On Secular Fundamentalism

[Lost-in-FL]

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/07/8139/

Sorry if this was posted before but it is the first time I read it. I am by no means an intellectual but I would like to say that I utterly disagree with Chris Hedges on this essay. Two points from his essay I disagree strongly (not like they are the only ones I disagree).

"Those who insist we are morally advancing as a species are deluding themselves. There is nothing in science or human history or human nature to support this idea. Human individuals can make moral advances, as can human societies, but they also make moral reverses. Our personal and collective histories are not linear. We alternate between periods of light and periods of darkness. We can move forward materially, but we do not move forward morally. The belief in collective moral advancement ignores the endemic flaws in human nature as well as the tragic reality of human history. This belief in inevitable moral progress, whether it comes in secular or religious form, is magical thinking. The secular version of this myth peddles fables no less fantastic, and no less delusional, than those preached from many church pulpits."

If you look in our past history, we have come a long way morally even when there are areas we need some improvement. Slavery and women status beneath that of men to give an example were moral issues which secularists helped eradicate while xtians used biblical explanations for their practice. So is he saying that because we are humans we must accept defeat? That we should just stand with our arms crossed?

"The belief that science and reason will save us makes it possible to ignore or minimize these looming catastrophes. We drift toward disaster with the comforting thought that the god of science will intervene on our behalf."

I don't think so. I think we should change "science and reason" and "the god of science" for "xtianity" and "Jebus'. I think it is mostly christians who close their eyes and expect god to solve their problems. I could go as far as saying that fundie xtians think that global warming is the beginning of the apocalypse, something we all should expect and embrace. Maybe progress contributed to the pollution in the environment but it can also help placate the effects. This makes no sense to me at all. This guy is delusional.

[onager]

1. And where are religion's moral advances?

(Hi all. I was on the road most of this week without Internet access. Rumors of my death etc. ...)

"This belief in inevitable moral progress, whether it comes in secular or religious form, is magical thinking. The secular version of this myth peddles fables no less fantastic, and no less delusional, than those preached from many church pulpits."

But that belief is practically the whole basis for religion in the first place.

Why are religionists always allowed to get away with this one?

Unlike science, religion certainly DOES make claims about improving moral progress. At least two of the major monotheistic religions specifically claim that if everyone simply "believed" their dogma, evil could be virtually eliminated.

Xianity has had 2 millenia to prove that claim and Islam a millenium and a half. For hundreds of years Xianity held a virtual monopoly on moral teachings in the West, and Islam has the same virtual monopoly to this very day in a large part of the world.

If religion had any basis in reality, by now we might expect to see at least one place on Earth where all this religion had actually made a difference. But we don't.

Some people claim Saudi Arabia has almost eliminated crime, but that's not necessarily the result of moral teachings. It's the natural human fear of having various body parts chopped off by the state executioner. And that society isn't crime-free anyway. I've lived there. If you knew where to look, drugs, prostitution and just about anything else was readily available in Saudi Arabia. But you did have to carefully dodge a lot of ex-convicts brandishing camel sticks and screaming Koranic verses. They belonged to the matowa, or Religious Police.

In short, religion has been a huge failure in the one area where it claims the most expertise. But none of these experts ever seems to notice that.

[cosmik debris]

2. Evolution v. Development

Evolution implies that the entire species is advancing. This would mean that Hitler was more moral than the Pharaohs. But that is not the case.

Our species is NOT advancing. We see that some members of the species are more inclined to those moral values you might call "better", but there is no evidence that they are improving the species as a whole.

Also, evolution is a response to external natural situations for the purpose of survival. There are no external natural situations motivating moral changes in humans.

I believe the term evolution is mis-used here. Development may be a more accurate term.

[and-justice-for-all]

3. fuck Hedges...

There is and never has been a such thing a secular fundamentalism. Speaking up and out does not make one a fundamentalist, Hedges seems to have this idea the just because one states their position they are a fundamentalist. It takes more than speaking up/out to make someone an fundamentalist.

Again, this is a term that was adopted by Irish Protestants to show their literal biblical belief. Hedges is trying to put the position of NO BELIEF in with Belief and claiming that neither side is different from the other, that is a false statement.

"The belief that science and reason will save us makes it possible to ignore or minimize these looming catastrophes. We drift toward disaster with the comforting thought that the god of science will intervene on our behalf." :eyes:

Belief, again Hedges changing the what words really mean to sell his bullshit. I do not have any "belief" in Science, I do not worship it or pray to it nor is there a gawd of science. I do not 'believe' that Science and Reason will save us, but it will in fact, when left unhindered, make our lives better.

Sell that bullshit Hedges, there is no gawd of science, stop lying and park your snake oil wagon.

[Lost-in-FL]

4. IMO The problem with us progressives is...

that we are afraid of speaking up against others because we are afraid of sounding politically incorrect, of hurting others. Because we have decided not to speak out Xtians fundies now have a monopoly in religious and moral issues. Because Harris and Dawkins are speaking now against the dangers of religion, fundies attack back with bullshit books like this one and creating such crap ideas as Secular fundamentalism.

How can there be "Secular Fundamentalism" in government when atheist are discourage even by progresives of political participation? We do not even have basic rights of separation of the church and state! Just a couple of weeks ago we had Democrat Rep Davis in Illinois ridicule Mr Rob Sherman before a general assembly in the State House when he tried to speak against "Christian Fundamentalism" in the school system.

I don't know if this makes sense to any of you but if does to me. Secular Fundamentalism to me sounds very confusing because to me it is non existent. I was shocked when I even read the expression. I guess he must sell some books.