National pasttime: backseat-driving other women's lives

[Ellen Forradalom]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7099098&mesg_id=7099098

[Chovexani]

1. That thread is disgusting

But par for the course.

[ThomCat]

2. Wow. There is a lot of judgement crap on that thread

and a lot of people pulling shit out of their asses to fling onto this forum. x(

[Ellen Forradalom]

3. So many women love to pull the BAD MOM dagger on other women

You went back to work after the baby was born! You stopped breastfeeding or didn't breastfeed at all! You're not married to the kids' dad! You're too young! You're too old! You have too many kids, not enough kids, no kids at all! BAD MOM BAD BAD BAD!

[Chovexani]

4. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't

I am childfree which of course means I am selfish and a bad woman.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

8. Oh yes. You and I wear a coat made of Dalmatian puppies.

Years ago, before I met my wonderful b/f, I took the eharmony assessment. I wasn't aware at the time of the company's religious character, but I did realize pretty quickly that my being a. non-religious and b. not interested in procreation put me in some kind of serial killer category. Luckily, it was a free trial so I didn't end up paying to be "rejected by eharmony".

[Ellen Forradalom]

9. What's with the obsession with procreation anyhow??

It's not like the species is in imminent danger of extinction.

I had a son myself, but it would never even cross my mind to urge others to have kids. No goddamn business of mine.

[bliss_eternal]

11. Good question.

I wish I had a viable answer. I'm not sure if it's because...

1)..."they" were pressured (so they are just doing it because it was done to them).

2)...has something to do w/religion....:shrug:

3)...misery loving company.

I'm sincerely NOT trying to be facetious with #3. But it seemed most (if not all) the people we knew that had kids, few seemed happy. They just seemed to do it because it was expected (among other truly disturbing reasons which I'll spare everyone).

But I do find it interesting that I personally experienced Wanda Sykes comic bit about friends with kids. Where they basically go on about the sacrifice required and then tell you, "but it's worth it" while lloking down and avoiding your eyes. :P

[Ellen Forradalom]

12. Well yeah it's a pain in the ass

no two ways about it. My son is now 8 and a very pleasant person to be around (a certain amount of kid behavior aside) . I don't regret it at all.

[bliss_eternal]

14. Reality vs. the "dream of parenting"...

I babysat (sometimes three at a time)and helped a relative with her kids during summers.
Those summers are some of my fondest memories. But as much as I enjoyed the experiences (and loved the kids I helped with) being a parent looked like a tough gig on a good day. I got to see firsthand what it was like when kids were sick, moody, throwing fits, uncooperative, fussy, etc. I saw it all--not just the "oh, aren't they adorable" moments. I was frequently the first person the kids saw in the mornings, and one of the last before they went to bed. I made breakfast, changed diapers, cleaned up puke, etc.

Maybe because of these experiences, I didn't maintain romantic notions about "babies" and parenting. I have an informed opinion of what it's like to be w/kids 24/7, as a helper--the reality is (of course) different from a parental standpoint. :scared: Based on this, I've opted not to join that club. ;)

I do get the sense that many honestly DON'T have a clue regarding the demands of parenting.
They are the ones that seem "surprised" by the "sacrifices and demands." They seem unable to see beyond what the media (and friends)show them about parenting. :eyes: They seem shocked when it's not fun, easy or even remotely enjoyable all the time.

Dh and I laughed our asses off when we got a whiny message from one of his friend's after they had their first. They were complaining about being up all night long with a crying baby for an entire week (colic). They also seemed stunned, like they had no idea it was going to be so challenging. We just looked at each other and said,"...well duh! What did they expect?" :crazy:

[Ellen Forradalom]

22. Ariel Gore in 'Hip Mama Survival Guide' wrote

"Having a baby is like suddenly getting the world's worst roommate, like having Janis Joplin with a bad hangover and PMS come to stay with you."

That makes it pretty plain. I suppose I owe her more than I realize.

