As one of the people whose names would be nailed to the cross...

[Pacifist Patriot]

I confess I am unfamiliar with "See You At The Pole." I realize this was before school hours but it still does not sit well with me.

http://www.edmondsun.com/articles/2005/09/22/front/front.txt

United by their love for Christ and their concern for a spiritually broken world, students Wednesday met at local schools for the annual "See You at the Pole" event.

Nearly 150 students gathered early in the morning at the Edmond North High School yard where they prayed for their school, for their community, for President Bush and for the victims of Hurricane Katrina. They also prayed for non-Christian students in their school and wrote their names down on paper.

<snip>

Matthew Cates, an North senior, said some Christians are afraid to share their faith at school. The event gives them a chance to see other Christians.

<snip>

I'm going to take a wild stab at it and guess this young man has no problems whatsoever seeing other Christians. Good heavens, no one taught him about demographics?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. I had no problem with the praying at the pole issue

and was prepared to say that to stop kids from gathering and praying before school is thought control....

BUT THEN

I read about the names of non-Christians being nailed to the cross. WHOA! It just crossed way out of my comfort zone.

Because my faith is my business. Maybe I just haven't TOLD you what I believe! And if I am Hindu? Muslim? Jewish? Geez. Not good.

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. Yes, that was my problem.

I don't mind faith-based programs on school property provided it is after hours and all faiths have equal opportunity for access. I don't know why that part jumped out at me as icky.

[Stand and Fight]

2. In Oklahoma...

Jesus, I have got to get out of this insane fucking state!

[whatever4]

3. Think this is the 4th year at my sons elementary

They called it the "Prayer around the Pole", also held in the morning before school. Unbelievable. The kids that didn't participate waited on the bus. I shake my head. That's what these people want? That's what they can have.

They even gave the kids flyers to take home about it, printed on colored paper. I kept the damn thing too.

They make a mockery of separating church and state, and in their narrow little minds, it's a victory, and I'm just so sick and dammned tired of it. Hard to feel sorry for these fools and the hell on earth they'll be living, knowing most of them have NO idea what the future is likely to bring, watching them ignore everything but that which they want to hear.

When we're all a group of starving homeless freezing peoples, then I'm sure we'll be on the same page more often.

[Pacifist Patriot]

5. Made them stay on the bus?

Now that I have a problem with. I assumed it would be before school hours to the point where children participating would be brought by their parents and the other children would be arriving later. The idea of the children being prayed for sitting on buses watching this is just appalling to me.

[whatever4]

10. yup, and sitting on the buses waiting was NOT in the flyer

I was pretty amazed at that too, I figured it would be held before the kids arrived on the buses. But instead, it turned out the meeting, complete with local buggy-eyed preacher, was timed so the kids could get to school, and those that didn't want to attend the prayer waited on the bus. Found that out later, when speaking to my son.

And it seems like no one around here but me has a problem with it. I imagine that's how they want everyone to feel.

So sad, and truthfully, I'm just so sick of it. Being the only one, as if being a Unitarian is "wrong" because it doesn't necessarily mean Christian. You know? They don't get how that COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY invalidates any ideas of separating church and state? Because most people have "faith" we then promote Christian services? Sure. They said it was nondenominational. Sure.

No, they get it. They just don't care. Public elementary school, and these same teachers and principles teaching our children don't care about skirting the letter and ignoring EVERY intent of the law. And my kids wonder why I hate even setting foot in the buildings. Anymore, they're lucky I let them go to public school at all, and if the insanity gets too much worse, I'm pulling them out whether they want me to or not. They can't understand how insane all this is, but I can.

[OneBlueSky]

6. how DARE they??? . . .

"They also prayed for non-Christian students in their school and wrote their names down on paper. In a solemn, symbolic offering, they nailed the pieces of paper to a wooden cross, set up beside the flag pole."

these people are NOT Christians, because they have absolutely NO understanding of Jesus' message . . . how DARE they put "non-Christian"s name on a cross? . . . this is one of the most blatant displays of Christianoid cult-like behavior I've ever run across, and that's exactly what these people are -- a cult . . . every bit as dangerous as the Jim Jones Kool Aid "ministry" . . .

