Mysticism and Psychosis

[Kind of Blue]

Interesting article comparing/contrasting the experiences from a psychiatric point of view. Begins with this...

Early in my psychiatric career, while treating psychotic patients who had experiences with powerful religious imagery, I started wondering whether the great mystics of the past would have been considered the psychotic patients of the present, and whether the patients I was caring for would have been considered great saints in the past. Is the mystic psychotic? Is the psychotic patient a misunderstood mystic?

And ends like so...

Most importantly, I hope this discussion will make us more sensitive to the personal, subjective experience of others. We need to remain open and respectful, without judgment, helping the psychotic to heal and the mystic to live fully all the possibilities latent in the human soul.

http://seedsofunfolding.org/issues/11_08/feature_english.htm

[Celebration]

1. fascinating topic

I think I remember that the DSM-IV includes the use of "culture" to determine whether or not someone is having delusions. So, a person saying that they have a conversation with Jesus, in the USA, would most likely not be considered delusional, while someone saying they had a converstation with Cleopatra might be. I'm enough of an anarchist that I think that might be a little bit unfair. Obviously other factors are taken into consideration--I know I am oversimplifying.

I also know that certain people should not even attempt altered states of any sort--whether drug induced, or just straight meditation. Why? Some people just have too big of a propensity for delusions, and being out of touch with reality, and staying there. I know of someone who became a psychiatric case just by attending a conventional prayer group-- well, "conventional" only in the sense of what that means in the bible belt (sheesh)!

[Kind of Blue]

5. Wonder what kind of prayer group that was!

:wow: Funny, what's considered delusional or even sinful can vary by geography or culture. It's about time the DSM started including it, it's done a lot of damage in many respects, based on culture.

[Celebration]

9. from what I understand

The people in the prayer group were pretty extreme Christians, but very functional in their everyday lives.

But this one person went into OCD of 24/7 praying, and couldn't even cook dinner. After a divorce, losing her kids, etc. I heard she came out of it--most likely with prescriptions. I only know this story from a very reliable second hand source.

The thing is--she had specifically avoided any kind of religion because that very thing had happened to her mother. Then, I guess that she fell into the "wrong crowd", so to speak. So, this can be a genetic thing. There are certain people who just should NOT meditate or pray, or take LSD.

[Kind of Blue]

11. Thanks, Celebration. That's an incredible story.

Poor dear. Funny how some things that we resist persists to the point where sometimes we have to jump in and investigate. There but by the grace of God we go.

[Celebration]

13. related to why people tend to pick the "wrong" people etc.

For a long time it was a mystery to me why people would repeat the same mistakes over and over again. As an example, why would someone keep picking an abusive partner? Or, make the same adult mistakes that their parents made?

It's not a mystery any more. The psyche tends to pick things that are "unresolved", in an effort to be able to deal with them. It is the same reason that people with PTSD have the same dreams, of the past war or whatever, because we have to be EXPOSED to something before we completely deal with it. So, we pick exposure. Even talk therapy is based on this principle, but talking about it alone doesn't always clear the issue.

In this case, she was probably having issues with the problems her mother had. So, she chose these same issues, in an effort to deal with it.

Avoidance of the problem would have been better, but once she dipped her toe in the water by choosing fundamentalist friends, there just was no turning back.

Actual blockages in the body's energy system are present in these cases. It's why I like the idea of EFT and other energy therapies. EFT is a kind of self talk therapy, stimulating acupuncture points and meridians at the same time.

[FirstLight]

2. I cant wait to read the whole thing...

But this is not unfamiliar to me. My Mentor/shamanic guide is also a LCSW and does alot of "spiritual emergence" work with folks..finding their life purpose in the soul's desire and healing th wounds of lifetimes and present family dynamics all rolled into one...

Kundalini movement can certainly be seen as crazy. I have done holotropic breathing workshops and thought that if my mother walked in she'd think we were all whacko or on something! lol

I have a really good book, a collection of essays by prominent psychlogists , etc about this -
"Spiritual Emergency" really fascinating comparison...especially for those of us who have had religious experiences outside of the "norm" - visions, journeys, healings, illnesse... etc
I believe as the planet resonates higher and higher, the experiences we have that are more "ethereal" now will become more of our "reality"

I personaly prefer the Native American Spirituality because of this absence of separation...LIFE is the dreamwalk, and spirit speaks in the wind, the movement of the animals and in your soul... a-HO! :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. a-HO

I love the Red Road too, because of the experiences and lessons taught through Ceremony.

