A question for you healthy eating mavens ......

[Stinky The Clown]

(The title was intended to be complimentary .... I hope you took it that way.)

I'm trying to cut way down on red meat, but am not all that fond of boneless skinless chicken breasts (I have a few ways I make them that I actually like).

So pork has become my go-to meat when I want a 'steak' kind of eating experience. Boneless center cut loin chops, to be specific. Very well trimmed of fat, but not totally fat free. I have been brining it and then grilling it after applying a light coat of olive oil and a heavy coating of various spice rubs. I grill it to just above medium. The taste is as big as a steak and the mouth is very similar. Overall, it is 99% as satisfying as a big ol' primo steak.

My question to you ........... am I deluding myself with the pork by pretty much equating it to the boneless, skinless chicken breast in terms of health benefits as compared to a nice, well marbled, rare steak?

[supernova]

1. I use whole porkloins

for a low fat meat experience. Only about 8 gms of fat on a serving. They have very little fat on the outside and a little silver skin that must be removed or cut so it doesn't curl during cooking. And I get the fresh ones, not the premarinated ones swimming in salt. :puke:

I'm not fond of chicken breasts either, unless they're still attached to the whole chicken. They are just dry, dry, dry and don't take seaasoning very well either.

You can compare the two here at calorie king:

http://www.calorieking.com/foods/search.php?keywords=pork+loin&partner=&showresults=yes


edit: I actually now eat fish (fish fish -- shellfish still limited to 1x/month or so) and chicken more than anything else.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. We eat a lot of fish, too.

The issue with fish (which we eat a **lot** of and which I **very** much enjoy) is that none of it, not even tuna, satisfies my steak cravings.

If I brine the chicken, lightly oil it, rub it, and grill it, Its tolerable .... but not exciting.

Pork stays much more moist and takes the rubs I use really well.

[Kali]

2. Yes I think you are deluding yourself, about the chicken as well.

But full disclosure: I am a rancher and raise beef. It can be a perfectly healthy food that you do not need to deprive yourself of.
http://www.eatwild.com/

[Stinky The Clown]

9. All evidence holds that, on balance, chicken and pork are healthier than beef

That said, I don't deny myself all beef. I just deny myself *as much* beef. I also deny myself certain cuts. For steak, I eat flank or chuck eye (actually, higher in fat than a rib eye, but smaller and tastier). I also use chuck to make beef soups (noodle, barley, etc.). I'll have beef maybe twice a month.

What do I avoid in beef? I love liver. No more for that. No more prime rib.

I never liked filet .... too dry and bland.

[hippywife]

3. I really think

you can eat any of it in moderation. Like someone around here said in another thread (maybe even in another forum) eat what you like, just not as MUCH as you'd like. And as much of it natural and organic from a trusted source as you can.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. You hit my biggest weakness .... portion size

I dare say both Sparkly and I are really good cooks and we cook what we like. Food, for me, is sensuous and I'm hedonistic by nature. So I tend to overdo on the consumption side.

[hippywife]

17. Well, the other option

is to have meatless, low fat, low cholesterol meals all week and then have a bigger steak than yiou normally would be allowed as a treat on the weekend, maybe?

[mtnester]

4. I can eat a lean cut of beef, and lean chicken..however, what cannot eat lean

is pork. It simply sucks IMO. All the pork now is trimmed WAY up (too much IMO...if you want to trim it some more when you get home fine...but at least let me START with some).

I refuse top buy pork off the shelf..I make them cut it and direct the trim on it. I buy plenty when I do so it does not piss the butcher off.

Sorry for the rant...my father was a butcher by trade and I tend to have strong opinions about meat.

Now, let's discuss pork jowl bacon :)

[Stinky The Clown]

10. Don't even mention bacon - Verboten!

I have tried a few bacon substitutes ..... turkey bacon and chicken bacon .... not so bad, but not the real thing. I think I've pretty much decided if I can't have real bacon, I won't have anything.

Now ...... chicken and turkey breakfast sausages are available and taste remarkably good. I also have some chicken chorizo that I treat like hot dogs - REALLY good!

[The empressof all]

5. I too agree that you can eat that steak in moderation

I wouldn't go for a rib-eye. But a small piece of Sirloin will not kill you. If you go for a few meatless dinners a week a steak or burger isn't going to kill you.