[bliss_eternal]

28. LOL! Sounds like her book should be required reading.

;)

[Ellen Forradalom]

32. Oh, it is a great book.

Tells it like it is. It was very helpful to me when I was expecting, so much more so than those pastel soft-focus reverent tomes on motherhood.

[bliss_eternal]

33. Do you mean...

...(cue soft music and wind chimes)'What to Expect When You're Expecting?'
(hehehehe)

I wonder if it's books like these that started the trend of mom's stating their kids ages in months instead of years.
I totally understand it when the kid is still under a year. But I've had some from the mommy tribe tell me their four year old's age in months, prompting me to wonder what that's about.

I never know if it's part of what you spoke of (daggers and another way for women to "back seat drive" and one up each other's choices), or if they are sincere. :shrug:

[Ellen Forradalom]

34. If I ever hear someone state their 4 year old's age in months

I'll tell her my kid's age in binary.

[bliss_eternal]

36. LMAO--ROFL!

:spray::rofl:

I wish I was kidding. It seems a way for women with kids, to speak down to those without. But I could be wrong. Interesting that this division in women exists today. Child free women in days gone by were frequently the community midwives and healers.

[Ellen Forradalom]

40. The choice becomes the obligation.

In days gone by if you got married (and sometimes when you didn't), you had kids on Mother Nature's schedule, not yours. Nowadays it's assumed that you are in total control of your fertility--those with unintended pregnancy and infertility will tell you otherwise, of course--such that the presence or absence of children implies something about you.

[bliss_eternal]

5. Among other daggers...

(present company are exceptions to all of these examples, of course)

...married women tend to assume all single women want is to get married and thus daggers are tossed at single women. :eyes: I married at 30. So, I heard it all prior to marriage. People (men and women) seem to make a lot of assumptions about women that aren't married (no one wants them, set in their ways, too picky, too difficult, tramps, like to sleep around, etc., etc.)

...women w/children seem to enjoy pulling the dagger out for women who haven't had children.
The nanosecond I got married, no one could wait for me to procreate. :eyes: (Note--some are still waiting :P...most gave up. Ha ha! )

"When are you going to?" "Isn't your biological clock ticking, yet?" "How selfish! You AREN'T going to have kids?!" "Don't you like kids?" :banghead:

Per the example comments I've provided, all sorts of presumptions are made if you don't immediately procreate.
:shrug: What's up with that?

In a thread on DU where a married woman admitted she aborted (I'll try to find the link), the daggers were:

--What no birth control?
--What did your husband think?

It's just endless and beyond disturbing when I muster up the strength to think about it. :(

Oh and the examples provided in Ellen's post are so true! I've heard/seen so many of those.

[Ellen Forradalom]

6. Fuck 'em all

I swear, some of the worst misogynists are other women. Brainwashed footsoldiers for the patriarchy.

[bliss_eternal]

7. Insane isn't it...?

It's taught and it boggles my mind. When I think of all the women I've encountered in my lifetime with sexist ideas. :crazy: ...all the times I've heard (and seen) women buy into patriarchal myths (like women having a hand in abuse, rape, battering, etc.).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. That was true for me until I hit the magic age of 35

Before that the pressure was INSANE. People I barely knew felt entitled to weigh in on my life choices. But it seems like literally the minute I hit 35 it stopped. Abruptly. Which is no prob to me but I wonder why that is. Either people finally accepted that I wasn't going to follow the script, or I became officially non-viable as a woman.

[Ellen Forradalom]

13. Where are you meeting these nosy parkers?

Just shocking.

Not even my parents mentioned anything about kids until I started approaching 35.

[bliss_eternal]

15. LOL!

nosy parkers.

:rofl: love that expression.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

18. Co-workers and social acquaintances

None of my good friends question my choices. But as a younger woman, I was fodder for all kinds of speculation and commentary by random people. I often felt like I was a public commodity or a piece of livestock being measured at the County Fair. I've noticed, as you have in your OP, that people have no qualms whatsoever about backseat driving (love that phrase BTW) women's lives. What would be incredibly insulting to a man is just an expression of 'concern' if you are a woman. The only thing I consistently got more unsolicited comments about was my looks and my weight. I still get those but far less frequently. Again, I guess I'm no longer a 'hot item' now that I'm over 35.

