Is there a material that will block magnetism....

[unkachuck]

....yet not be attracted or repelled by magnetism? The material wouldn't have to have 100 percent non-interaction either.

I have no college experience so my knowledge is limited. I've search the web but I haven't found anything. You can probably see where I'm going. If I could place two permanent magnets into position without much interaction, then remove this non-interactive valving material, the magnets would interact/repel and we would have a fuel-free motor.

I could easily build this motor if such magnetism-blocking non-interacting material exists. Since we don't already have a motor like this I assume such material doesn't exist.

But, it wouldn't have to be a single type of material. It could be a combination of things, brought together, to yield such an effect. If you could shed some light on this, or even to tell me where I'm wrong, I'd appreciate it. Please keep it simple, thanks....

[Fabio]

1. lead

[dweller]

7. are you sure?

i was going to suggest Fundie/Repug grey brain matter, but it may be the same stuff.

dp

[unkachuck]

8. I will....

....try that....I'll pour a small thin sheet of lead, maybe 2" x 3" x 1/8" thick, and try it out....

....the material will have to relatively thin so the magnets could be position for maximum effect....

[pokerfan]

11. lead will have no effect

You can't actually block magnetic fields. But you can shut or redirect them using a material with a high magnetic permeability. Lead is not such a material.

http://www.lessemf.com/faq-shie.html#Lead-Copper

[unkachuck]

12. thanks pokerfan....n/t

[truedelphi]

2. Keep me posted when someone figures it out

I'm all for alternatives.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. If The Magnetic Field Was Constantly Changing

You might be able to use a Faraday cage.

Otherwise, I suspect you're out of luck.

[unkachuck]

10. thanks MG....

"The metal layers are connected to earth ground to dissipate any electric currents generated from the external electromagnetic fields,.." from Wikipedia

....it's blocking but it's also interacting....it'll take work to induce such currents....

[wtmusic]

4. Save your energy - there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

Never has been, never will be.

[jberryhill]

24. That's cheating, though...

The First Law is a postulate with, yes outrageously abundant empirical support.

Saying that "a perpetual motion machine won't work because that would violate the First Law" is something of a circular statement.

Instead, "if it worked, it would violate the First Law of Thermodynamics" makes more sense. In other words, such a device would profoundly alter a general observation that is consistently shown to be correct in every physical interaction known to mankind.

Aside from which, violating the First Law of Thermodynamics can get you up to 5 years and a $1000 fine in some states.

[Gman]

5. The way I understand it is that

the problem with this idea is the energy needed to generate enough of an electromagnet to power something like this is as much energy as is used by the machine. In other words the machine would still use as much energy as it produces.

[Cirque du So-What]

6. Mu-metal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal

[unkachuck]

9. I'll tear apart an old hard drive....

"Hard Drives, which have mu-metal backings to the magnets found in the drive"

....and check it out, they had other metals listed too, thanks....

[tech3149]

13. There is no materiel that will block a magnetic field

mu metal is the best alternative because of it's efficiency in diverting the magnetic field. It is not iron free and will be attracted to a magnetic field. http://www.mumetal.com/about_mumetal.html I used to use it to focus the magnetic field in slot racing motors. It works very well in directing a magnetic field but it doesn't really block it. If you can modify your concept to utilize that property, I expect you might have some success.

To the naysayers, I can only say there are many forces that we do not perceive or understand in the universe but their effects are still real. The only way to say that something is not possible is to experiment, observe the results and use that information to refine the experiment. It might not happen in our lifetime that a source of "free energy" is found, but I think it will happen. It won't be free energy, it will just be using a greater understanding of the world we live in and using what's available.

[Random_Australian]

14. You are wrong.

Every superconductor will block a magnetic field. They are perfectly diamagnetic while superconducting.

:)

see

"Meissner effect"

[unkachuck]

17. they would not only....

....have to block a magnetic field but also not interact with it. For overcoming interaction would require energy.

Are there any room temperature superconductors available? If not, cooling would require energy also.

[Random_Australian]

20. Yeah, that's the thing "block" and "interact with" are kinda the same thing.

You really can't affect the magnetic field (block it) without interacting with it.

And no, there are no room-temperature superconductors, though the first person to invent one will promptly get about a billion dollars and a Nobel Prize.

