cross post from R/T Minor moral dilemma

[cosmik debris]

I posted this in R/T just to stir discussion, but I am posting it here so that I might learn what reasonable people think.

I have been called for jury duty on Monday.

It is quite likely that I will be asked to swear an oath on some ancient book or some mythical deity.

Last time I was called for jury duty, I refused to take a religious oath and I was removed from the jury pool. (Yes, I know that is illegal, but I was not willing to fight that battle.)

So, should I take a meaningless oath on some myth or should I stand up for my rights and get kicked out of the jury pool?

I've been thinking it over and I really don't care if they ask me to swear on someone else's deity. I'm reminded of a British expression "by Jove" which is an oath to the Greco-Roman god Jove/ Jupiter. It is an oath taken casually and has no serious meaning just as "so help me god" has no meaning to me.

So when they ask me "Do you solemnly swear......so help you god.?" what is wrong with saying "Sure, why not?." What difference does it make if I take an oath to some meaningless mythology?

What would you do if you were required to swear an oath to some deity that you believed didn't exist?

[trotsky]

1. Couldn't you ask to affirm on a copy of the Constitution?

You don't have to bring up religion at all, just say that you want to honor the supreme law of this land.

[cosmik debris]

2. That sounds reasonable

But reason and religion don't mix.

If I don't do it their way, I'm gone.

But I can deprive them of their power by taking the meaningless oath and then doing the right thing anyway. An oath to their god is no more binding than an oath to Jupiter or to Hobbits.

So, what have I got to lose?

[enlightenment]

10. Where on earth do you live, CD?

I don't know of a state in the Union that does not allow potential and/or chosen jurors to affirm rather than swear.

For that matter, I've never heard of potential jurors being forced to swear/affirm before they are brought into the jury pool for questions. Most people never make it that far, so why bother. And if it's a group oath (which I have done in Colorado) prior to going into the courtroom for the question/selection process) you can say what ever you want - if you want to swear, you can swear; affirm, affirm.

I'm very concerned to hear that there is a state that will bounce a citizen for this reason - it is strictly illegal - and would like to know where you live.

[cosmik debris]

17. Texas

And let me make it clear that it is not the "state that will bounce a citizen for this reason". It is the act of the INDIVIDUALS in charge.

It is somewhat like racism. They don't tell you that you are excluded because you are Black, Hispanic or other non-white. They just exclude you and leave you to prove that it is racism. Even the most obvious cases of racism can't be proven if there is no more than a wink and a nod.

It is just understood here that everyone is a Christian. To point out that you are different is to eliminate yourself.

[enlightenment]

24. Ah - okay.

That makes more sense. I got the impression that it was a formalised rejection rather than the standard subversive tactics of discrimination.

My sympathies.

[PassingFair]

3. As a potential jury member, I would ask for a secular oath.

If I were a potential DEFENDANT, I would
KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT and swear on a STACK
of Buybulls!

[cosmik debris]

4. That's a good way to get out of jury duty

But I think I would rather sit on the jury. The only way I can do that is to pretend that I respect their oath.

It seems that the question is, do I allow them to exclude me or do I take away their power by ignoring their superstition?

I see an opportunity for me to get the upper hand. And I will probably take it. Being the "atheist mole" on a jury sounds like fun! And I don't see a cost to that. It is as if I am empowered to mock them, and even their all-powerful god can't stop me.

[PassingFair]

5. Aren't you afraid that god will strike you down?

:crazy:

I would swear on the book, IF I wanted to be
on the jury.

You sound like FOREMAN material!

After all, I CONSTANTLY stand and do the
pledge of allegiance thingy, even though I
conspicuously leave out the "under god"
part, I don't LIKE it....

[cosmik debris]

6. That is probably the way this will turn out.

I have tried standing up for The Constitution, The Law Of The Land, Truth, Justice, and The American Way. That was pointless.

So now I will try to subvert all those who are working against The Constitution, The Law Of The Land, Truth, Justice, and The American Way.

Sometimes a frontal assault is not the most productive.

[PassingFair]

7. The Court, the Prosecutors and the Defendant will be LUCKY to have you.

A FACT-LOVING ATHEIST is the perfect person to
have on a jury!

[moggie]

8. I answered over in R/T

I think for me the key point is that serving on a jury isn't for your benefit. And it's unlikely to be "fun", particularly if you get a rape or murder trial. If you're looking for "fun", you should exclude yourself from jury duty, because you're not suitable!

[cosmik debris]

11. Thank you, your answer was quite thoughtful

And it is not exactly fun I am looking for. But the role I play in jury selection and the role I play in jury deliberation need not be the same.

I consider jury duty to be an obligation of citizens and I want to fulfill my obligation. I am just tired of being excluded because I am different.

I don't know yet whether this will be a civil or criminal trial.

[Warpy]

9. Stand up for your rights

Jury pay sucks.

Last time I was called for one day service, between not swearing on the fairy tale and telling the truth about my wacky family, I was out the door by 10 AM.

[cosmik debris]

13. I'm not in it for the money

I am retired. It is no inconvenience to me, and it is an excellent opportunity to serve my community.