[Ellen Forradalom]

20. Oh, my mother-in-law is a member of that club

I'm too fat, I'm too thin, I'd look great in a little Agnes B suit, blah blah blah blah blah. Ah shaddap. Christ, I wonder how it feels to have the social development of a seventh-grader at Medicare age.

[bliss_eternal]

26. LMAO!

Quote:
I wonder how it feels to have the social development of a seventh-grader at Medicare age.

:rofl:
I'm thankful I'd finished drinking my smoothie BEFORE reading that! Hahahaha!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

29. Obviously, my grandmother's clones have proliferated around the globe

My Grammy was born in 1910, was a flapper in the late '20s, was the first woman in her town to drive a car, and scandalized her strict Irish-Catholic family by running off to New York City to be a model and THEN marrying a Protestant! To add insult to injury, she DIVORCED my dad's father in 1933.

You'd think she'd have aged into a totally cool and radical old dame. Nope. She instead regressed into conservatism as the decades went on. She embraced strict Catholism and rigid gender roles. She loooooved Reagan. :puke: My sister and I were subjected to an endless barrage of criticism about our appearance and expected to maintain this ridiculously fussy hyper-ladylike decorum at all times. I wonder if she believed she was sparing us the social disapproval she went through for being so rebellious when she was young, though I seriously doubt she contemplated any of her beliefs.

Social development of a seventh grader, indeed.

[Ellen Forradalom]

31. Jeez, what the hell happened?

Did she see the Ghost of Speakeasies Past rattling empty gin bottles at the foot of her bed?

[bliss_eternal]

35. Ok, you need to stop...

...making me laugh today!

OMG...!!!

Quote:
Did she see the Ghost of Speakeasies Past rattling empty gin bottles at the foot of her bed?

:spray::rofl::spray::rofl:

[Ellen Forradalom]

41. Not until I make you throw up.

:-)

[lizerdbits]

23. You just gave me so much information on myself!

No one wants me because I'm a difficult, selfish, picky tramp stuck in my ways. :eyes:

Actually since I'd rather go hiking than on a date it's usually assumed I'm a lesbian (at least by my mom's conservative family) and just hiding my girlfriends away so they don't know about my disgusting lifestyle. I thought about paying one of my female friends to take to a family reunion just for kicks.

Those assumptions are why I don't date. I'm 33 so I must "have something wrong with me" to not be married by now (real reason is I didn't want to have kids and most guys I dated did and I wasn't changing my mind) and therefore am desperate so I will trick any available man into marriage since my clock is ticking and I need to have kids right away or I'll wallow in misery for the rest of my life. Maybe when it's physically obvious I'm not going to conceive I'll give it another try.

I have 2 nephews and my 36 year old sister is exhausted all the time. They're cute kids but after about half an hour I'm done.

[Ellen Forradalom]

24. Oh, you say "difficult, selfish, picky tramp stuck in my ways"

like it's a BAD thing!
:D

People who are not easily pushed around, mind their own interests, have discerning tastes, enjoy sensuous pleasures and live by what works for them lead much more satisfying lives.

[bliss_eternal]

25. lizerdbits...

I'm so sorry. It's one thing to have so-called friends, casual acquaintances and strangers toss out such assumptions--but when it's people you actually care about... :( :hug: That sucks.

But your family reunion comment made me lol.

Does your sister expect you to offer to babysit?