[Random_Australian]

15. Sorry, That won't actually form a fuel-free motor.

Unfortunately, you are talking about putting the magnetic field of each magnet into a smaller space (confining it). (It will only not interact with the other magnet if its field is confined).

And confining a magnetic field takes energy. It's no better than any other source.

[unkachuck]

22. thanks Random_Australian....

....I think I'm starting to understand....

[jberryhill]

16. Could you post a diagram of your proposed device?

Just out of curiousity, where do you believe the energy to power your device is coming from, and why do you believe that energy is not consumed in operating your device?

If the plan here is to derive power from static magnetic fields, I'll have some unhappy news for you, but I'd like to see exactly what it is you are proposing to do.

For a more advanced concept of using a "magnetic shield" to produce an engine, here is a humdinger from the Museum of Unworkable Devices:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm#cheng



It's much simpler, since it is a rotary machine, instead of the reciprocating linear oscillator which you seem to be on the trail of.

You might find a number of inspirational ideas from the site generally:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Alternatively, you might consider adapting the classic "gravity shield" engine:



Simply use a steel disk, place your magnets underneath, 'shield' half of the wheel from your magnets, and there you go - one half of the wheel is attracted to the magnets and the thing spins forever.

[unkachuck]

18. the energy....

would come from permanent magnets.

In it's simplest form, imagine two disks of rotating permanent magnets passing about an 1/8" from each others on edge. The two rotating disks would be geared to each other so that when the magnets (like poles) passed each other they would be parallel and in sync.

As the like magnets approached each other a reciprocating plate/valve mechanism made from this magnetic-field-blocking yet non-interactive material would be timed to position itself between the approaching magnets. This valving material would allowed the magnets to be positioned without the magnets interacting.

Once the magnets were in position (slightly past parallel I would assume, but for difference speeds and torques this would be variably timed and determined by actual operation) the plate/valve mechanism would quickly retract and allow the magnets to interact and repel.

The cycle would then repeat for the next magnetic pair as the disks rotated.

[jberryhill]

19. You could simplify that a bit...

...such that the position of your "non-interacting magnetic shield" is determined by rotation.

Consider this design, for example:




The behavior of magnets is often fascinating to observe, as they exert force on each other, and on metallic objects. One is tempted to think that their movement is due to their "stored" magnetic energy, and if you could design a device to turn that stored energy into useful work, you'd have achieved, if not perpetual motion, at least something very useful. Such is the allure of magnets to perpetual motion seekers. Even if they understand that magnet internal energy is not being extracted, they suppose that the magnets are somehow a conduit of energy stored in the vacuum, or somewhere else.


That machine is also discussed among magnetic approaches to perpetual motion generally, at the Museum of Unworkable Devices (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/cheng2.htm)

Now, here's why I was curious about where you believe the energy to be coming from. Your response indicates that you believe a magnet to have energy of some kind stored in it. Okay, so do you think this is an unlimited supply of energy, or do you suppose that eventually the magnets would wear out because they've given up all of that energy within them?

Ultimately, while it is not necessary to get into the "shield" mechanism to otherwise bring you to an understanding of why your device won't work - and far be it from me to discourage you from trying - you'll find this idea of a "non-interacting shield" to be a tough nut to crack. Materials such as "mu metal" (so named because the coefficient of magnetic permeability of a material is expressed in Maxwell's equations by the Greek letter mu), are used as magnetic shielding materials because of their strong interaction with magnetic fields - i.e. they confine the magnetic fields therein. Hence, using a high permeability material as your shield is going to result in your machine having to expend at least as much energy, if not more, inserting and removing the shield than you are going to get from the motive power of the rotation. Likewise, as someone above noted superconductors, the issue is not so much whether the field is pinned inside the material, or whether the field is altered by surface interaction, as demonstrated in the ever-popular "floating magnet" demonstration:



...there will still be a considerable force exerted on the material, which our correspondent proposes to insert and remove between magnets on a reciprocating basis.

[unkachuck]

21. "or....

....do you suppose that eventually the magnets would wear out because they've given up all of that energy within them?"

For years the motorcycle industry has used permanent magnet alternators to produce currents. Whether the magnets degrade over time with the output suffering, I don't know. They do have a long useful service life. :) But I get your point. The alternator is just using the field to transfer mechanical energy into electrical energy.

"..this idea of a "non-interacting shield" to be a tough nut to crack."