And as I said before, standing up for my rights gets me nothing--no rights, no standing.

[Warpy]

16. Ah, I was still working and "lucky" that my jury duty day

was on my one day off that week. Getting the hell out of it was a pretty high priority.

I would think that performing this service to the best of your ability would entail being truthful at all times. Tell them that you will affirm that you are telling the truth, but that you don't require or want a book of fairy tales bible.

I'm retired, too, and this is how I intend to handle it.

[beam me up scottie]

12. If you swear to a false deity and do sit on a jury can any subsequent decisions be overturned?

Can a defendant or plaintiff appeal a jury's decision based on one member's disingenuous oath ?

[moggie]

14. How could they prove you were an atheist on that day?

"I was an atheist before, but, gosh, I was so impressed by the gravity of the oath that I converted on the spot. Sadly, I was tempted back to my baby-eating ways later".

[beam me up scottie]

18. Well, there is that.

If cosmik wanted to be a martyr for the cause he could go to the press and raise the question after the fact.

Think of the headlines:

"Baby Killer and Sadistic Cannibal Goes Free Thanks To Texas Atheist"
Were they in on it from the start?

Tune in tonight as our intrepid reporter Biff Buffington risks his life by entering the Atheist Compound to get an exclusive interview.

[cosmik debris]

20. Actually I didn't plan to mention atheism at all

My plan this time was to assert that "my religion beliefs prohibit me from taking religious oaths or oaths on the Bible"

If they asked me what religion I was, I would say "right now I am a Hindu, but in five minutes I will be a Whirling Dervish. On Tuesday I will be a Christian in the morning, but Jewish in the afternoon. Evenings are set aside for Animist religions...let me check my schedule...If you want a Muslim, see me on Wednesday. But only in the morning. I'm Shinto in the afternoon."

Then I would not only be excused from jury duty, but I would get a delightful contempt citation to boot!

[beam me up scottie]

21. I wonder how many jury dodgers wish their state had the same requirements as Texas...

Modem Butterfly once suggested that believers wear a t-shirt proclaiming that they are an atheist for a day to see how people would react.

Could be a Get-Out-of-Jury-Duty-Free card.

[cosmik debris]

22. I had the option of claiming an exemption

If I am not "of sound mind and good moral character".

I would have said that I am an atheist and we all know atheists have no moral standards.

I'm sure it would work, but I don't like the idea of the government have a record of me ADMITTING that I am not "of good moral character" even if it is a spoof of the system.

It would have been even more amusing if they had denied the exemption on the grounds that atheists DO have good moral character! That would have been a precedent to cite!

[cosmik debris]

15. Good question!

The last time I was excluded I tried to seek out the defendant's lawyer to see if he needed grounds for appeal. But the defendant entered a plea bargain before the verdict, so there was no need for appeal.

[beam me up scottie]

19. If I was the convicted I would definitely use either situation.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[and-justice-for-all]

23. I would not swear an oath to an invisible non existent deity...

The Constitution is more than sufficient. There is no law that you have to swear to the improbable and it is actually unconstitutional for them to even have people swear on the bible. They are to not recognize the establishment of religion or restrict the free excerise thereof. It is pretty cut and dry...

When they removed you from jury duty because you did not swear on the babble, it was there way of saying that you are morally inferiour to those with invisble friends. What a crock of shit that is! More people who believe in gawd are incarserated than those who do not have invisible friends. Believers make up 98% of the prison population where as only 2% will be nontheist. So who actually has the moral high ground?

[Rhiannon12866]

25. I was called for jury duty and nobody made me swear on anything.

I just had to sign in. I think that it's the witnesses who have to swear on something, but they didn't in the trial I attended. Or presidents, and we have seen where that got Bush*...:-(

[RebelOne]

26. Same here and I'm in Georgia in the Bible Belt.

[Rhiannon12866]

27. Thanks. I'm in NY and I was just expected to show up.

I'm wondering if it's different in different states, but you and I seem to have experienced the same drill...:shrug:

[cosmik debris]

28. Texas is entirely different

I'm on lunch break now, but already TWICE today I have been asked to take an oath ending in "so help you god"

Twice I have stood mute.

I informed the first judge that I do not take religious oaths and he said "OK".

I haven't had a chance to inform the second judge, but I will.

We have a wild card in our deck though. There is a Mennonite in our jury pool and she refused to take the religious oath too.

I will fill you in after the selection process is complete.

[Rhiannon12866]

32. Yikes! And I'm sorry!

Though it actually sounds, from what the judge said, that this is just a formality. Best of luck to you, and hoping that they'll just let you go home. I didn't get selected and the elderly man who I was sitting next to expressed such strong opinions that they sent him home, too. :hug:

[Deep13]

29. Ask for a secular oath.

The courts I have been in swear under penalty of perjury.

[cosmik debris]

30. See follow up in R/T n/t

[JNelson6563]

31. "Yes, so help me Bob"

and then wink and smile. :toast:

[enki23]

33. sounds like they probably won't. if they did, and you protested, well...

that would probably be one good way to get out of jury duty.