Regarding this whole Dean flap...

[dionysus]

From what I've read on these threads, it seems the majority of the people roasting Howard could care less about marriage issues, but are feigning moral outrage simply to pile on since they have hated him since the 2004 primary flame wars.

Do you guys have more importantt hings to worry about? Like war with Iran? Domestic Spying? Our countries descent into facism? Sheesh.

[AngryAmish]

1. I have always supported Dean

But his statements on the 700 Club sicken me.

[xultar]

3. Does he lose your support?

[AngryAmish]

18. I'm not sure

I'm not leaving the party (I have no choice in Chicago).

WTF was he doing on the 700 Club in the first place? Those people are sub-human scum.

[xultar]

22. Democrats do watch 700 Club. That is what he was doing there

getting them.

He shouldn't lose your support. I think we are too knee jerk to pull our support. Dean hasn't been one of my favorites but I can cut him some slack. Why can't you? HE is the leader of our party right now and he's got a tough job. I think we owe it to him to continue his support and support to other Democrats.

Gay marriage is a big issue for me. I'm not even a lesbian. Dean shot from the hip and said something he shouldn't have said. That is why every one liked him anyway.

[dionysus]

7. from what I read, he followed the quote people are slamming him with

by calling for equal rights (which people ommitt).

I couldn't care less who marries who, and Dean probably shouldn't have even been on that show to begin with.

However, you got people threatening to leave the party over this? I just think this is being blown waaayyyy out of porportion.

The GOP is on the ropes and we want to infight over this? Makes no sense to me.

[xultar]

2. People are willing to say it is o.k. for Dean to say one thing to one

group of people and say something different to another. They say it is because they wanna win.

But They aren't willing to cut Hillary some slack for saying Chimpy has charisma or allowing murdoch to throw her a fund raiser.

Again...

To convert the kool-aid drinkers you gotta get close enought to spike their drinks with the truth.

[dionysus]

14. exactly

they sure are the two most polarizing people on DU sometimes

[0007]

4. I certainly don't see no biggie. Why can't Dean talk to those jacks?

He knows the game. Give him some credit for having a brain.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. I've loved Dean. I was looking forward to president elect Dean

... in '08.

I just dropped Dean like a ton of bricks.

[bigscott]

9. i feel bad for you

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. I feel bad...

for the millions of Americans who can't get married because of bigots in office.

[hippiechick]

23. Bigots, huh?

Wow, you know Dr. Dean so well ... :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Well enough to tell.

He went and made it painfully obvious.

[Debi]

39. C'mon, you know Dean's support of equal rights for all

:sarcasm: Never did anything about equal rights in VT now, did he? :sarcasm:

[Joe for Clark]

6. Dean is a good man.

The DLC seems to be short of good men these past few years.

Who cares if Dean screws up a little from time to time.

Cause he tells the truth just as he sees it and he is right 99% of the time.

Joe

[Lusted4]

36. Dean was the *ush camps biggest fear that is why they

jumped all over that rally yell and reran reran and reran the shit out of it. They had nothing else on the guy. If he had won the primary their lame boy was toast. AND THEY KNEW IT.

[Joe for Clark]

40. I think you are exacly right.

Dean really did scare the gop -

Joe

[Lusted4]

44. And he still does

he's the gift that keeps giving.

[RagingInMiami]

8. I think it's just another example of the dems afraid to stand up

For what they supposedly believe in.

If Dean just comes out and says, yes, "gay people should be allowed to marry, now can we move on to another issue", then people will begin to get the message. The dems believe in civil rights for everybody. No questions asked.

Instead, he chose to talk out of his ass. And I seriously doubt he won any right-wing voters over. They will still look at him as a Vermont liberal.

And now that's he changing his opinion, it will go down as another "I voted for the war before I voted against it." He will be labeled as another liberal flip flopper.

[saltpoint]

10. Just one take here. I support Dean as Chair because I think his

instincts for a grassroots, 50-state strategy is healthy for the long-term prospects of the party.

Also I don't see that Dean's vision is mutually exclusive of the Emanuel/Schumer vision. In some details, yes, they differ, but the goal is the same, and it is over-riding.

Howard Dean is someone who can walk into a room and inspire people to get off their butts and work to build the party.

I'm for him.

[libnnc]

11. There's no "feigning moral outrage" here

As a lesbian who jumped for joy when Dean took over, I never thought he would give a hatemongering network the time of day that's all.

If Dean wants to make inroads in the socially conservative religous community, then why not focus on issues that ARE IN THE BIBLE like, I don't know...POVERTY?

Deflect the wedge gay marriage issue. Don't bring attention to it on their own network.

[incapsulated]

19. He did

From the same interview, (before THEY brought up the gay marriage issue):

“I'm a Democrat because of my values. My values include inclusiveness -- they include not leaving more debt to our kids than we have ourselves. My values including wanting our values to drive our public policies. My values include not having kids going to bed hungry at night. Now those are values that I bet I share with the vast majority of evangelicals.”

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/060510a.asp

[libnnc]

21. they brought up the gay marriage issue he should have refused

to discuss it.

[incapsulated]

28. I think he could have handled it a lot better

And obviously, he mistated the party platform. But refusing to talk about it at all doesn't make sense. If he was going to consent to be interviewed, he would not serve the party well by refusing to answer their questions. Why bother at all, then?

[libnnc]

29. it was an obvious trap question to which

at least in this political environment, there is no correct safe answer.

I just wish he could have avoided the whole thing that's all.

Excuse me for a second, I've got to put a fresh bandage on the gaping stab wound in my back...a lot of us (gays and lesbians) feel a little injured right now.

[incapsulated]

31. Well, I think even he wishes he hadn't done that interview now

I think he fucked up, though, rather than stabbed you in the back.

