Why Kerry conceded ("We're in time of war")

[robbedvoter]

With all the threads about kerry's bravery in mounting a new campaign for the White House, I thought this little nugget pf info might be relevant.


http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/11/04/kerry_forces_planned_for_a_battle_that_never_was/
According to Cahill, the uncounted Ohio ballots, on which Kerry's fortunes depended, were not overwhelmingly from Democratic-rich counties and cities in Ohio, but rather dispersed relatively evenly across the state -- meaning a share of votes for Bush as well. And while a team of lawyers pressed to go to court on Ohio at 8 a.m. to challenge the state's vote-counting procedures, Cahill said, Kerry did not see the point.

''He immediately just decided that in order to go forward in a time of war, was not something that he wanted to put the country through," Cahill said.

Since the original link is dead, I shall post the link for my own archive
http://www.smartgroups.com/message/viewdiscussion.cfm?gid=988242&messageid=2227
so you can access the entire article.

I'll add to this a story aired on Ring of Fire (Air America), days after the concession. RFK jr was replaced by a black commedienne who was very angrily questioning Mike Papantonio on the concession.
Papantonio reluctantly confessed that he was one of Kerry's lawyers bound for Ohio and he and the rest were recalled from the tarmac that night by Kerry. It seems, they were told - and papantonio was meekly trying to defend this at the time - that contesting the results "would make us look bad - as some people thought"

[ProSense]

1. Kerry did go forward! That lawyer wasn't involved in the legal cases!

Today, Kerry-Edwards filed a document in support of that statement. Most significant, Kerry-Edwards also filed today a separate document in support of our motion for hearing with two critical attachments: 1) a declaration from Kerry-Edwards attorney Don McTigue regarding a survey he conducted of Kerry-Edwards county recount coordinators; 2) a summary chart of the results of that survey (which highlight the inconsistent standards applied during the recount).

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/2/24/183243/756

http://www.truthout.org/pdf/cobbbadnariktransfertatement22305.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardsmctiguedecl22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardsmotionforhearing22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardssummarychart22405.pdf (counting)
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardstransferstatement22405.pdf

More in in his own words:

http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/122105SenatorKerry.mp3

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/bits/2006_0517_kerry.mp3

[robbedvoter]

5. AFTER CONCESSION? BFD! HE GAVE UP MY RIGHTS!

Everything else - the 2008 campaign!

[saltpoint]

7. He most certainly did not. You can give ken Blackwell a call if you

want and ask him about voting irregularities in the process he was SUPPOSED to honestly preside over and did not.

Call him up early tomorrow and ask about Warren County, Ohio in particular.

[blm]

8. Who KNEW about election fraud after 2001 and chose to WATCH from the

sidelines instead of working to EDUCATE the party with all he learned since and strengthen the Dem infrastrusture that deals with the votes?

[MH1]

50. If you let someone else "give up" YOUR rights,

them you didn't deserve them very much in the first place.

[NoPasaran]

2. Contesting the results would have "looked bad"

Not as bad as LOSING!

"A time of war". What a pile of horseshit. As if while they were counting the ballots the Iraqi Army would have snuck into Washington D.C. and put Saddam in the White House.

[survivor999]

140. There is no real war...

No more than there is a was against cancer...

[ProSense]

3. Instead of complaining here is what you can do:

Outraged about the stolen election...

Write a letter to the media:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2658991&mesg_id=2658991

Contact your Senators:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

[robbedvoter]

9. Kerry& friends - the very last resource for stolen election activism

OK, maybe the one before last if you consider taking advice from W. I think it's sheer chutzpa from the guy who gave away our votes to tell us what to do.

[ProSense]

11. Write your Senators and the media! Stop complaining! n/t

[saltpoint]

12. You're a full citizen. Act like it. Act in support of a ticket that

sought to represent an America a damn site better than the one we got after BUSH cheated.

Put it where it goes.

Stop throwing stones at innocent people and blame the ones who are at fault.

[blm]

26. The guy who SAT ON THE SIDELINES SILENT FOR 4 YEARS knew it was going

to happen. And you APPLAUD that he did.

[saltpoint]

4. This is Cahill's take, right? We don't hear John Kerry's voice, but

Mary Beth Cahill's, and that's fine for the sake of a lone take, but not the whole story.

RFK Jr.'s piece backs up the widespread vote total aspect, just as a frame of reference.

For the damning points in RFK's piece, an extended and long-term investigation had to be done. It would certainly not have been possible within the margin of concession or no-concession in November of 2004, and in any case has not produced incontrivertible evidence that the Ohio election was stolen.

Yes many of us believe wholly and fully that it was. But as has been pointed out by many DUers before, the matter would have to be decided in a court of law, and the courts are very insistent on evidence. Circumstantial evidence alone -- even when it is overwhelming as RFK accuarately points out -- is not conclusive.

Kerry has indicated repeatedly and clearly that had persuasive evidence been in the hands of his campaign on Nov. 3 he would have proceeded to challenge the result of the Ohio election. Cahill's words, "He immediately decided..." are false. Corroborative reports from Conyers, Edwards, and many others indicate that just the reverse is true. There is every evidence that every possible path to a challenge was considered. Again: courts insist on evidence. They are inflexible on that count. Absent such evidence, Kerry's decision was inevitable.

[robbedvoter]

13. Matches his actions - makes them look "good" - his spokesperson

Had he acted differently, I would have had reason to doubt Cahill. But this matches Papantonio's reluctant admission and pretty much everything kerry did since. he treated this as his personal problem - call it a trial from God for him, John - never thinking of the millions who voted for him. It was all about him and his image.

[saltpoint]

14. Strongly do we part company. How the hell do you know what it was

about if all you're doing is taking MB Cahill's version of it as truth?

I wouldn't trust that approach if it was the last one in town.

Shame on you.

[ProSense]

16. "Call it a trial from God for him"? Wow! n/t

[saltpoint]

149. I'm not terribly religious. Let's NOT call it "a trial from God" for

Kerry.

Let's just not.