Ok, that substance doesn't exist.

If I understand what you're saying (and others), is that you can not block a magnetic field without interacting with it and that interaction takes energy.

And after allowing for all losses, there is no way to position two magnets for interaction without using more energy than they could produce. I guess that's why the machine doesn't exist.

Has anybody discovered/made a single pole magnet?

Thanks jberryhill

[jberryhill]

23. Permanent magnet alternators or motors

...don't extract energy from the magnets. The energy comes from the motion of the magnets past a coil of wire (in the case of an alternator), or the energy is expended moving a coil of wire past a magnet (in the case of a permanent magnet motor). A change of magnetic field in the vicinity of a conductor will induce a current in that conductor. There can be some slight demagnetization over time, but it is not related to the energy output of the generator, which is turning kinetic energy into electrical energy...



A great animation, showing the basics of an AC permanent magnet generator (alternator) is here:

http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph11e/generator_e.htm

It is assumed that someone or something is turning the crank at the business end of the shaft. The magnet just provides a static magnetic field through which the wire loop is rotated, but the "energy source" is the crank.

And here's the nub of the thing. "Generating" energy is something of a misnomer. Nobody and nothing "generates" energy. All you can do is to "convert" energy from one form to another or, in a nuclear reaction convert matter into energy. But at the end of the day, the energy has to come from somewhere. With permanent magnets the idea that they are "doing something" is nearly irresistible, but they'll sit there with a magnetic field around them from now until doomsday. They aren't performing work simply by being magnets.

If I understand what you're saying, is that you can not block a magnetic field without interacting with it and that interaction takes energy which would yield you nothing.

That's one way of looking at it, yes.

You could, on the other hand, head in the direction that most folks go with this idea, and then use electromagnets that you can turn on or off at various points in the cycle. After a "jump start" with a battery, you then use the output from your generator to run the magnets. That's pretty much what the guys at Lutec in Australia claim to have invented www.lutec.com.au and you can invest in their project for $100,000 a share.

So after allowing for all losses, there is no way to position two magnets for interaction without using more energy than they could produce?

Based on everything we know about physics, no. But as I said, don't let me discourage you from trying. People said the Wright Brothers would never get off the ground either. As a patent attorney, I've had people come to me with this kind of thing fairly often. My usual advice is simply to say "You build the prototype, and I'll take care of the money."

What I will say is that the path you are heading down is very well trodden. A great place to get magnets, by the way, is here:

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/

They sell very strong magnets in a variety of shapes and sizes. Building electric motors out of odds and ends is my idea of fun.

On the question of a magnetic monopole, here you run into another of Maxwell's equations:



...which, translated into English, says "no". If you think of an electric field, such as a field emanating from a charged particle, it radiates outward. This equation says that a magnetic field doesn't do that, or that there is no such thing as a "magnetic charge".

Maxwell's equations, which are four equations that describe all classical electromagnetic phenomena, are after all merely empirical. In other words, while they describe everything we know about classic electromagnetic phenomena, they do so by embodying all of our observations of these phenomena.

What's kind of interesting is that one can introduce a hypothetical magnetic monopole into Maxwell's equations, and still come up with a set of equations consistent with everything we do know, and leave open the possibility that we just haven't found one yet. And that's not for lack of looking, either. A number of experiments have been conducted to determine whether magnetic monopoles exist, and have come up empty.

Finally, a lot of good mechanical stuff has been a byproduct of the quest for perpetual motion machines, and messing around with motors and magnets and things is always a good way to learn stuff, so....

Keep on Truckin'



(and, yes, your question about magnetic monopoles is a good one. Our gentleman above could get his buggy to work if he had one.)

[Celebration]

25. try figuring out Coral Castle

Here is a picture of the "generator", based on magnets--



In his pamphlet on magnetism (most people don't understand it because he only had a fourth grade education), he has an experiment having to do with a car battery. Apparently the experiment actually works, but it shouldn't.

I went there, and if anyone can figure out how in the heck he quarried and lifted that stone out of the ground with a straight 90 degree cut into the ground (indicating that leverage was not used), then please let me know.

Do a google search for Coral Castle and it will provide plenty of material for self exploration of magnetism, which is out of the box of mainstream science. If you can go there, all the better. The tour guides there are great! A few of them may even understand some things. They do it for the love of the place, not the pay.