I follow the South Beach Diet (tweaked) This is lower fat/low carb. I've dramatically reduced my high cholesterol. It's fairly restrictive in some sense but I do allow myself a cheat meal once or twice a month. Since I cook I have terrific meals. It works for me and I feel healthier than when I followed a more vegetarian diet. (....not critical of veg folks at all..I did it for years and ethically I wish I could live up to my ideals)

I'm sure you've looked at the research regarding the health benefits each WOE (way of eating) can have on your health. Don't assume your doctor or nutritionist has explored all the options with you. They often are only trained in "traditional" nutrition which isn't best for everyone. (End of Lecture...Sorry)

PS: Don't forget the Turkey!

[Stinky The Clown]

11. I'm a 'proof is in the pudding' kinda guy ......

I can get my blood work pretty much at will on a walk-in basis. I get my BP checked three times a week at my gym, and often wear a heart monitor when I am doing more than sitting. I can see immediate results of diet changes. Rather than follow a specific diet, I find that simply being aware of what's good and what's not so good helps keep me eating well while eating what I like.

[The empressof all]

13. I too think it's all very individual

For me I just don't do well without animal protein. I lived vegan for two years and vegetarian for 10 more and I found the older I got the less I was able to tolerate veg. based protein. I've learned that what works for me isn't right for everyone but I'm happy that I found a WOE that makes me feel healthier. Now if it could cure my arthritis and I lose a little more weight ...well that would be something!

[NMDemDist2]

6. i'm wondering if brining is doing you any favors

seems the added salt will negate the benefits

talk to your dietitian, but it seems a 4-6 oz steak wouldn't be any worse than brined pork

i made a pork loin roast last night, rubbed it with paprika, sage, rosemary and oregano, then basted with a mix of worchestershire and my faux white wine.

:9

[Stinky The Clown]

12. When brining, the salt doesn't all remian in the meat.

As I understand it, it depends on how long you brine it. Too short results in higher sodium. Longer time and the sodium moves out ...... but too long again, and the sodium's back in.

I brine my chops for an hour, or just a tad less, but at **least** for 45 minutes and never more than an hour and a half.

By the way, I also add brown sugar to my brine. It helps the outside of the meat caramelize nicer and crispier. when grilling

[sandnsea]

7. I think how much veggies you add

to your diet is the most important thing. Pork loin, filet mignon, 97% burger, fish, sirloin steak. Small pieces of any of it is fine. The key is small pieces of meat and LOTS Of vegetables and complex carbs. And exercise. We grill pork chops too, I also have a great recipe that uses maple syrup and pears. I use splenda syrup. We were also told to have two meatless meals a week. Sounds to me like you're doing great!

[Stinky The Clown]

14. We do two or three meatless meals a week.

Sparkly is a vegetarian who eats fish and can get past the meat origin in things like onion soup. She simply doesn't like meat. So we do quite a few meatless meals (fish being 'meat' in this context). She's also been trying to cut sugar out of her diet (she gets sugar rushes that go away when she has no sugar). And since we've been grilling vegetables, I eat more than I once did. I'm not much of a vegetable eater by nature, but grilled is great. Sparkly also makes chopped salads with crunchy raw veggies and her own balsamic vinagarette - I can eat tons of that.

[sandnsea]

16. I thought meatless meant no fish

We try to do soy or eggbeaters or something with no meat at all. I didn't know they meant that fish was considered a meatless meal. I add fish separately. I agree with you on the grilled vegetables, yum. I make a grill packet with sweet potatoes, green beans, red potatoes and some onion. Sooo good.

[grasswire]

18. question

Is the aversion to beef aimed at weight loss, or at cholesterols?

Because Dr. Berstein in his NYT bestseller on diabetes control argues that it isn't eating cholesterol that causes cardiovascular problems, but rather too many carbs -- for various reasons. His diet is a modified Atkins. I'm taking his suggestions but not strictly following his meager carb allowance. I can eat bacon, beef, cream, butter, etc. But I can't eat much bread. (Not to mention pasta.) I'll have blood work done this month and see any effect. Gotta say that I feel much better on the low carbs.

So much is changing in the research right now. It seems that every week a stunning new finding is throwing a wrench in accepted treatments. I feel that I really have to be my own advocate and inform myself.

Oh, have your thyroid levels been checked lately? Bernstein says that cholesterol problems affecting cardiovascular system are often due to a thyroid deficiency.

And are you taking any supplements? Does your doc recommend coQ10 or the others that allegedly strengthen heart function?

Personally, my worries about heart trouble were greatly diminished when the ER doc told me to start taking magnesium supplement. Damn! Every day of my life for years I have worried about dropping dead because of the arrhythmias I suffered. Started taking magnesium, and that is GONE. Just gone. I rarely have any abnormal beats now.

Just had four slices of bacon and half a piece of wheat toast spread with avocado for breakfast, and coffee with cream. Previously, I would never have allowed myself the bacon. And I'm losing weight.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. A little bit of both ... plus .....