[blm]

6. It's brave to continue a LEGAL CASE when you have the math on your side.

It's foolish toTRY and make a LEGAL CASE with no hard evidence and the math completely against a legal case.

And if you want to compare bravery, robbed, why don't you use extensive senate records dealing with the same issues under the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES instead of pretending that Gore and Kerry operated under the same circumstances the day after the elections. You never acknowledge the MATH that gave Gore LEGAL RECOURSE and the MATH that gave Kerry no legal recourse to pursue.

[robbedvoter]

15. How about a popular case - we were on his side. Gore never had

activism support up to that point - Kerry undeservedly got unprecedented levels of enthusiasm. He squandered it - like the idiot he was.
Sorry, we needed a leader and got instead a lawyer. (2?)

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

19. Then you ASSUME that Gore would have led under the exact same conditions

Kerry had? What in their records of service leads you to that conclusion? You are welcome to list their chosen battles while both were in the senate togather at the same time.

[robbedvoter]

23. Not assuming. Gore's courage was limited - but was there AT THE START.

I admire him for starting to fight, I fault him for quashing the nascent popular movement - not a Gore fan either. Just stating there was a difference. I wouldn't want either man as president.

[saltpoint]

25. You hate Kerry, you're not a Gore fan. Wow. You're shit out of luck

these last two election cycles, aren't you?

[robbedvoter]

57. I don't hate Gore, I respect Clark , Conyers, Boxer, Barbara Lee &

the rest of The Florida 14 and a few others. But I agree - you are right for once I (and all dem voters) have been shit out of luck these past 3 elections considering that we've been robbed - and in the past 2 ones - the robbery was kept a secret.

[blm]

81. And what are they all saying about STOLEN ELECTIONS and the need to ban

electronic voting machines? I know Conyers said nothing could be done about 2004, just like Kerry believes, but what about the others and how are they taking on the issue of stolen elections?

[robbedvoter]

93. I have no "idols" - and their limitations don't make Kerry look any better

It's not them I gave my vote too. it's not them they sold me out. Had that been the case, the header of my post would have different - containing whatever name from that list aided and abetted the BFEE hide their crime.

[blm]

104. Here's an election fraud experts opinion on the thrust of your rant:

Posted by LandShark in another thread where you bash Kerry:


Key words in the OP include "LEGAL evidence", much different

than real evidence, very little is admissible to impeach vote counts, but variations from state to state.

There was some activity by Kerry after the election. Under-reported. Could have been more. Some Kerry spokespeople were unhelpful.

The candidate is one of the LAST people who will ever make FULLFORCE allegations because they will pesonally be made to pay a very high price for that by other side. That makes him very different from you and me, so I don't attach the same significance to measured words and actions from a candidate as I do from citizens who are much more free.

Kerry, in my educated guess as a lawyer, also had legal advice suggesting that the election challenge would, if made, send the country toward an abyss of uncertainty because of Bush v Gore 2000, possibly invalidating the election instead of reversing it, thus keeping the incumbent in until a new election anyway.

BOttom line: I don't find Kerry's this or Kerry's that to be useful indication of anything without a lot of explanation and context. This is supported by Mark Crispin Miller's post about a private encounter with Kerry saying it was stolen, followed by a public disavowal by Kerry's staff that any such thing ever occurred. I don't think Mark Crispin Miller just made up an entire story - but Kerry staff says he handed over a book, and nothing else basically happened.

Too much pressure on Kerry. False issue, like reading tea leaves to understand someone forced partially silent.

[saltpoint]

153. As per your usual in this thread, you distort what is in front of you.

You misstate my position. You're a propagandist. Your intent with your OP was to slam someone's character.

Admit it.

[derby378]

58. Hey, we had the chance to nominate Dean...

...before the DLC sent its shadow agents in to kill his campaign and prop up Kerry.

I supported Kerry in 2004. Worked harder for him than I did for any other candidate, including Dean. And I still say that Kerry let me down tremendously.

[saltpoint]

62. Be careful not to dabble in paranoid bullshit. Kerry won Iowa. John

Edwards placed second.

Your Dean did nicely overall and I love the guy, but he got his ass kicked.

His own internal polls showed the same as the Des Moines REGISTER a week out of the caucus, almost to the point, and it had NOTHING to do with the DLC.

[blm]

85. DLC did NOT prop up Kerry - they sure as hell didn't direct ANY money to

him and he was forced to put up his own money in the closing months of the primary.

Or did that fact not enter into your analysis?

[derby378]

142. Then please tell me about those 527s and the NATION account

Dean refused to kiss Al From's ring. I tend to trust The Nation as a source.

[blm]

143. Fine - but they didn't want Kerry - From HATES Kerry and always has.

If your theory was correct, then the DLC would have made sure Kerry's campaign was given the funds it needed in the most crucial time period - they did nothing and sent nothing for Kerry. He had to fund his campaign by putting his house up.

Their two preferred hopefuls were Lieberman and Edwards. From for Lieberman and Reed for Edwards.

[blm]

28. Name one Dem who would have eschewed the MATH to make a LEGAL CASE

that wasn't there to be made?

[robinlynne]

138. What do you mean it wasn't there? How do you know?

The provisional votes have not yet been counted. They are set to be destroyed this fall. THAT is an issue Kerry should be addressing head on right now. especially following the RFk article. The fact that he didn't (And those tiny little statements AFTER the inanuguration count as nothing.) is the republicans' biggest victory, and ultimately how they took power in 2004. At least in 2000 their theft was made obvious by the supreme court fiasco. Did you watch? Did you watch the supreme court break the law? not a peep in 2004. take it. take the country. I'll "look good".

[blm]

141. You are assuming that was the motivation - completely ignoring

a 35 year history of doing the exact opposite of what you claim and taking on battles that no one else would take at the HIGH COST of his political future.


No one has put forth anything Kerry could have used LEGALLY that day and the math wasn't there to support continuing. He didn't drop everything, he's still involved WHERE they had a case to make.

And NOW he's involving himself to get the machines BANNED state by state. You want to keep tearing him down and attacking his credibility when he's the only lawmaker we have who wants EVs banned?