I've seen Christianoids do all kinds of things while pretending to be Christians, but this one really takes the cake . . . if I were the parent of a student whose name was placed on the cross, I'd sue the living shit out of the school district, the Board of Education, and the principal for allowing this disgusting travesty to take place on school property . . .

[Pacifist Patriot]

7. The arrogance is stunning.

How would they feel if the name of every Christian student was nailed to a Star of David, Crescent, Chalice, Yin Yang...whatever and someone prayed for them to be released from their cultish adherence to Christianity? The uproar would be defeaning.

[MostlyLurks]

9. Nail Christian names to a science book. n/t

[bee]

8. I totally agree.

The fact that they set up a cross on school property is bad enough... but NAILING non-christians names to it?! :grr:

WAYYYYYYYYY over the line. :nuke:

And what they dont seem to understand is that the more these freaks push the envelope like this... the more they contribute to the anti-christian sentiment. Even among christians. Not too smart on thier part, IMO.

[whatever4]

11. wow

"They also prayed for non-Christian students in their school and wrote their names down on paper. In a solemn, symbolic offering, they nailed the pieces of paper to a wooden cross, set up beside the flag pole."

In my enthusiasm to add comments, I missed that part. I don't think our kids did that. Hope they didn't. Wow. Pinned their names to a cross?

Jesus, if that isn't terrorism, I don't know what is. Terrifies me, that's for sure.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

12. I can't get the link to work,

but from the post alone it looks to me as though the the names being written down are probably those of the Christian students doing the writing, not the non-Christian ones being prayed for. Does/did the link refute this? If not, I think what they've been doing is perfectly reasonable. If so, then it's definately somewhat sinister, but still should certainly be permitted.

[MountainLaurel]

13. The names

Were indeed those of the non-Christians, which were then nailed to a cross.

Edmond North High School in Edmond, OK: Nearly 150 Christian students gathered in the school yard during the 2005 SYATP event. They wrote the names of non-Christian students on pieces of paper. Darrell Haley, a youth pastor at the local E-Church brought a portable wooden cross which was set up next to the school flagpole in an apparent violation of the principle of separation of church and state. The papers were then nailed to the cross. Darrell's daughter Rachel wrote, "God truly moved in such a mighty way. I just felt the presence of God and the Holy Spirit at our school today." Olga Cossey, an adult youth leader at Witcher Baptist Church, said that seeing the students.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_syatp.htm

Here's a photo of the cross, with the names attached: http://www.youthworkers.net/PDF/syatp2005_1.pdf

Sorry, but I think this is wrong, and is pretty damn close to hate speech: Nailing someone's name to a cross seems to me to be an implicit threat. (And, considering that non-Christians in schools that allow this sort of activity are often physically and emotionally harmed, the threat is probably not so implicit.) If someone nailed the names of Jews to an Islamic crescent moon, would you think it's OK?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. Ah. I see.

Yes,that is definately sinister. In answer to your question, I don't think this is *ok*, and I wouldn't think that nailing Jewish names to a crescent moon was *ok*, but that doesn't mean it should be banned.

The two grounds on which one could make a case for forbidding something like this are that it's an implicit threat of violence or that it's a violation of the separation of church and state. Simply the fact that it's a bad thing, or that it will upset or offend people, isn't, and can't be, enough in itself.

If it was a group with any history of violence or intimidation doing it, I'd say that the use of nails meant that it was probably an implicit threat of violence, and thus illegal, but the fact that it's a youth group means that I think it shouldn't be banned on that grounds.

I'm not clear to what extent the school was involved in it. If they were simply letting them use the premises then I think separation of Church and State would not be being broken, but if the school were making this in some way official then it would be, I suspect. From what I've read it sounds as though it wasn't - simply letting them do it next to the flagpole doesn't in itself cut the mustard - and so should be allowed, but there's not enough detail to be sure.