But, that is your call.

[dionysus]

20. I'm not talking about people who have a personal stake in this.

I'm referring to the people who have hated Dean since day one who are gonna use this to start days and days of flame wars, trying to relive the primaries. And then you have the people who post things like "fuck all the dems now" and denounce the entire party over what one guy said.

[incapsulated]

24. Actually, your take is wrong

I was here and in GDP when this broke and people were freaking out and threatening to leave the party.

This had NOTHING to do with old primary wars. The people who were the most angry were, not surprisingly, gay DU'ers, not "Dean haters".

In fact, many who supported other candidates were defending Dean, myself included.

I understand their anger, but not to the point of demanding Dean step down or voting third party or whatever.

[dionysus]

33. I'm not gonna link posts

but if you look over all the different threads you will see the usual bashers loving the opportunity to call him a moron or demand he step down.

[incapsulated]

35. I also note that the whole thing started in LBN...

And continued with an angry, now locked, thread by a gay DUer, and have read many, many posts by others stating the same feelings. I have no idea what all of them thought about Dean during the primaries. But it is unfair to simply dismiss this as a disingenuous attack on Dean by those who hate him anyway. The gay community here, not all of them, of course, but many, were honestly upset by this. Obviously, there will always be a few who are full of shit and using it as a way to go at Dean, but I don't believe that is the story, here.

[MuseRider]

12. I never cared for him but that is not

the reason I am in those threads. I usually ignore the HD threads but this was awful, a huge and hurtful thing and it has been brewing for a while now. NOTHING is more important that the day to day life and equality of a large group of people who are being legislated into the closet once again. What is it that people don't get about that? Everything else is important but this is as equally important. Under normal circumstances we could discuss this but there are so many outrageous things going on that we are all on edge but to push on a people that are already hurting and call that not as important as anything else? Hardly, and it really pisses me off to read this.

[Cherry Blossom]

15. Well, I certainly care about the issue

as a gay teenager, and I don't believe Dean's awkward contortion of the party's stance on the issue is doing much to foster support - if anything, the retraction makes it seem as though the party's stance is something to be ashamed of. The issues you list are important to me as well, but being able to marry or not is something I have a difficult time casting aside.

[dionysus]

37. I don't think the issue should be cast aside either

it was another one of Dean's not-so-crowning moments. But anyone who thinks he sold people down the river to appease fundies are overreacting.

[mdmc]

16. God Bless Howard Dean

:kick:

[madfloridian]

17. There is a post in GDP recommending the GLBT groups...

write letters to have him step down. This is an organized effort at a crucial time for our party. He is starting to make progress building the party.

It is an attempt to discredit him.

What I don't understand is that Bill Clinton and others don't even support civil unions and they are not being condemned so thoroughly. Dean never supported gay marriage, and he was honest about it always.

This on top of the DFA Alabama site being shut down, Will Marshall's blog, and articles about Rahm yelling and Schumer angry...all sort of make one wonder.

[lyonn]

30. Many Dems don't support gay marriage but do support

Civil Unions. So what is the problem? People need rights no matter what title the rights are given. This is the ploy of the repubs to get the dems all haired up. Too many of our rights are being swept away and we bother to get entangled in the rights of G/L? Of course they deserve their rights same as women, etc. Abortion rights and the right to teach sex education is going down the drain too. Privacy? The list is too long.

Edit: All the above rights are important to the Democratic party. Let us not ignore any and allow our leaders to chicken out but, there are hot botton issues that undermine the party and the repubs are ready to fire with their G/L issue to destroy all or far to many of All our rights.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

32. this thread wasn't for you Freepers

shoo

[RandomKoolzip]

34. Look out! Hillary just took your guns away!

What's that on the horizon...looks like a...BLACK HELICOPTER!!!! DUCK!

[MuseRider]

38. *snort*

Thanks for making me smile.

[garybeck]

41. I'm from Vermont and have some experience with Dean

I don't want to "attack" him but since I've lived with Dean for 10 years here I have something to contribute.

Dean has a very concrete history of talking the talk during the campaign and doing little during his term. In vermont we have to re-elect our governor every 2 years so patterns do emerge. One issue I can say quite a bit about is renewable energy. Every time he was facing election he talked extensively about the need to have more renewable energy in Vermont, as if it was one of the cornerstones of his plan for Vermont. However in his long tenure, we had very little support from the state government on renewable energy. The entire time he was governor, we never had any state funding for renewable energy projects. I actually remember going to the state house one day for a meeting of all the renewable energy advocates, and Dean couldn't make it to the meeting because he was busy. However, on the way to the meeting I noticed what he was doing instead - posing for a photo-op unveiling the design of the new Vermont postal stamp. It's sad and ironic that when his Republican successor took office, we finally got state funding on solar and wind residential projects.

Another issue that Dean has fallen short on is election reform. As head of DNC, it is his responsibility to make sure that the elections are open and fair, and that the candidates are aware of potential problems. He has shown a lack of knowledge and concern on this very important subject (recently saying that "the only machines we can trust are the optical scan machines" when we know that they are just as vulnerable as the touchscreen machines).

Considering the options, I still like Dean and want him to be a player, but I think that he is put on such a pedastal because of his anti-war stand, and his grassroots approach during the primaries.

[Odin2005]

42. Deen said what he had to say.

Saying you are for gay marriage is politcal suicide, end of story. The DUers wanting perfect purity on social issues are falling into the Republican strategy of encouraging divisiveness. Don't bash politicians for not being naive idealists.

[BlooInBloo]

43. Fight the fights that are worth fighting....

... not just the fights that you think you can win.

It's called "character".

The opposite, in this case, is called "cowardice".

Does that mean I now hate Dean? No. But my estimation of him is substantially lowered.