[saltpoint]

10. You aren't really offering a nugget for relevance. You're throwing a

stone out of meanness.

Kerry is not to blame for your disappoinment. That election was stolen, and stolen in such a way that a sure-footed, informed legal response within 24 or even 48 hours of the results was impossible.

It's a cheap ploy to blame John Kerry for being the victim of felony voter fraud. I don't appreciate it because it questions my judgment as a voter and informed citizen, one who cast his vote very proudly for the Kerry-Edwards ticket.

Your little relevant nugget is not persuasive.

[robbedvoter]

18. Oh, I am mean to wittle Kerry! Bad, bad Robbedvoter!

How dare I bring FACTS about this visionless, self absorbed petty lawyer who hijacked the primaries, the activism resources only to shit on all of us while offering our votes to the fascists "because after all, we've all been at war with Oceania". I am so very, very mean - is my face red or what? I mean he so tall, and such nice hair and kills animals like a real NRA redneck and surfs like a God - who am I to not adore him?

[saltpoint]

21. No points for you there, sorry. Your post's sole intent was to slam

the Democratic standard-bearer for the 2004 election.

It is baseless crap.

[robbedvoter]

27. No points? Fersure I thought I get some! I am crushed!

Just like that? Demoted from the fan club of the "standard bearer"? (where's that standard now guys? The "values" people running with it? A bit low on irony, down at the fan clubhouse, arencha?

[saltpoint]

29. No points because your posts in this thread have been nothing but

negative. You came on here for the sole purpose of slamming John Kerry. You aren't asking for dialogue. You don't seek information. You are completely uninformed about the campaign. You don't appear to know shit about what actually happened.

You are WAY too quick to shove aside findings by RFK, Jr. in his piece and opt instead for any point of view more damning to Kerry.

You ignore the points raised in Kerry's defense and you're acting more or less like a 2-year old whenever you're challenged on points.

[robbedvoter]

36. Oh, but maybe a little gold star? An autographed picture?

When I say in my profile "still crying in my teacup" - I don't actually mean I am at some tea party. I am not here to be nice.
Selling our democracy is NOT nice. I wish my writing skills were better so I could be more "negative". Nuclear size negative!
:nuke:
Then maybe I can make an impression of your sunny devotion to any one pweson over the tragedy he help inflict on your country.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

44. Riight - cuz it I'm not with kerry, I MUST be GOP. Elementary.

As my love of democracy clearly suggests. Bingo! You found me - you little clever kerry fan!
been under cover here since inception of DU - just waiting for the moment to destroy the mighty Kerry...oh, wait, he's not so mighty anymore...Oops! Nevermind....

[ProSense]

45. No, but maybe for promoting lies you'd qualify! n/t

[saltpoint]

46. You might try standing on your own two feet, if you can get them out

of your mouth, and respond to the posters here who have presented evidence that flatly contradict your assertions.

Do that. It might be very illuminating for you.

[robbedvoter]

96. evidence Kerry did NOT concede WITHOUT a fight? Where?

Again, post sell-out rhetoric doesn't count.

[saltpoint]

100. I don't think you're in the position to tell John Conyers and his very

very able staff anything at all.

Wait. I forgot. You don't participate as one person in public discourse. You open fire on Democrats you've decided should take the blame for your disappointments.

See, that's where I went wrong. I thought you might have acknowledged the information posted in this thread alone regarding the Ohio election. But of course that was a vision awry & now I remember you just slam Democrats.

Kerry.

Edwards.

Gore, kind of.

It seems to be your long suit.

[ProSense]

24. Good question: Who are you? n/t

[robbedvoter]

30. ROBBEDVOTER - one of the millions your boy victimized

after we were reluctantly put in the situation of voting for the guy who has "no patience for those crying in their teacups for stolen elections". I held my nose and gave him MY VOTE.

I AM A VOTER.
WHO WAS ROBBED

I am the angriest DUer since this place was founded - for the angry robbedvoters of 2000 - it's the little fact Pitt forgot out of the history. I am one who didn't need to change user name after 2004.

I am the mourner for the American Democracy.


Nice to meetcha.

[saltpoint]

31. Well ain'tchu just extra special?!?

We're all duly impressed with your lone, singular suffering on behalf of American democracy.

No sale, ma'am. You are a full citizen and one of about 300 million or so.

Stop expecting special treatment or status and stop blaming somebody else for something he didn't do.

Your slam on Kerry was the sole intent of this thread, and it's all your work.

You should apologize.

[robbedvoter]

40. One of 100+ million or so Kerry voters. And all of them.

Nothing special about me -

I AM ANY OF THEM

But like your little idol, greater concepts elude you.

[saltpoint]

41. They do. I can barely function in the physical world.

It's real clear that anybody who challenges you is wrong and that you alone are right.

You are awfully nasty toward John Kerry. Sounds real personal.

[ProSense]

42. I'm one of them too! You are promoting lies! n/t

[robinlynne]

134. lone? There are millions of us who agree with robbedvoter.

Maybe you were just sitting on the sidelines in 2004?
We worked hard. We won that presidency. not for kerry. for America.

[saltpoint]

148. You may want to check your facts. Kerry was the nominee in 2004.

There are numerous sources to substantiate that claim.

It was in a few of the papers.

You could look it up.

[ProSense]

39. Kerry has never, ever said that! You are promoting lies n/t

[saltpoint]

43. Your quotation is inexact. You are using it to smear John Kerry.

Care to tell us why?

Are you doing it for sport, or do you hold yourself singularly aggrieved in the 2004 election?

In any case, it's slanderous.

[ProSense]

47. Fifth K&R here, exposing smear should be on the Greatest page! n/t

[saltpoint]

48. Have to agree. The OP's smear is not within zone. It's well beyond

a disagreement in ideology or observed approach.

It's smearing, and lots of it.

I'll vote also. Good suggestion.

[MH1]

52. I voted too...

with the little "A" link down there at the bottom of the post, to the left.

Does anyone else see a pattern here?

[emulatorloo]

145. You've revealed exactly what you are all about w this post

Very interesting.

