Wolfie...what do you think of this?

[Berry Cool]

Can you even comment? (I'm sure there are things you simply cannot say, and I understand that.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3232633

[WolverineDG]

1. She's full of it

How can she call herself a Constitutional expert when the actions of the state clearly violated the 4th & 14th Amendment rights of the parents & the children? Usually, the State cannot take action over a person unless they have been named in a lawsuit.

That plus the State likely knew the phone call was bs, since it was traced to Colorado Springs AND the Rangers had left to go speak with the alleged prankster the day BEFORE the hearing started.

dg

[Berry Cool]

2. I had a feeling you'd say something to that effect

I need to read up more on all of this. I really don't even know that much about it, in part because my biggest source of news is Keith and he hasn't even touched upon the subject. I get the impression he doesn't think it affects as many people as the topics he chooses to address.

[WolverineDG]

3. Probably because the State is depending on salacious headlines

to make these people look like monsters. Some may be, but not all of them.

Please note that this scholar is not coming apart at the seams over Miley Cyrus' photos in Vanity Fair, which were taken with the consent of her parents. Where's CPS with its SWAT team & tanks?

dg

[Berry Cool]

4. Now THERE is a pathology to figure out, for sure.

I saw that on Dan Abrams. What the...? :shrug: And the video with Billy Ray, if anything, made it even MORE creepy. They looked like lovers. Yecccch!

When you say these people aren't all monsters, are you speaking of the men? I don't get the impression the women and children are monsters at all...just sheltered and isolated and living in a world in which their sense of "normal" is very different from what the outside world considers "normal."

[WolverineDG]

5. I've only interacted with a few of the men

since I'm mostly dealing with the women & children. I can't really comment on them. But the one young man I have spoken with (his wife testified in court, so we spoke with him when he showed up at the courthouse) comes across to me as a young, concerned, loving husband & father.

Oh, & this just in:
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9133640

What? The arrest warrant on a perv was cancelled????? :wow: Won't someone think of the children? Oh, better yet, please don't. Babies & toddlers keep getting taken to the hospital because they are failing to thrive away from their mothers & they don't want the public to know about it. (How about that one from the DUH file? even CPS' own expert said this would happen.) God help the State of Texas if these babies start dying. :cry: Please send prayers to them so they can get healthy.

dg

[Berry Cool]

6. In general it's a bad idea to just swipe babies away from their parents

especially when very young...and it would seem to me that a blanket suspicion of "possible abuse" against a group this large would have ample opportunity to unfairly yank a lot of unhurt kids out of the arms of a lot of un-guilty parents and cause a lot of trauma...but then, what do I know?

I am no fan of the lifestyle of these people, but it seems to me there's got to be a better way to deal with this situation than just pulling kids out of their mothers' arms.

[WolverineDG]

7. Here's the kicker

I'm about 70 pages into Carolyn Jessop's book Escape & what she describes sounds to me like everyone has liberty to beat women & children on a daily basis for whatever reason. Okay, fine, if that's how these people act towards their women & children, how come no one's yet seen any sign of bruises, black eyes, broken noses, head trauma & other injuries associated with physical abuse on that level?

Someone's lying.

dg

[Berry Cool]

8. I guess so.

Just saw another post, I think it was in GD, claiming that all FLDS parents are abusive. That the men abuse the women and tyrannize them so that they both abuse the kids. Jessop's word was taken for this, and so were the media reports of broken bones. In essence, Texas was praised for going in there and rescuing those kids from hell.

I guess what it comes down to is that I appreciate the statements of an eyewitness because otherwise I would have nothing to go on learning about this other than the stories that are being told. And yes, indeed, the story that is being told is that life in this group would be hell on earth for any woman and any child.

I don't think we have heard the whole story, but it would be nice to think that we could actually at some point learn the truth.

[WolverineDG]

9. Start asking where the black eyes, broken noses, bruises are

& see what happens. Some folks on DU don't like it when you start asking hard questions like that.

dg

[Berry Cool]

10. Some are saying their long sleeves and skirts cover it up.

I'm assuming you have seen their bodies and can testify that that's not true?

I'm honestly seeking to know that. Same with the kids.

[WolverineDG]

11. Long skirts & sleeves can't cover up black eyes

:eyes:

No, I haven't seen their bodies, but I have seen CPS reports where the worker examined the child & reported no bruises, markings, etc.

dg

[Berry Cool]

12. They're saying lots of the women wear sunglasses.

This, of course, is all being said by people who are not on the scene and are just reporting what they have read. That's why I ask you.

[WolverineDG]

13. Of course the women wear sunglasses

Why does anyone wear them? I didn't see very many of them wear sunglasses, though, but the one I distinctly remember who did, had glasses that looked prescription. Face it, Berry, it's a witch hunt. Everything they do or say has some kind of negative connotation to it--they're brainwashed, they're monsters, they're stupid, whatever.

dg

[RevCheesehead]

14. If only they used the same diligence on the * cabal...

...especially the mighty midget (Delay) and the ex-gov who is busy screwing the country.

Keep up the good fight, Wolvie. :hug:

[WolverineDG]

15. Thanks Rev

I can't tell you just how much I love it when armchair quarterbacks on DU tell me I don't know squat about the situation. :eyes:

:hug:

dg

[RevCheesehead]

16. Oh, believe me...

I've been called a delusional believer of fairy tales by a certain non-religious group of people here.... :eyes:

To quote The Lady Chablis:
"Two tears in a bucket...
... motherfuck it."

[Berry Cool]

17. LOL.

But see, Wolfie, that's what I find so interesting about this. We have people on DU who are only reading about all this in the paper telling you they know more about it than you do. Interesting phenomenon there. Tells us a lot about DU in general. I'm inclined to take the word of a person who's actually seen what's going on over someone who's just reading or hearing about it long distance, so I'm going to you for a reality check.

Poor Rev. You have to deal with the religion-haters all the time. It's just amazing the lack of respect some atheists here have for believers, and yet they cry bloody murder if anyone questions their disbelief. They get furious at the thought of some fundie thumping a Bible at them and telling them they're going to hell, but they treat you as if, should you believe in anything other than no gods, no faith and that when you die you go into the ground and that's it and you're done, you are just a stupid delusional ninny.

Ah yes, even when it's not GD-Pee, it can be annoying as hell!

[WolverineDG]

20. I hereby dub thee "Honorary Texan on DU"

We're about as welcome here as you religious folk. ;)

:loveya:

dg

[RevCheesehead]

21. One of my good friends from seminary is a pastor in Texas.

She gave me a "Don't Mess with Texas" bumpersticker, which I promptly put on my large picture of Jesus. :)

[bunny planet]

18. Hey, I'd love to catch up on your original threads on this story Wolvie

I've been away from the clubhouse and I follow that you've been working up close and personal on this situation but is there a first post you made here that I'm missing, I searched back through the Countdown clubhouse threads but maybe its in some other part of DU. I could only find as far back as the thread titled 'I'm going back to West Texas' here. I know I'm woefully inadequate at using the DU search tools, maybe I'll give that another try. It is fascinating to get your inside perspective on what's going on.

[WolverineDG]

19. I made a few attempts at reason in GD & LBN

but to no avail. The witch hunters don't like it when you bring logic (& the Constitution) to their burning-at-the-stake party.

dg