I read the most hysterical comments (more than once) from women (in some family magazine aimed at women)that were pissed off that their non-child bearing relatives (and friends) weren't volunteering time to care for their precious angels. :eyes:

Actually had a very interesting exchange with a woman about this. She was LIVID that her sister NEVER offered to sit with her kids. Her sister (a teacher), taught kids close to her kids age. When I asked her why her sister should want to spend her off hours working, you should have seen the look she gave me. :P

But of course, then I was just written off as the childless b word, with no compassion for the sacred order of "motherhood." :eyes:

[lizerdbits]

30. Luckily my sister doesn't expect me to baby sit

She was just fine with my idea to buy cute baby clothes and briefly holding cute baby without having to do the parent thing. She also thought it was funny that I told her I was allergic to all the compounds used to make diapers so can never touch one. Now she jokingly tries to hand me the younger one when he needs changing and I promptly run away. "Children are not for people who don't want to care for them" was her statement and I agree. My parents also share this view so I don't have to deal with it much since the relatives I spoke of I see about every 5-10 years due to being several thousand miles away. I'm really fortunate to have parents like that, a lot of people who don't want kids have to listen to badgering for decades on a regular basis. My mom's view was "If you have kids you don't want you'll just drop them off here and we're done with all that." Now once the kids can use the toilet Aunt Liz will gladly take them to the zoo, on a hike, or maybe a train museum. Just for a few hours though.


You don't happen to have a picture of that coworkers look do you? :)

[bliss_eternal]

38. You are lucky.

It's such an expectation from some, I've seen the issue addressed in advice columns. I don't get it. If someone isn't present for the conception, why on earth should there be an expectation that they babysit?

Ah--the look my coworker gave me. :P
It was a cross between a deer caught in the headlights and a "you have two heads" look.
Suffice to say she was pissed, that I dare to suggest her sister was anything short of evil and selfish.

How dare I empathize with someone I didn't know, who was so obviously heartless and cruel. So what if she's a school teacher? Clearly she should spend her entire working day with other's kids and then OFFER of her own free will, to sit for her nieces. Her sister was so obviously a terrible woman, and should have simply read her sibling's mind and volunteered to sit. :sarcasm:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

37. Slightly off that topic....

But how about when a man with children gets in a relationship or remarries and it's assumed that the woman will take on a Mommy role. That may happen over time but it shouldn't be expected. The Brady Bunch wasn't a freakin' documentary, people.

[bliss_eternal]

39. SO wrong.

Seriously, and it happens so frequently. We see books written (by women) on the topic. But no one even brings up the inherent issues of such a situation where the man is concerned. What's up with that? :shrug:

[bliss_eternal]

16. You're going to LOVE this one...! (puke alert)

I was just reading on a forum, where women seemed to imply an actress/celebrity was a "bad mom" because her daughter's hair didn't look "neat." :eyes:

btw, the actress's children are biracial w/excessively curly hair. Hair like this does NOT lay down or look "neat." I saw the pics and thought (OMG--soooo cute!) I was stunned seeing post after post asking what's wrong with that woman, taking those children out with their hair looking like that. One even suggested authorities should be called about the children't welfare. I wish I was kidding. :( :grr::mad:

Just supporting your point about women,"daggers" and the judgements tossed out about one's parenting--generally based on choices such women believe they themselves would not make. :eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. That is so sad

I'm not a mom so my knowledge of the experience of those who are is purely anecdotal and tangential, but I'm told that there is this strange competitive culture among some women with their kids. They have to have the cleanest, smartest, best-behaved, most acheiving, blah blah, kid on the block. I live in (well, near) an affluent area and it seems that kids are over-scheduled and pressured like all hell. And it's all to reflect glory on their moms.

[bliss_eternal]

27. That culture is disturbing ...

:scared: ...(what I've seen of it)and so hard on the children. It sometimes seems to extend beyond the kid's accomplishments, to other aspects involving the kids.

A woman called me once in tears, because another mother "stole" her babysitter, literally from her home while she was in the other room.

Another (former) friend was upset because of a situation where a mom seemed to be trying to "show her up" regarding "room monitor" tasks in their kids school.

I knew of an entire family (no longer friends w/) that competed with their siblings and in-laws BY having MORE kids. :eyes:
The grandparent's could have had one of those mcdonald's "now serving" counter signs affixed to their home--just changed to "now conceiving". They depressed the hell out of me, seeing kids used in some sick game for the adults to compete.