I have coronary artery disease and I am 'borderline diabetic'. Inherent in controlling both is weight loss.

I was about 200 lbs when I had my heart attack. I was as high as 217 since then, but am down to 201 as of this week. My doc wants me under 200 by March. I think I'll be there, but my personal goal is under 180.

My BP and cholesterol are both medically controlled and are both in a good range. My trigycerides were quite high six months ago, but were down three months ago, all by diet.

So, actually, I'm thinking the most bang for the buck for me is to remain mindful of what I'm eating and to drop another ten to twenty pounds.

I exercise three days a week and have a nurse follow my progress. I have no limits on my exertion levels other than common sense and to not go beyond really heavy breathing.

I am currently 'studying' for a stress test in March. I take my treadmill up to an elevation of 15 every time I exercise. I normally stay at an elevation of 3 to 6 and a speed of 3.1 or 3.2 (fast walk). Stress testing takes you up to an elevation of 15 and keeps you there till you time out or cry uncle. I stay at 15 for two to four minutes when I exercise, so I am expecting good results on the stress test.

But the BIGGEST thing is that I quit smoking almost a year ago. All the rest of this, while very good to do, is lily gilding. The issues I faced were from the smoking.

[grasswire]

21. keep on plugging!

Here's a link to a real interesting article from the NYT published in July 2002 regarding the research science behind the low-fat diet vs. the low carb diet as they relate to cardiovascular disease and diabetes. There's a LOT of helpful info in it -- I've had to read it several times to absorb everything. I urge you to read it and then read it again.

http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/articles/fatlie.shtml

[Stinky The Clown]

23. I just cut and pasted that to a PDF that is now on my desktop.

Thanks for the link!

[woofless]

20. Real Food

Stinky, please get Nina Planck's book "Real Food- what to eat and why". Much of the low fat/grain driven diet is just bad for you. Michael Pollan's "In Defense Of Food" is also an eye opener. Just remember, if Julia Child liked it, it's okay for you. Heart disease is an industrial-age disease. It occurred much less frequently when the general diet was whole foods.

An aside, thanks so much for your tip a couple years ago about Fante's, and in particular their carbon steel crepe pans. I got a couple and am in non-stick heaven. I now use them for everything I might have grabbed a non-stick saute' pan for and I'm quite pleased with them.
Thanks again,

Woof

[Stinky The Clown]

22. What a nice thing to say!

I'm glad the crepe pans are working for you. I think they're the cat's pajamas!

I'm not familiar with either of the books you recommend, but (just guessing here), that's pretty much what I'm doing. Apart from limiting beef, I'm eating what I like and seem to be doing okay with it.

My beef intake used to be pretty prodigious. Both in volume and in frequency. I now limit myself to a few favorite cuts and less than once a week (and sometimes less than that).

The one thing I cut out that feels like deprivation is salumi of all sorts. And I simply **love** sausages of all manner. Cured sausage in particular. Sopressata is one that just pains me to think about. Mortadella, too. However, even with these, once a month I get a quarter pound of one or the other or another and make a nice sandwich with nothing but bread and my sausage du jour. No mustard, no tomato, no nothing. Just me and that sausage.

Some ongoing compromises that make sense include a switch from good old Barilla pastas to Ronzoni's Healthy Harvest line.



which carries this label



I have tried all the whole grain macaronis available in this area. Most taste okay but have a pretty mushy texture. The Ronzoni tastes like macaroni with a slightly nutty taste. Very nice and not intrusive. But the big thing in its favor is the texture. It isn't identical to traditional pasta, but its damned close. No mushiness and a nice al dente bite to it.

So, all in all, there have been changes to my diet, but I am not following any one set of rules in particular.

And like Julia, I still eat butter.

Just less.

[hippywife]

24. Woofless

brings up some good info. I have In Defense of Food on request at the library and it's going to be awhile before I get it, so many people want it! I don't know if you saw this vid that Crisco posted a couple of weeks ago. It's about 40 mins. of Michael Pollan on BookTV talking about what's in the book and I really enjoyed watching it and listening to what he had to say:

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9023&SectionName=&PlayMedia=No

Keep up the great work, tho! I need to get my own ass in gear, too. Especially with regards to the smoking. I try to cook as healthy as possible but can't seem to drop the cigs. Makes sense doesn't it? :crazy:

[The empressof all]

25. Barilla is making a whole grain pasta now too....

High in those Omega 3's It's fabulous!

You also might want to look for the Dreamfield Brand as well. It's a low carb pasta that is excellent.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. I've had the Barilla and agree that its good.

But I like the Ronzoni even better.