[zulchzulu]

20. You cherry-picked a Cahill quote to continue the lie that Kerry gave up...

As for John Conyers, he has a different opinion:

"Fighting for Every Voter"

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me. As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes...

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me.

As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes. After the election, whether won or lost, many candidates leave the irregularities of the election behind. But we owe the voters more than that. When voters are disenfrachised, we owe it to them to seek justice and expose the truth. That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wrote to the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters.

- John Conyers

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000213.htm

Additionally, at the time, the evidence was not immediately there of a stolen election. Bush won the electoral and popular vote, according to the results. How you think Kerry (or anyone else) could decry those results is foolish...besides, conceeding a race is not legally binding.

[saltpoint]

22. Exactly right. Pertinent information, should the OP have the

self-respect to recant her ridiculous, inaccurate, and mean-spirited claim, you've provided a crucial frame of reference for her.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saltpoint]

34. Cherry-picking is an agricultural term that's been around for centuries.

Update your file.

Often used, too, for metaphoric speech to suggest highly suggestive, even rigged, selection procceses. Like your OP, for example. Splice a few lines of Mary Beth Cahill, shove RFK's piece out of the way, and post it on DU as a character slam. Pretend that it's a "relevant nugget."

Zulchzulu's information would benefit your cluelessness on this issue and others; you should graciously thank posters whose better view of events might enhance your own.

[saltpoint]

33. If somebody ever wants to know the scaffolding for writing propaganda

or base character assassination, I feel your post would serve as a very good model.

"Relevant nugget" my ass.

[pretzel4gore]

35. same crap, same bush....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/dec2002/gore-d21.shtml
snip>
For several months Gore had been aggressively preparing the way for a rematch with George W. Bush, making speeches on foreign and domestic policy, appearing on television interview programs, and conducting a national book tour with his wife. According to opinion polls, he was, by a wide margin, the first choice of Democratic voters to challenge Bush in 2004.But the critical constituency for a viable presidential run was to be found not in voting precincts, but rather in corporate boardrooms, network office suites and the top echelons of the Democratic Party apparatus. Among the few hundred individuals who really “count” in shaping American electoral politics, Gore was decidedly out of favor.

Their verdict was reflected in sluggish fundraising and what Gore associates called the “skeptical media coverage” of his book tour. The blow to Gore’s presidential aspirations was softened, according to press reports, by the former vice president’s new-found wealth, gained in part from a vice chairmanship at a West Coast investment firm.

In explaining his decision, Gore has offered only one political motivation—but it is a highly significant one. Referring obliquely to the 36-day battle over the Florida vote and the Supreme Court ruling that ultimately handed the presidency to his Republican opponent, Gore told his “60 Minutes” interviewer, “I think a campaign that would be a rematch between myself and President Bush would inevitably involve a focus on the past that would, in some measure, distract from the focus on the future that I think all campaigns have to be about.”

In other words, a second Gore-Bush contest would inevitably raise the overtly anti-democratic manner in which the 2000 election crisis was resolved, and bring into question the legitimacy of the Bush administration. In his desire to avoid such issues, Gore reflects a preoccupation of the entire ruling elite and both political parties.

<snip
it seems that truth and honesty are SOOOO toxic to the system that even OUR rep/candidates act like humpty dumpty's bodyguards when the fictions that america's 'at war' or the 'sacred trust' is in danger

[robbedvoter]

38. and the socialist worker has never been wrong on this, have they?

Listen, I an not devoted to any particular democrat - although I think Gore deserves more respect than Kerry - for at least putting himself out for something larger than his own image.
But to put in a thread about voting rhetoric about why elections are irrelevant to begin with, only goes to show how clueless you are. Not participating in the system makes you as marginal as your source and as logical as your username.
Sorry, I wasn't addressing the Nader reefer crowd. Was talking to people who actually are in this reality. Somewhat.
Thanks for widening the perspective though. The world of reality deniers is so much richer than I initially thought!

[Neshanic]

49. Incremental excuses are always entertaining. Can he list them?

By date, or reason, or venue, or by any other criteria?

[robbedvoter]

51. "it would make us look like cry-babies" Papantonio's words

after checking messages I posted at the time I listened to the Air America Ring of Fire - these were his exact votes as to why they were recalled from the tarmac.

[ProSense]

54. Your hero, sounds upset he wasn't involved in the legal motions filed n/t

[robbedvoter]

76. Far from a hero, while clearly a better man than Kerry.

I wanted to smash his head off when I heard him on the radio. Did I mention that the actual words were "it would make us look like cry-babies"?

[ProSense]

89. Cry-babies? Your portrayal is excellent! n/t

[saltpoint]

152. In defense of a U.S. Senator, what criteria are you using to determine

that one man is better than the other?

A voting record? Kerry's is pretty darn good.

Education?

Wealth?

Terrific Wife?

Height?

Penis size?

No. of flashy cars in the driveway?

Boss train set in the family room?

Well-behaved pets?

Give us the criteria you are using so that we can compare notes. Because on the surface of it, I'm inclined to dismiss your claim comprehensively as total bullshit.

[saltpoint]

56. Information, some of which has fed John Conyers' excellent

assessments of the Ohio election case, have been available in various sources, including right here on DU boards, for some time.

Ok, you missed them. That happens.

But when they're put right in front of you in defiance of the inaccurate claims you assert, and you ignore them petulantly, the fault is yours.

Your intent here was to slam Kerry. Admit it.

[Beelzebud]

53. MUST.. KEEP... POWDER.... DRY... AT... ALL.... COSTS!!!!!

MUST RESIST URGE TO FIGHT

[robbedvoter]

60. The Museum of Dry Powder will be grateful for this one day!

[ProSense]

63. So will the Museum of Whiners and Complainers! n/t

[robbedvoter]

65. Sounds like a "get over it" post - you're full of RW memes today

[Notoverit]

71. You rang? because I'll whine & complain about stolen elections till I'm

blue in the face. I'm not over it and proud of it. Unlike kerry, what's at stake is more important than how some chose to view me.

