Much is made about intent. And in a few thousand years some may even doubt the exact wording.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. IF ....
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 09:51 PM by Trajan
a perfect god ....

1) creates a race of beings ...
2) intends to promote his view by communicating his desires through his own creatures.
3) he purposely uses whatever facilities a god possesses to forge a compact with his own creatures .... we presume that the tools of god are perfect tools ...
4) creates such a compact that is the the product of his perfect intent to communicate his will to his creatures .... using those tools which he, in his perfection, has chosen ...

THEN: SUCH a god cannot be have his will impeded .... especially by the weak, degenerate creatures who never do anything right ....

Funny thing about this issue:

IF god exists, and he gave human beings 'self will', then one could understand how GOD's 'will' could be twisted and denied by man's imperfect view ....

Yet: if god does NOT exist: one can still expect to find self willed human beings creating imperfect mythologies of perfect gods ....

One can 'disguise' the unreality of god, by using man's naturally and autonomously imbued 'self will' as a device to portray the uncertainty of the world as the fault of mankind, and NOT the 'perfect deity' ...

You say the 'perfect mind' of god cannot be expressed because of man's weakness, yet twas god who made the message AND the messenger ..... Man's imperfection cannot be their own fault ....... if the story be true ....

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. If god did make the messenger (and why Iraq might be a grand thing)
And the messenger rebelled, ala lucifer, then the messenger is no longer perfect. And we know such would be the case because if the messenger was perfect such messenger would have not made so many mistakes in their own lives and written them down.

So both were one way, one fell away from that way, then attempted to record to the best of their ability what they did know about the one who created them. Such people are apt to make some mistakes, and taking them too literal would be akin to taking them as perfect, which they are not. Therefore they make some mistakes in recording while in general they are able to convey the basics.

this would be the case whether they be indians believing in wonka tonka (some did) and woodland spirits, tibetan buddhists, aztecs, etc and et al. The idea was we were not gods and therefore could not do things as well as they could. This in turn actually helped free will as people were able to discern that such revelations were subject to a deeper analysis because they were made by mankind (and all could be wrong as well). So mankind now has the leisure to analyze each within a light of openess to find the truth and not have the truth thrust upon them.

We reject some out of hand, others seem to make more sense. Which one is real, if any, is yet to be proven - and won't be during the reign on the earth of imperfect creations.

The same questions are pondered on a scientific level - where did the universe come from, if the big bang then where did the things which make up the big bang come from, is the universe eternal, expanding, collapsing, etc? We have many theories, but not definitive answer (though, like in religion we get people who claim they know only to have their 'facts' overturned years later by better science). the quest continues on all fronts.

While I may think some are wrong, I don't want to ridicule those I disagree with - I want to learn from them and expand my mind, not narrow it to fit what I believe - for in doing so we become like those we seek to ridicule for closing our minds, and we also become like them in that we ridicule those who view the world in a different light. Christians, Indians, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, may all be wrong, but science is often wrong as well - the difference of course is that science progresses in it's view as new information is learned; yet we still find some who will seize the theory of the day and swear it is right and not look further.

If science keeps progressing it may well find there is a programmer, and then seek to understand the program the programmer. Religion already holds that belief and seeks to understand it. The core idea there is that a creature, different then us, had a hand in the whole mess with a generalized blueprint - sort of like a program with an underlying logic that inserts random variables (we being part of the random variable).

There are common threads between the two - belief that there is something behind things leads people to understand that something, and often how that something works. Many works in the 1800's in both religion and science are similar in their thirst to understand the hows whereas religion added the whys.

One is a search for meaning, one is a search for how. They are not necessarily at odds (and only have been more in the last century than others). If science disregards the whys there is only cold reason left, and that can lead to a total lack of morals and a might makes right mentality which someone like * would use - morals, and the ideas of right and wrong are not really scientific, so why have them? If I can kill you and take all you have and lose nothing (like going to jail) then why shouldn't I? I would be the surperior of this evolution basically because I was able to conqueor that which was weaker. But we, as humans, have morals and values - why?