These two brands - and everyone else, too - has a very different take on what whole wheat or whole grain pasta means. Whole wheat ..... whole grain (with things like flax in it) ..... low carb ...... enhanced with certain other 'beneficial' traits ...... etc., etc.

[grasswire]

27. yep

Whole wheat-whole grain is still carbs, and the body turns carbs into sugar which is stored as body fat. I'm just beginning to learn about the low carb benefits and (as that article maintains) the data contradicts what Americans have been taught since the 1970s but are now realizing. The role of the NIH in promoting that unproven leap just makes me want to scream simply because it allowed so much profiteering at the expense of health in America.

[The empressof all]

28. That's right

I use the Barilla and even the Dreamfields very sparingly. Usually I have Pasta for my "cheat" meals.

[Warpy]

29. I can't eat the stuff, myself

and usually substitute turkey in Chinese cooking that requires pork (came through on a gene, don't ask).

However, factory raised pork, no matter how awful it is for the pigs and any human within about 20 miles of the place when the wind is right, produces very lean pork chops, much leaner than commercial, well marbled beefsteak.

Of course, the fat content depends on where the meat was taken from the animal, and there are lean cuts of beef and fatty types of chicken.

A good guide for the saturated fat content of various cuts of meat is at http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/fat-saturated.php

[midnight armadillo]

30. Get some grass-fed beef!

Grass-raised beef is MUCH healthier than the usual industrial corn-fed crap. Not only is it full of omega-3's, it's also tastier. My local Whole Foods even does dry-aged grass-fed beef at the meat counter - they age it right in the store.

Same comments go for buffalo, which incidentally is grass-fed by law. Very tasty, I'm going to Bison County near Boston this week for lunch.

I can't remember where you're located, but you can get pasture raised meat all over the country. Here's a state-by-state reference: http://www.eatwild.com/

[Stinky The Clown]

31. I'd forgotten about bison. You're right ...... its better than beef

Do you remember beefalo? It was all the rage in the late 70s and early 80s.

[midnight armadillo]

36. That was before my time

I was born in '75, so my memories of beefalo are dim at best :)

[TygrBright]

32. Try buffalo (bison) steaks, Stinky!

They are very low in cholesterol & fat, cheaper than beef, and incredibly tasty. We use buffalo for stew and roasts and all kindsa things. Himself was a little iffy before we tried it, but he's a convert now. Grass-fed beef is great, too, and also lower in fat and cholesterol.

helpfully,
Bright

[Stinky The Clown]

35. I recall eating it many years ago when bison and beefalo were available in soopermarkets

I recall liking it better than beef. I also recall that the cuts, while essentially the same as beef, were so much bigger!

I haven't seen it here in Maryland .... ever.

[grasswire]

33. more

Stinky, I just found this page authored by Dr. Sinatra, a pioneer in the arena of "interventional" cardiology -- interventional meaning an aggressive prevention approach to cardiovascular health through diet, supplements, and non-invasive procedures.

This is the page where he makes his case for supplements. I had read about his regimen previously, and I'm going to totally assess the whole thing for myself (and probably drop money on bottles of this and that at my local natural foods shop).

http://www.drsinatra.com/c/landing_hearthc.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1

One paragraph related to our prior discussion of low fat-high carb:

"Note: Like many cardiologists, I used to recommend low-fat, high-carbohydrate foods to my cardiac patients. I was caught up in the low-fat, high-carbohydrate craze that swept across the country ten years ago. Boy, was I off the mark! In fact, I was so wrong that I wrote a book, Lower Your Blood Pressure in Eight Weeks, in which I highlighted the PAMM diet."

The PAMM stands for Pan Asian Modified Mediterranean, by the way.

[hvn_nbr_2]

34. You might try boneless skinless chicken thighs sometimes

If breast meat is kind of bland for you, the thighs have more flavor and are fairly versatile for using in recipes. They have more fat than breasts but still less than beef. Not really a substitute for steak, but still tasty.

[Warpy]

37. They're also very high in cholesterol

as is dark turkey meat. Dark poultry meat should be eaten sparingly. I can see using it to fill ravioli, but not a large quantity as the main event.

His best bet is the pork chop, seared on both sides and then braised in some fat free, low salt chicken stock.

[midnight armadillo]

38. what's wrong with cholesterol?

If you eat more than your body needs, your liver just won't manufacture it anymore.

Heck, I have cholesterol tests before and after an 18-month stint where I was eating 3-4 eggs per day, and there was zero difference in the test results. Of course, a single anecdotal story from one guy isn't worth a hill of beans, medically speaking :)

Trans fats, now those are just bad for you.