[ProSense]

75. Whining and complaining on DU is going to effect change. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1348184&mesg_id=1348211

[robbedvoter]

83. Again, I'll plan my activism myself - Kerry&bots not a source of wisdom

on stolen elections for the obvious reasons. Do you realize how arrogant this sounds from the man who gave away my vote to BFEE to tell me where to complain about it?

[saltpoint]

87. You might have to plan your own private activism. I absolutely wouldn't

want you on my canvassing team for Democratic candidates. You've pointlessly slammed at least two of them in this thread alone.

[ProSense]

74. There is an alternative

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1348184&mesg_id=1348211

[Beelzebud]

70. So to fight is to "whine and complain" now. No wonder we're fucked.

I'm glad the "whiners and complainers" didn't sit down and shut up in the 60's.

[ProSense]

80. You consider whining in a post fighting? Take real action:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1348184&mesg_id=1348211

[Beelzebud]

86. LOL You call that action?

Write a letter to the editor and write my congress critter?

LOL

How about John Kerry fight for the office that should have been his?

I can write letters to the editor, and write my "absentee landlord" congressman letters until the rainforests are gone. That won't change a damn thing.

I've written so many letters to the editor, and CALLED my congressman so many times, I'm done with that. It gets nowhere.

All you suggest is to whine to the media, and whine to congresspeople, both of whome, don't give a shit!

[ProSense]

91. Yes, you've moved on to whining on DU! n/t

[Beelzebud]

94. You don't know a damn thing about me. I spend a few minutes here a day

and sometimes I vent.

Excuse the fuck out of me.

I don't live on this website, and this is only a FRACTION of my involvment in politics.

[ProSense]

103. Whining or venting in a post, it's still not fighting. n/t

[Beelzebud]

139. My post referred to Kerry not fighting.

So all you are doing is a bunch of "blah blah blah".

[ProSense]

151. Your post referred to being done with contacting Congress.

Is there another legislative body in this country? You're done with writing letters to the editor. Seems to me you're the one that's all blah, blah, blah!

[robbedvoter]

88. W's accomplices in hiding the crime SHOULD NOT GIVE ADVICE

which some is self-serving anyway. Stop adding insult to injury.

[saltpoint]

95. You misstate the case. Do you just slam people? Do you have any other

interests?

Maybe bowling?

Falconry?

[ProSense]

97. Is posting lies going to initiate change? n/t

[saltpoint]

84. Quite a bit of distinction to be made between principled defiance in

Montgomery and Stonewall and shit-sniping on a DU board without facts.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saltpoint]

59. Ah, you don't really mean that.

Because it would be inaccurate.

And that would make you look foolish.

[ProSense]

61. "He does not deseve my waste of time to post..." Yet you posted! n/t

[robbedvoter]

64. As for Edwards guts - who's stopping him? Why isn't he speaking up?

Is he still bound and gagged since election night?
Did he ever utter the words "stolen election? Anyone?
I know he's revving up for another one - but, John - did you forget anything?

[saltpoint]

67. Thank you for including John Edwards in your character assassination.

You made a head-on run at John Kerry, but frankly, we were beginning to doubt your versatility.

And there you go, right at Edwards, almost on cue!

It may surprise you to learn that there are fans of both Kerry and Edwards here abouts. They're Democrats. We're Democrats. Is that a problem for you?

[peacetheonlyway]

77. I'm a progressive democrat.... I advocate FLUSHING OLD BAD DEMS

and putting new progressive democrats in office.

that is the only way to fix what's wrong with our government.
DixieCrats are all over the South, time to flush them
Zell Miller Democrats (Zealots) time to flush them
Libermann types, time to flush them and yes
Clinton/Kerry/Edwards centrists who listen to their consultants moreso than hundreds of thousands of citizen petitions or millions of citizens marching in the streets.. they seem to not listen to the masses when it's most needed...

no more putting up with lip service from Dems... 35 DEMS voted to confirm General Hayden.....they are complicit in the deaths of thousands of iraqis and the stakes are never higher to get rid of the old guard and put in the new....

I'm seeing John Bonifaz, and possibly 20 other election advocates running for office and getting on the ballot and that is where my money is going.... to building from the ground up a new democratic party that actually responds to the demands of its electorate....

not democrats like Kerry that decide for me with my fundraising dollars, a decision I don't sanction.......

[saltpoint]

92. So if the party nominates Evan Bayh or HClinton or Bill Richardson,

you aren't playing by those rules, huh?

You grab your ball and bat and stomp off of the playground?

Your vision of the party is one vision alone. It's to be shared.

That's the point.

[peacetheonlyway]

107. Party loyalty is why we have 2 Supreme court judges

that want to turn back the clock for women's right to choose an abortion
2 judges that dismissed a supreme court election fraud challenge from Lynn Landes of Pennsylvania
a supreme court that just passed a ruling that PUNISHES whistleblowers and makes them afraid to rat out bad government
Party loyalty is why we are in Iraq..
Harry Reid does not reprsent me as a democrat and I don't blame Dem senators for NOT DOING what Reid tells them to.....

party loyalty is why Hillary can stand up there and vote to SEND MORE TROOPS TO IRAQ when the citizens in her district and elsewhere have voted overwhelmingly to bring the troops home

party loyalty IS LESS IMPORTANT TO ME than democrats who are a. elected by the citizens and b. follow the will of the citizens.

I want to put the CITIZEN back into government.


I personally experienced my singular power with the Dean campaign that I CAN EFFECT who gets into power and I am personally responsible for his sitting there at the DNC chair and I will find another dark horse to support and together with a bunch of other "citizens" I will make sure they are so far ahead of the other dumbunny stooges that the 'party' will choose that candidate and not the ones you suggest....

Feingold is the only other dem that has my attention re: 2008...

[saltpoint]

119. Your tenets of characterization for the party'ss nominee are genuinely

admirable but in the real world it's irresponsible for blaming party loyalty for the election of George Bush, or the appointment of Supreme Court nominees.

In fact it's bullshit.

Gore won in 2000, just for starters. It was a stolen election in Florida.

