Like a Disease:Creationists Seek Foothold in Europe

[n2doc]

(02-09) 09:15 PST LONDON, United Kingdom (AP) --

After the Sunday service in Westminster Chapel, where worshippers were exhorted to wage "the culture war" in the World War II spirit of Sir Winston Churchill, cabbie James McLean delivered his verdict on Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.
"Evolution is a lie, and it's being taught in schools as fact, and it's leading our kids in the wrong direction," said McLean, chatting outside the chapel. "But now people like Ken Ham are tearing evolution to pieces."

Ken Ham is the founder of Answers in Genesis, a Kentucky-based organization that is part of an ambitious effort to bring creationist theory to Britain and the rest of Europe. McLean is one of a growing number of evangelicals embracing that message — that the true history of the Earth is told in the Bible, not Darwin's "The Origin of Species."

Europeans have long viewed the conflict between evolutionists and creationists as primarily an American phenomenon, but it has recently jumped the Atlantic Ocean with skirmishes in Italy, Germany, Poland and, notably, Britain, where Darwin was born and where he published his 1859 classic.
Darwin's defenders are fighting back. In October, the 47-nation Council of Europe, a human rights watchdog, condemned all attempts to bring creationism into Europe's schools. Bible-based theories and "religious dogma" threaten to undercut sound educational practices, it charged.

Schools are increasingly a focal point in this battle for hearts and minds. A British branch of Answers in Genesis, which shares a Web site with its American counterpart, has managed to introduce its creationist point of view into science classes at a number of state-supported schools in Britain, said Monty White, the group's chief executive.

"We do go into the schools about 10 to 20 times a year and we do get the students to question what they're being taught about evolution," said White, who founded the British branch seven years ago. "And we leave them a box of books for the library."

more:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/02/09/international/i091550S02.DTL&tsp=1

[Kermitt Gribble]

1. These people need to be stopped.

Somehow, though, I don't think Europeans will fall for their bs, nor tolerate it as much as Americans.

[BadgerKid]

2. Shouldn't science and religion agree to disagree?

I don't understand religion as humans portray it, but as a scientist I can imagine that the details underlying how Nature works is God. :think:

[n2doc]

3. Of course, but that isn't their point.

They will not accept anyone not being indoctrinated in their beliefs. Since their beliefs conflict with Science, they will not tolerate Science being taught, and will fight to have their belief system substituted instead.

[BadgerKid]

5. Yeah that whole Renaissance thing

really sticks in their craw.

I can imagine how a religious code might be useful for helping to ensure the survival of a civilization, when life is tentative because resources are scarce.

To be fair, science has its own indoctrination. In the teaching of science, it is the series of discoveries leading to the present that is largely forgotten; in essence, science is largely taught as "fact". I'm seeing these religious fanatics wanting to do the same thing, to teach a religious belief as "fact". Maybe if the focus was more like a "history of science" or "history of religion" we could get more insights into each other.

[silverweb]

4. That's how sane people think.

These rabid creationist nuts, though, want to deny all objective scientific evidence in favor of extreme biblical literalism, i.e., the earth being 6000 years old, ancient geology being recent effects of "Noah's flood," etc.

There's no middle ground or agreement with such insanity.

I see science as offering ongoing acquisition of evidence-based knowledge regarding the what, where, when, and how of the universe... while religion offers faith-based answers to the who and why.

Reconciling science and religion in that way is easy. Fundies don't view things the same way and we just cannot get along in that regard.

[BadgerKid]

6. Maybe that could do.

There's something kind of interesting about science, and that is when you deal with information, you are really dealing with statistics. After a while you begin to think that the "who" and "why" of religion, is statistics.

*runs away screaming* :)

[silverweb]

7. lol...

Fundies always make me want to run away screaming. :D

[Warpy]

8. Yeah, but you have to realize they believe god dictated the bible

word for word and that it can't possibly be wrong and if you count back the number of "begats," the earth can't possibly be more than 6000 years old if humanity was created on the sixth day, even though instead of resting on the seventh, it seems god preoccupied himself with a couple of pet humans in the Garden of Eden.

Personally, I'd like to see the belief of biblical inerrancy introduced into the next DSM as a mental pathology, but that's just me.

The truth is that these people will never accept science and they don't want to be reminded that the rest of us are allowed to disagree with them. Disagreeing with them means we're thumbing our noses at their god, and they can't stand that.

Their god is a very weak one who demands the utmost suspension of reason plus the utmost in flattery and they want to make sure he gets both.

[kestrel91316]

13. I REALLY like the way you think, Warpy!

"........Personally, I'd like to see the belief of biblical inerrancy introduced into the next DSM as a mental pathology........"

[hunter]

16. It's a pathology of some kind, but I think it is often the result of abuse.

Happy curious kids grow up questioning this fundamentalist madness.

Crushing the curiousity out of a kid isn't easy -- it takes years of indoctrination.

[FiveGoodMen]

18. "it takes years of indoctrination" -- week after week after week after week

That's what churches are: indoctrination centers.

That's what they ought to be called.

[hunter]

21. I think my kids attend Mass as a sort of indoctrination resistance program...

... I see them stewing in the pews sometimes, and I can guess what's going through their heads.

My mom's own religious explorations certainly made me critical of organized religion in general. I'm not afraid to speak my mind about religion. The worst they can do is throw you out of church, and as a kid I witnessed that when my mom got thrown out of church. It was the Jehovah's Witnesses, so it wasn't too horrible. As a rotten little kid who hated going to church, so I was secretly sort of happy about it.

