Religious Scientists

[lizerdbits]

I went out to dinner last night with a coworker and as often happens the topic of religion came up. I found out that the program leader for our group is very religious which came as a shock. Not just church but bible study during the week. I find it strange that someone whose career is based on logic can believe that strongly. I haven't discussed it with him, so maybe his wife is the main believer and he 'goes along for the ride' with her and the kids. After all, he is someone who's very laid back and does everything possible to nip any conflict in the bud so everything runs smoothly and everyone is happy, so maybe he does the same thing at home. I guess the fear that causes non scientists to believe trumps years of logic and evidence based training and/or he was indoctrinated young. :shrug:

[YankeyMCC]

1. I've learned to accept that

many scientists and engineers are religious. But I too don't fully understand it, I think I can understand someone believing in a god or something supernatural but some are very religious even fundamentalists.

And I remember before I came to accept this, my civilian boss in the Air Force engineering unit, someone who was supposedly an engineer turned out much to my surprise to be a fundamentalist xian who told me how he had to explain to his kids that they would hear all sorts of non-sense in school like - Evolution.

My mouth dropped open, I didn't know what to say to that to my boss no less.

How could an engineer reject evolution? Was all that went through my head and this was way before I really embraced my atheism.

[lizerdbits]

2. It would be interesting to ask him about evolution

though I probably won't. He's been working with primate disease models for decades so he's well aware of our genetic similarities to them. That seems to me, from a life science perspective where evolution is part of the curriculum for years, a little different than an engineer where (and I'm generalizing here based on my sister and BILs experience since they're engineers) your undergrad life science requirements is maybe 1-2 semesters of general biology if that. If that's the case you can probably 'deal with' the evolution for tests for a couple semesters as opposed to having it be a core part of your 4 years where reconciliation of fact vs. faith would be more difficult.

If you (or other readers) are an engineer input on my generalization is welcome. :) I just got back from working out so I'm just kind of in rambling mode.

[YankeyMCC]

5. The amount of life-sciences may be high

actually I had nothing more than basic chem no life sciences in my Electrical Engineering undergrad. This guy was also a EE so I assume he got about the same. Other programs may include a bit more those along the lines you say.

But it wasn't really that I think engineers get training directly related to life sciences. Yes I agree it's a bit more in your face for a person who works and has studied such things but my thinking was more along the lines of how can a person trained in logic and generally well versed in science, and who relies on the technologies not just for daily living but also for his livelihood that science in general has provided...how does a person with that sort of training and exposure in logic, technology and science in general not see/accept something like evolution?

Just weird, but since then I've learned more I still don't fully understand but at least I accept I'm going to run into it from time to time.

[Warpy]

3. It's not just indoctrination

although indoctrination comes into play when he discusses particular dogma.

What most believers have that we don't have is an area of the brain that tells them there is a another presence in their immediate vicinity.

Belief is hard wired. There is no way for us to understand it just like there is no way for them to understand its absence.

[FiveGoodMen]

4. But I used to feel something like that presence and now I don't.

I think that particular brain disease can be killed.

[Warpy]

6. Possibly

because a lot of Holocaust survivors lost all faith in benevolent gods, along with most Europeans who had seen war on their soil.

[Duppers]

15. I've read that too

I think a scientifically educated person would evaluate or reevaluate their illogical perceptions.

After that neuroscientist Jill Bolte Taylor had her stroke and realized her 'new awareness', she wrote: "I actively scanned my reservoir of education in demand of a self-diagnosis. What is going on with my body? What is wrong with my brain?"
She writes of her experiences, not in terms of a supernatural experience, but in terms of an altered perception and new awareness. It would not differ greatly from someone who experienced a change in perceptions, emotions, and awareness under the influence of psychedelic drugs. But a truly logical, deep-thinking scientist would not attribute these perceptions and emotions to any supernatural god.

I think "belief' is just a wide spread, culturally contagious, culturally sanctified pathology.