[Kind of Blue]

6. Hey, FirstLight. What is LCSW?

[FirstLight]

8. It's one of those counseling degrees

Licensed Clinical Social Worker....she does couples counseling, individuals, and group stuff...

[Kind of Blue]

14. Thanks, FirstLight.

It's so cool that counselors such as yours exists. My cousin-in-law is a child psychologist, has been a sensitive all her life, and knows her natural gifts are a bonus in her line of work.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Glad to read the conclusion

There are some who simply say a mystic is really a mental case and let it go at that. What I have noticed in my life is that the mystics I know have their visions and all and otherwise are quite practical and down to earth. Most do not speak of their visions outside their circle of safety, however, because of the prejudice against them.

[Kind of Blue]

7. Yeah, I figured I'd better include it

for a rounder view of where the good doctor was headed. Yeah, mysticism does add a lot to appreciating ourselves and life. It's cool living in awe, enthusiasm, and a sense of discovery.

[Chovexani]

15. There is also the practical matter of just *how* you describe something like a vision to others.

Occidental occultism has something called the Witch's Pyramid, which are basically like four natural goals every Practitioner should strive for: To Know, To Dare, To Will, and To Be Silent. This is the foundation of all genuine practice.

That last part is often taken to mean "Don't talk about Fight Club" but it really goes much deeper than that. A truly mystical experience is generally impossible to describe to someone who was not part of it. I can't speak of my experiences with my Lady, not because I'm not "supposed" to (well, I'm not, but that's neither here nor there), but because I...can't. How do you describe a rainbow to someone without sight? The majestic splendor of an aria to someone who can't hear? It's the same thing, really.

A mystical experience is inherently experiential. There is no logical knowing one. It's something that hits you on the deepest, most primal level of the soul and there are no words in any spoken or written language of humans that can convey such an experience.

[Thirtieschild]

10. I know a young man who insists his psychotic episodes are spiritual

He's the son of a good friend and I once visited him at a hospital during a psychotic episode. My sense was that his personality had disintegrated, leaving him open to everything. I felt as if he was picking up every vibration around him, all of it a jumble, my thoughts, the thoughts of people driving by in a car, the other patient's thoughts and feelings, all of it coming in at once, no control, no ability to sort it out. It felt spiritual to him and, because he was so open, it may well have been. I felt at the time that the personality, like the skin, holds us together. His psychotic episodes have come and gone for years, and have become more chaotic and potentially violent. The genes aren't good - his father and sister committed suicide, another sister is alcoholic; many, many members of his father's family, going back generations, are psychotic.

[Kind of Blue]

12. I can relate to the guy picking up

vibrations all around him. My late beloved uncle suffered from Mooren's ulcer (autoimmune blindness in many people with Saharan ancestry that probably started as a defense against sandstorms). He volunteered at NIH for treatment of a new drug. Well, this triggered a permanent religious frenzy that came along with precognition, hearing peoples' thoughts, automatic writing. Before that he was just a blind man making his way through the world, but then became like a transient wholly focused on messages from beyond, outbursts of laughter or crazy condemnations from hearing passing thoughts, delivering automatic writings for me to read to him. Luckily he was never violent, just really, really pumped up on life, though the drug didn't work and caused even greater pains in his eyes.

Back in early '95 or '96, he he called up so upset, just sobbing about a fire in the house and nothing to be done about it. My parents hired an electrical guy and called the gas/electric company to check out the house. Everything checked out just fine. Before the end of a very hot summer, some faulty wires in the attic (can't remember the exact term) combusted and we lost just about everything.

He died after I'd moved so far away. While in mourning, I dreamed of being lost in my new city and asked a young guy who was tying his shoelaces for directions. He looked up with a familiar smile with a full set of white teeth (that I never knew my uncle to have) and pointed. I thanked the young guy but as I started to walk away, I felt that I knew him, especially since he was totally decked out in a funky '70s outfit my uncle loved :rofl: I went back to him and said you remind of my uncle. The young man hugged me and I could smell my uncle's favorite cologne all over him, and I immediately woke laughing like a loon myself, the happiest I'd been since his passing.