It's a similar situation to my citizenship. I was born in the U.S.A., but I'm no flag waving "love it or leave it" patriot. We are citizens of a deeply flawed and corrupt empire that wreaks havoc throughout the world. But here I am. In a similar way the Catholic Church is an integral part of my community and my family life. Whenever my nation or my Church push me around, I push back. If enough people did that maybe things would change for the better.

On a good day I'm a force for positive change, on a bad day I'm sand in the bearings of their rotten machines.

[Occulus]

26. Why don't people interrupt sermons

and say loudly, "excuse me, but you're just flat-out wrong"?

What would happen if there appeared a movement of sermon interruption and questioning?

After what religionS have done to me and people like me- they are not worthy of the respect of silence during the sermon. Why not question them and call them on the carpet, then and there, in front of an entire congregation?

LET them throw one out. Pack the pews. Get six, seven, eight, ten, twenty people, willing to interrupt sermons in turn, after the latest one is ejected.

It's time we started questioning the faith "in da house".

[Nihil]

27. Maybe because of manners and tolerance?

Personally, I couldn't find it in me to be so rude and inconsiderate
of other people's beliefs as to sit through a service I didn't agree
with for the sole purpose of disrupting it.

That's only a short step away from the Fred Phelps mindset IMO.

If a preacher wants to stand up in a public place to spout forth his
nonsense then I'm happy to stand up and challenge him but this is a
whole different ball-game than interrupting the rituals & meditations
of a congregation just to promote my views on science vs religion.

:shrug:

[Occulus]

29. Public schools.

Creationism/ID.

Turnabout is fair play.

[Nihil]

30. YMMV

I can sympathise with the bitterness raised by the "ID" vs science
issues in public schools (and yes, I agree that the only place "ID"
should be taught is in Religious Studies, not as an alternative to
evolution, geology or astronomy in science lessons) but I view that
as a significantly different scenario than interrupting someone else's
religious service.

:shrug:

[unpossibles]

31. while I would never really do it

I don't see the big difference.

[and-justice-for-all]

9. Ah, those poor bastards...

If only they had HARD EVIDENCE to back up their claims. But, they first have to prove that gawd even exist before they can even argue their creationist fantasy.

[FiveGoodMen]

10. Trouble is, they don't need to prove anything. They just need to convince enough followers

and they get all the power.

Look how they've swayed US politics. Was it by proving something? Hell, no. They just gathered up enough wolves-in-sheep's-clothing and started tearing up our constitution.

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. Those Creationist fucks are more far more dangerous than any official terorrist organization.

They are intellectual terrorists, and they are, with nuclear weapons, the greatest danger on the face of this planet.

[krispos42]

14. DOMESTIC intellectual terrorists!

Unfortunately, thanks to Jesus' martyrship, putting these domestic intellectual terrorists in prison or Gitmo would only make them happier because they get to walk in Christ's path!

[FiveGoodMen]

15. "putting these terrorists in Gitmo would only make them happier" -- Let's help 'em out!

I don't mind a bit if they're happy and locked up.

[kestrel91316]

12. These freaks seek to reverse the Enlightenment and

the Renaissance, and quite literally return us to the Dark Ages.

And the sheeple just keep watching Dancing With The Stars, driving Hummers, and eating Twinkies and Big Macs......

[Greyskye]

17. They're going to have a much tougher time convincing folks in Europe

They're a lot smarter than we are it seems. :eyes:

[Nihil]

19. Ah, but on the bright side ...

... you're still smarter than Turkey!

:rofl:

[Greyskye]

20. We're #33! We're #33!

Much better then those #34 losers. :eyes:

[Random_Australian]

23. Actually, you are only #33 on that graph.

Overall, you were second last out of a *lot* of countries, I think.

[hunter]

22. The poor Mormon kids who go on missions in Europe accomplish very little.

They go off all excited that they've been selected to go to Europe rather than some wretched developing nation, but they come home feeling utterly rejected. At best Western Europeans tend to greet them with bemusement, at worst contempt.

Those who go to South American nations have a little more success picking up people who have fallen away from the Catholic Church. The same is true of the Evangelical Protestant churches.

[Unsane]

32. That is an amazing graphic

[mdinusa]

24. ver interesting post; good link

[LongTomH]

25. What kids need to resist this sort of indoctrination is:

1. A good grounding in the scientific method.
   
2. A working knowledge of the scientific evidence for evolution.
   
3. A working knowledge of the mechanisms of evolution.
   
4. Some critical thinking skills.
   

Europe has a chance to develop a curriculum designed around science and critical thinking skills. I don't think there's much of a chance of for such a curriculum in most of the U.S.; maybe a few higher income areas where the parents want their kids to have a chance at getting into a good college.

Of course, with jobs going overseas, there's less of an incentive to teach kids science and math. Those checkout computers at the fast-food joints and big-box stores just have pictures on the keys!

[hunter]

28. Nope, no reason at all. The hospital triage desk in "Idiocracy" says it all....

...push button everything, who needs to know anything?



Doctor: Right, kick ass. Well, don't want to sound like a dick or nothin', but, ah... it says on your chart that you're fucked up. Ah, you talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded. What I'd do, is just like... like... you know, like, you know what I mean, like...

[sakabatou]

33. "Tearing evolution to pieces?"

Where the fuck are they coming from?