Kerry-Edwards beat Bush-Cheney in Ohio in 2004.

Two Democrats winning two elections, both by the way, because of heightened and impressive grassroots activity, scored successfully higher numbers of Democratic votes, Gore with the record in 2000, then Kerry-Edwards in 2004 as the all-time vote getters for Democrats. All-time. Heavy on the grassroots activity, of which many of us were a part.

Party loyalty is not the cause of Sam Alito. That's just not true.

[saltpoint]

144. So then you AREN'T voting for the Democratic ticket in 08 if

people you don't personally like comprise it.

Ok. Well, at least we all know where you stand.

[robbedvoter]

101. Big problem. Democrats were supposed to represent me, fight for me

be on my side, not W's (again, me=Democratic voter for the literal minded).
So, absolutely. With democrats like this, who needs republicans?

[peacetheonlyway]

108. I'm with robbed voter..

and a might nice flying dove graphic too!

[saltpoint]

116. I hope you two are happy together with your dark horse candidate for 08.

Oh, it could happen.

It might even be exciting.

But I wouldn't be at all surprised if you two should brace for a HClinton-Bill Richardson ticket.

No dark horses there -- establishmentarian centrist/center-to-right -- you name it --all the way.

Are ya ready?

Or Kerry could win the nom again. Ready?

Or Edwards. Or Warner. Or Evan Bayh. Who knows who it will be?

My guess is that the Kerry group overwhelmingly will be supporting the Democratic ticket in 08. How 'bout you guys?

[saltpoint]

157. "Democrats" means more than one thing. Why don't you tell why

you decided to slam John Kerry?

You think yo're the only frustrated person on DU? Or in the country? Most people don't like the direction Bush has taken us. You think you're alone?

You're not.

You're nothing special. You're one of many millions of people living in a time when the Bush administration is trying to shred the Constitution.

The Kerry-Edwards ticket would have been a FAR better government.

You're throwing him down the well with a deliberate character slam.

Strictly bush-league.

What are you going to do if he's the nominee in 08? Move to Bolivia?

[peacetheonlyway]

68. you're right.. I wish Edwards had spoken up

I heard that Edwards and Kerry had a fight RE: concession.

Edwards wanted to proceed, Kerry = coward did not.

Just a rumour but I heard they made a deal, and the result was that Edwards would have to follow Kerry's lead in the legal activities in Ohio in order to make the "count every vote" statement.

to this day, I hear, the edwards and kerry families, once great friends, don't even speak.

the sad part, indeed, is that no one, not even Howard Dean, has claimed 'election fraud'.

they have danced all around the subject. and the DNC report pretty much guaranteed Optiscans will continue to 'dishonestly count' and therefore guarantee continued election fraud for ages to come....

but the RFK articles makes cowards of them all..

i'm all for a 2008 candidate that IS NOT THE OLD GUYS WHO COULD NOT SPEAK OUT FOR AMERICANS WHEN IT MOST COUNTED...

I'm not a big edwards fan, but he did speak out on election night and that was worth something in my book.....

[saltpoint]

146. You know what? I just have a hunch -- just a hunch, mind you -- that

Elizabeth Edwards would disagree with you about John Edwards being a coward.

My hunch is that she perceives him -- and accurately so -- as a tremendous father and a dedicated man to the better angels of human nature.

Not very many cowards -- your word -- climb Mt. Kilimanjaro. Very damn few is my guess. Have you climbed it? I haven't.

'Would imagine it takes stamina and strength and fortitude. I don't think I would associate the term "cowardice" with what it would take to climb Kilimanjaro.

I could be wrong.

What do you think?

[ProSense]

69. Any other Democrats you'd like to attack? n/t

[robbedvoter]

73. For now, only those who aided and abetted in covering this crime

I reserve the right to attack others as they make asses of themselves on other issues. If you don't mind and the clubhouse approves. :sarcasm:

[saltpoint]

82. That's one of the worst sentences I've ever read. What does it MEAN?

[peacetheonlyway]

79. liberman, clinton, and the Dems

who voted to confirm General Hayden, a military man responsible for spying on Americans to head the CIA...

I could list those democrats for you if you'd like?

[saltpoint]

106. Careful on the voting mine fields. Russ Feingold, a man I believe

you think pretty well of, voted to confirm John Ashcroft, who by the way is complicit and specifically identified as a player in throwing the Ohio election.

See RFK Jr.'s fine article on same.

[saltpoint]

66. Your world may be smaller than you realize. In the greater world,

HClinton, Evan Bayh, and John Kerry are the top three money folks in the warchest department right now.

They're going to be in the mix if they decide to run.

Better get ready.

[peacetheonlyway]

72. yeah, and howard dean started with 50K in his pocket

and ended up out fundrasing all the other candidates combined..

Remember, Kerry, going into Iowa and NH broke as can be?? do you remember that? having to use his own money (Oops, I mean Teresa's money) to proceed.

I believe a darkhorse candidate with the NETROOTS internet fundraising engine, can raise 3 times these other buttheads combined...

in fact I intend to be part of that machine when a candidate worth my attention arises.....

[saltpoint]

78. Right, but your point isn't applicable. Money isn't everything, but

it's quite a bit up front.

Ask the good people of EMILY's List. They'll tell you the same thing.

I remember the details of the Iowa campaign, yes. So what? By the way, the money was Kerry's, not his wife's, and that's another RW meme people throw around on FOX. Check your facts. Look under Kerry's e-mortgaging a home and then come to your own conclusion.

It was his own money. His own choice. His own strategy. And he won.

[peacetheonlyway]

90. The grassroots fundraising can triple

whatever early money the bigname dems have and they know it..

one thing we can count on , they will spend that money in all the wrong places, so it won't matter that they have so much.

ask Joe Trippi, he blew Dean's wad on badly produced commercials and not in the areas he should have spent it...

money is one of a 3 prong campaign effort.

Money
People canvassing the streets
STRONG PR managment

dean had 2 out of 3 but lost on the 3rd prong cause he did not appreciate that buying new shoes and a nice suit was critical to his success.. he was too cheap and not marketing savvy enough to understand to hire the right PR people to shut the scream down before it began...