What purpose do they have? If we are nothing more than a collection of molecules than why isn't the Iraq war a grand thing? Who cares who suffers for the needs of us, we are the most important thing. Let the kids there die, let the people suffer, for we ourselves gain oil and more and it benefits the larger group of americans. Why should we care at all about others, because caring has a basis in morality which cannot be pinned down because the only authority for it is might. * wins, and we should congratulate him, because he worked harder then we did and used his power to gain - and on the evolutionary scale he is more advanced because he is in power and we are not.

But we don't 'feel' it is right - too bad, because with no god all we have are our feelings and power, and there is no reason people should give an inch to those below them. Who will punish them? No one. * will do as he pleases, and should, because there is no higher moral authority than a nuclear weapon and an army to back it up.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. A few things
Define perfect? Just because we humans, in some sections, see god as being 'perfect' does not mean a lot. That whole term is subject to analysis within the framework of our current understandings and ideals.

You believe, and evanlgelize your ideals, something. You have a view which you want others to hold and so go about sharing it and arguing it in attempts to convert others to the same view - or at least to get them to question their views which may help them in losing their views (while keeping yours).

We, as humans, all have morals and values. Sometimes we group ourselves into 'clans' based on such (like democrat, republican, christian, humanist, et al) and attempt to add to that clan by getting others to agree to our view.

Some things we can all agree on at a base level, like mathematics and sometimes science (I say sometimes because science is also given to speculation on what could be based on what is known at the time).

Seeking to ridicule and reduce the beliefs of others (which we all do really at times, myself obviously included) can detract from our own beliefs because we fail to clearly define them and why we hold them (and often we fail to look at the other side and see why others don't agree because we fear our own beliefs are being attacked). Freepers are opposite many here on many things - but why? Are they right on some things, and what does 'right' on something mean??

Right and wrong are totally relative outside a controlling power. And as noted previously the right-wing is in control and can make right and wrong, since there is no god or higher power than the highest power in relation to us humans is the person who holds the most power.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. The idea of God doing, is a God I couldn't envision.
God does not "do". God simply IS.

I understand why so many are dismissal of the sort of God as Puppetmaster, or God as Santa Claus...but a serious approach to the ineffable and timeless mystery that God represents, is another story entirely.

Science investigates the bits of God. Religion tries to relink to the source, in a search for God. Both are honest pursuits of the same goal, via different motives: Intellectual and spiritual.
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. God as Santa Claus seems pretty reasonable.
God has his merry elves (angels) process all the prayers sent up there each day. Then God flies down to earth in his beautiful mother of pearl and diamond sleigh and distributes all the answers to the prayers to all the nice christians who deserve it.

Of course the naughty christians and heathen unwashed only get switches and coal. The fact that these comprise the vast majority of humanity may be worrisome to some but of course a loving and omnipotent god doesn't really have much choice in the matter, does he?
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's obvious....
He can ignore *bush and companies crimes against humanity.
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checks-n-balances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. God only knows...
and I wouldn't know how else to answer that question!
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yeah!
"If God is God... is there anything that God can't do?"

This god can't seem to do his own dirty work. Witness our own government and the Middle East.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Think God should be able to create what he created in 7 days in 1 second
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The Jacobin Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
25. It depends on what the definition of the word "can't" is
If "can't" means unable to because God does not have the ability -- I would say no.

But, if "can't" means is perfectly committed to a set of principles that God would never violate -- then I would say yes.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
29. "Break wind at both ends simultaneously"
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 03:47 PM by Dead_Parrot
According to Michael Caine, and who's going to argue with him?

http://www.us.imdb.com/title/tt0073341/quotes
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-25-04 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. god can do anything but
he doesn't micromanage.He's or her,definitely a big picture person.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
31. this is called the Problem of Evil
god is all knowing
god is all powerful
god is all good

pick 2
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