[TZ]

7. One of our PhD's is not only religious

but a fundamentalist...You should hear the nice things he says about Bush...:puke:
Boy was he shocked one day when I told him I was an atheist..(I was bitching about work and he said that having faith in God would help me....)
Also remember our friend Neil? Biologist who was also an evolution denier..told me it was cause Carbon dating was "unreliable"

[lizerdbits]

8. I referenced Neil in a Lounge thread

about spam at work. Remember all those RW chain emails he'd send that had been debunked by snopes 5 years earlier? And the whole company would fail due to god's wrath since after the takeover they had domestic parter benefits. PLEASE let one of his kids be gay.

Went a little OT there. :)

When I was severely depressed as a teenager someone advised my mom to take me to church. Good thing those years of catholic school had sent them running from organized religion or I would never have received real treatment and probably wound up killing myself.

[Deep13]

10. "Biologist who was also an evolution denier"

That's like saying he's a Black Klansman.

[Duppers]

16. idiots can be graduated PhD

at some schools. Seriously. A number come to mind.

[Evoman]

9. I only know one scientist at the university who was really religious...a grad student.

Most of the scientists I know are either atheist, deist, or (if religious) pantheist. If any are religious, I sure as hell don't know it. Of the ones I do know, only two or three may be christian, but only that grad student is really fundie religious.

And boy is he a doozy. He was incompentent and hard to get along with. He was opinionated, but very ignorant. Basically, he was a shitty scientist. His lab mates always bitched about him, because he would never get anything done and he would only screw things up. I also heard from my supervisor that his thesis was terrible and sent back to him for major revisions. If he does graduate, it'll be a mercy pass.

Unlike some people, I really do think that religion affects your science. I'm not terribly convinced that you can be a good biologist and take religion seriously. A Christmas/Easter christian who otherwise doesn't take the bible literally or seriously..yeah, fine. Maybe even religion is somewhat compatible with physics or chemistry, I don't know.

But if you don't "believe in evolution" and your a biologist, well then...you are a really shitty biologist.

[TZ]

11. Not necessarily

The PhD I work with is a REALLY good scientist..We are talking about molecular biology here..and validation of bioassays..I think you can do that without your religion getting in your way. Also..He is from Africa and I get the impression, no matter what some people think..the grad school he went to there was everybit as good (or better) than here.

[Evoman]

12. Well...I just wonder how much better he could be if he wasn't religious.

who knows though. Maybe your right.

[Duppers]

17. ...

"Maybe even religion is somewhat compatible with physics or chemistry, I don't know."

Not compatible with physics at ALL.

If you'd like an in-depth discussion, I'll turn the keyboard over to my son. :)

[Midwest_Doc]

13. Compartmentalization

In psychology, it is a common defense mechanism. The ability to fully separate various aspects of one life to the extent that there is no intellectual or emotional connection between the "compartments".

[chicagomd]

14. In addition,

as has been noted numerous times before, science is a methodology, not a system of beliefs. Someone could be excellent in the application of that methodology in a certain field to test a limited number of assumptions, and then be blind or unwilling to apply that same methodology to personal faith.

It is an intellectual disconnect, but it is understandable at some level. I certainly don't apply rigorous scientific principals to EVERY aspect of my life.

[Duppers]

18. bingo

But compartmentalization is a form of mental illness, especially when taken to extremes, is it not?

It's a 'coping' mechanism, not a 'dealing-with' mechanism.

[moggie]

19. I suspect we all compartmentalise to some degree

It can be a problem when taken to extremes, yes, but in a milder form it's a normal part of life. For example, the "willing suspension of disbelief" which you indulge in when reading a book or watching a film is a form of temporary compartmentalisation, so you can simultaneously hold the concepts "elves don't exist" and "Legolas will save them!"

Perhaps the ability to compartmentalise is necessary for theory formation. If you believe that "x is true", you can nevertheless think through the implications of "x is false" by creating a temporary compartment for that and seeing where it leads, without your brain censoring it out of existence (or exploding in a shower of sparks like a bad SF robot faced with a paradox).

[Duppers]

20. touché

excellent points.

I compartmentalize death, my own especially, every day. :)