[Ellen Forradalom]

21. Nothing like spicing up your sexism

with a little racism!
:puke:

[BlueIris]

17. The author of that thread is someone I (thankfully) have on Ignore.

The responses to it here make me glad I 86-ed him/her a long time ago.

[WildClarySage]

42. Because parenting is just sooo damn easy...

some moms have all the time in the world to try to make it more challenging for others. :eyes:

[Ellen Forradalom]

43. Because so many people are parents

they think it makes them experts on parenting in general.

Reminds of what my spouse the architect says: because everyone lives in a house, he or she is automatically an architecture expert.

[Lilith Velkor]

44. I just realized something

This is what bothers me so much about the porn thing: that's also about backseat-driving other women's lives.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. Yes, if the women who work in porn are being judged

I don't think it is when porn itself is criticized. Very few feminists who are bothered by porn will castigate sex workers. Most women who are in porn, stripping, or prostitution are simply trying to make a living.

I will say I have some harsh words for the (rare) women who rise to prominence in the sex industry, who then act like there's little to no abuse and exploitation going on and that their highly exceptional success and autonomy proves that sex work is a great career opportunity.

I will also say that when it comes to the men and women who purchase and consume porn, I've noticed very little willingness among them to step up and volunteer to be a performer in some of the more hard core and degrading varieties that are very popular right now.

[Lilith Velkor]

48. You seem pretty self-satisfied about that

It's almost as if you don't know that you are attempting to backseat-drive the personal lives of others, using women in porn as objects of shame.

It makes objectification for the purpose of lust seem downright benign in comparison.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

46. I was just thinking about the most annoying form of backseat driving: Abortion

Nothing makes my head explode more than women who think they should dictate other women's reproductive choices. Particularly when said women have availed themselves of those choices. I have this one rather dimwitted friend. She still thinks Bush is "protecting our country from terrorists". 'Nuff said. Anyhow, she had a non-medically necessary abortion way back when but now believes that "too many women are using it as a form of birth control". :banghead: So what the HELL was SHE using it for?!?!

My nominee for Worst Fucking Hypocrite in the World: Any woman who believes that the only moral abortion is her abortion.

[bliss_eternal]

51. That one grinds my gears as well.

I've got to the point that I can't relate to women that think it's ok to dictate (and/or judge) other women's reproductive choices.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. Whoops, didn't see your post.

But yes, I agree.

[femrap]

47. I have really enjoyed reading this

thread. As a childless and never married (ick...you mean I have to do laundry for 2 now?), invisible woman of 54, I have devised various 'lies' for my life.

First, when having to fill out forms asking 'marital status,' I always mark W (widowed). This is advantageous in two ways: For some reason, you get some respect. And they have to feel sorry for you...which I don't care about but it means they have to be somewhat nice to you.

Then, I can make up all kinds of ways that hubby died, depending on my mood and the attitude I sense from the other person. What's the hardest thing to do is to keep from laughing. In fact, if you really want to get them....say your child and hubby died together! You have now justified yourself as a True Woman in their eyes.

I know that it's 'bad' to do this, but after all of these years of having to explain and justify my life, I just decided to have some fun with it. There's the one story about killing hubby, but it was justified homicide! You get to watch people's eyes get as big as saucers! But, it's so hard not to laugh....usually I have to excuse myself and run to the bathroom....they think I'm going to cry, but I just LMAO.

[Chovexani]

50. I like the way you think

:rofl:

[femrap]

54. Thank you!!!

As you can imagine, I don't hear that very often! lol

[Ellen Forradalom]

56. Isn't it fun to mess with people?

I admire your chutzpah, playing with their heads like that.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

52. It doesn't just end there. Several times I have seen "My wife says life begins at conception"

or "I have had a baby and let me tell you, life begins at 8 weeks"

:puke:

Great. You speak for all woman kind. What a horrid responsibility to bear.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

55. Ah yes. The Universal Applicability Of My Own Experience.

Knows no race, creed, or gender.