I will look for a candidate that understand the top 3 things you need to win a campaign.....

[saltpoint]

98. HClinton, John Edwards, John Kerry, Richardson, probably Warner,

and maybe others all fit the criteria for a likely nomination.

My guess is that it's one of those five and maybe Gore if he jumps in.

You holding your own individual preference over the will of primary voters in 50 states?

What if your model is rejected and your candidate doesn't win the nom?

[peacetheonlyway]

113. We keep hearing the POPULARITY MANTRA

when Dean was not even in the top 7 and he came inches from being our next president...

Kerry taking Iowa and NH was a fluke.. he played dirty and did backroom deals and Dean was too naive to understand the need to do attack ads and backroom deals... his integrity was too far above that...

but if you think we can assess the top 5 at this early stage, you have not noticed history (a history where even Bill Clinton was a real latecommer as well as Jimmy Carter)..

so no, I don't agree with your choosing our dem. president fully 2 years and some change before the election.....

[ProSense]

125. So your theory is Kerry stole the primaries from a naive Dean? Wow!

That's the popular opinion!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[saltpoint]

130. You like Dean so the voters in Iowa cast fluke votes? Jesus, that's

incredibly arrogant.

Last time anybody checked, you vote was one vote, not a superior vote to others' votes.

Don't think so much of yourself that you'd presume that differing votes are inferior to your instincts.

Because they aren't.

[emulatorloo]

147. Do some research - Dean knew all about attacking other democrats

from day one of the primary season and did it. Over and Over. And Over and Over again. I will tell you that many I know in Iowa were turned off on Dean because they perceived him as "TOO NEGATIVE"

Howard Dean is a great man. I am tired of seeing great democrats like dean etc being used as bludgeons against other great dems.

[diamidue]

118. Amen!

Amen to all your comments re Kerry/Edwards. I wholeheartedly agree.

[saltpoint]

150. I think you owe Dean an apology. I like Howard Dean. A lot. I wanted

him to be the party's chair long before he was mentioned.

But his not wearing sharp clothes had nothing with his getting his ass kicked in the Iowa caucus.

It wasn't the bad suits. And it wsn't the DLC. He was outflanked and outvoted. That's exactly what happened.

Kerry: 38%

Edwards: 32%

Dean: 16%

No suit of clothes shuffles voters' perceptions to a tune like that.

His suit? His "scream" was an exhortation to VERY good men and women who volunteered and worked their hindends off for his campagin. It was a call to purpose and an exuberant thank-you. The media played it over and over to deman him, and in so doing, they assaulted the dignity of those volunteers. It was shitwork by the media. Not Dean's suit, and not the DLC. And not "old bad Dems" you want "to flush."

Get a clue.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

114. Maybe you could write to Congress

and tell your Senators to support Kerry's Clean Money campaign act!

Otherwise, that's the reality: candidates need money to campaign. This site needs money to operate, so they sell advertising. That's life!

[saltpoint]

127. There'd by god be some changes made if i were in charge of the GOP.

But perhaps very few if you were.

[saltpoint]

135. People who disagree with you might be everywhere. They might be

here on DU on this very board, for example.

They might be in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Or in Boise, Idaho.

There might be some in the Feingold camp or the Richardson camp or the Mike Gravel headquarters, wherever it might be.

You just never know!

But just SO you know, I feel you should email your OP to Senator Kerry's remarks. I am absolutely certain he would appreciate hearing your comments on his character.

Do it.

Send your OP right there. Look up his webcontact site and send it off! He'll come into work tomorrow morning and there your gleaming message will be, festooned with the lovely, affirming, pro-Democratic team-play diction you've carefully chosen for his listening ears.

Get back to us on howw it goes, too.

[blm]

99. Edwards had NO EVIDENCE to make a legal case. Kerry had NO EVIDENCE to

make a legal case.

YOU and others are presuming LEGAL EVIDENCE that was not there - it would have taken a WHISTLEBLOWER prepared to rat out BushInc that DAY to continue.

Here's what an election fraud EXPERT says:

Posted by LandShark:

Key words in the OP include "LEGAL evidence", much different

than real evidence, very little is admissible to impeach vote counts, but variations from state to state.

There was some activity by Kerry after the election. Under-reported. Could have been more. Some Kerry spokespeople were unhelpful.

The candidate is one of the LAST people who will ever make FULLFORCE allegations because they will pesonally be made to pay a very high price for that by other side. That makes him very different from you and me, so I don't attach the same significance to measured words and actions from a candidate as I do from citizens who are much more free.

Kerry, in my educated guess as a lawyer, also had legal advice suggesting that the election challenge would, if made, send the country toward an abyss of uncertainty because of Bush v Gore 2000, possibly invalidating the election instead of reversing it, thus keeping the incumbent in until a new election anyway.

BOttom line: I don't find Kerry's this or Kerry's that to be useful indication of anything without a lot of explanation and context. This is supported by Mark Crispin Miller's post about a private encounter with Kerry saying it was stolen, followed by a public disavowal by Kerry's staff that any such thing ever occurred. I don't think Mark Crispin Miller just made up an entire story - but Kerry staff says he handed over a book, and nothing else basically happened.

Too much pressure on Kerry. False issue, like reading tea leaves to understand someone forced partially silent.

[robbedvoter]

117. That public disavowal - not really points for Kerry - he knows it's stolen

but let us be preached about how "we lost" "because the values people voted" and how "we need to be more like the values people" to hope to win...and how W had a mandate...
on how many levels was his (theirs - Edwards too) damaging to us, voters?
On how many levels did it help strengthen the fascists stronghold on us?

[peacetheonlyway]

123. bravo

ditto what he said!

[blm]

124. That's why it's the Dem INFRASTRUCTURE that needs your FOCUS, robbed.

We need to work to BAN electronic voting machines and educationg the public AND the lawmakers is the first step.

It's a real luxury to throw shit at one of the few lawmakers we have who even BELIEVES in machine fraud and wants to work on banning electronic voting machines.

Yep - let's tear down Kerry's credibility some MORE along with the GOP media right when he's come to the conclusion the machines need to be outlawed.

[peacetheonlyway]

121. THERE WAS TONS OF EVIDENCE IN OHIO

and there is now even more evidence all over the country.

The evidence in the election world was paid for by hard working citizens. not our election democrats who were supposed to support us.. we feel very let down by the democratic leadership these days!!!!


I paid 30K in GA and have enough evidence to put some people in jail for 10 years on felony & misdemeanor charges. Did you know it's at least a misdemeanor and possibly a felony to cause vote manipulation?

We have the goddamned evidence and Kerry knew there was evidence and he did nothing over these years with the information.

and the RFK article is only 1/10th of the evidence...

there is raw data on Lucas county Ohio I can share with you, showing the pollbooks and how they are totally outta whack from the actual voters.. Lucas was a Diebold county.. the woman running Lucas was Bernadette Noe, the wife of a man Tom Noe that was just indicted for steering campaign funds to Bush unethically and will likely face 2 years in jail not to mention the other charges of his selling/buying/stealing coins from the Ohio Bureau of Workman's compensation (later they had $10M in stolen coins)...

so why don't we admit the evidence is so predominant.. the election fraud activists held conference after conference presenting the evidence and the mainstream media was nowhere to be found...

and if you don't believe the evidence is there, go loook in Maryland where Diebold machine failure is on trial or look at in Pennsylvania where entire counties had machine malfunctions eating thousands of votes...

it's not even about rigging anymore.. the machines are too unreliable to count our votes.. period...

[blm]

129. So tear down the ONE LAWMAKER who believes the machines need BANNING

And there was NO EVIDENCE to make the LEGAL CASE.

To say there was a legal case that day is NOT A FACT IN EVIDENCE, and every election fraud expert will tell you so.

[saltpoint]

131. Sorry. That's not how legal action works. What RFK artfully assembled

and what John Conyers' staff has re-assembled could not have been done in the margin of time afforded to any candidate in the 2004 election.

You're just flat dead completely across-the-board wrong on that.

You can type your opinion in big letters but it just isn't going to change the facts on the ground.

[saltpoint]

155. If you know an attorney who can assemble a case for felony voter fraud

in Ohio or anywhere else in 2004 or any other time at all, by all means get in touch with him or her and let's all pitch in for the fees.

My guess is there's no such person.

"TONS" of evidence takes time to gather. You should know that.

Most attorneys will be happy to tell you that their work is not usually a drive-through experience. It takes time.

It

Takes

Time.

Find an attorney who doesn't need that kind of time to build a case and let's hire that attorney. You are making the claim, so you do the looking. We'll expect you to find this brilliant person -- let's see -- how about in maybe 24 hours. That's roughly the time Kerry had. Ok? 24 hours, post on DU with the contact info of that attorney, and we're home free!

[Mass]

105. So ,why are you posting?

[peacetheonlyway]

126. because I want my DEMOCRACY back

and plain and simple, Kerry is not the man to give it back to me.

simple enough?

[saltpoint]

132. Your claim is utter bullshit. You no more have a right to say that

than you have the right to say you are the superior vision in this matter.

You are not.

You're one of several million of us, and each has a view.

You join in the slamming on Kerry to what -- justify your own anger? Work for change and stop slamming people.

God it's so trashy for you to single out a public servant of very long standing -- likely longer than you -- and pretend he's to blame.

Get in the clear.

[saltpoint]

133. No, it isn't simple at all. It isn't YOUR democracy, to begin with.

It's OUR democracy. Begin to think in WE and less in ME.

That might help a little.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

120. Agreed. Subsequent (in)action confirmed that it was a slick attempt

to come out smelling better than kerry (like the false "pozitive candidate" image media built for him).
Wanna fight, Johhny E? The cause is here - give it a try. Just try saying it: S-T-O-L-E-N E-L-E-C-T-I-O-N.

[Mass]

102. How many lies do we need again and again and again?

You dont like Kerry. Anybody who has an IQ higher than 10 gets that.

Do you think that you will change ANYBODY's mind with your attacks? You seem to have some time to lose. So have fun.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Old and In the Way]

112. So when are you running, Moses?

Why don't you lead us to the Promised Land? You sound like a tough person....I'll bet you could have overturned the results in Ohio, single-handedly...if only John Kerry hadn't lost your phone number. :-(

[saltpoint]

128. - - -

:toast: :thumbsdown: :dem:

[robinlynne]

115. Thank-you.

[saltpoint]

122. No, thank YOU, robinlynne. A character slam is ALWAYS richer if

more than one person throws in on it.

Lovely. The OP also slams John Edwards later on in the thread. Are you in on that also?

[robinlynne]

136. NOT about a character slam. Kerry fucked up BIG TIMEE. The American people

wanted him in office. HE walked away. Barbara Boxer and others showed us there is a way to stand up to fraud. You stand up. Noone with less gumption has a chance of becoming the next president.We are fighting major election fraud. We have the ,majority. you cannot consider walking away without a fight. They will take power.

[saltpoint]

137. It's hard to follow what you're talking about. Your news on Boxer isn't

news. I love the woman. Always have. She's the greatest.

One man or one woman doesn't win or lose an election.

Several million people are involved.

Yes. SLAM is the word I used and SLAM is what it is.

You endorsed it.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saltpoint]

156. Try to get over it. Absent that you might want to join a bowling league.

You know what? I know you secretly love John Kerry. You love his voters. They are northwestern Iowans. They are southwestern Ohioans. They are mid-central Rhode Islanders and desert Californians and folks in Chicago and Denver and Juneau and who knows where else.

There were several million of them across the country in 2004, and they haven't all gone away.

Why, who knows -- they might even prevail in the 2008 election. That would upset your theory, your adamant theory that Kerry won't be the nominee. If Gore opts out and HClinton's internal polls tell her she's going to lose Iowa and lose big, that leaves Warner, Edwards, Kerry, Biden, and Bayh as likely frontrunners. Maybe Feingold if he can raise some dough.

Of those five or six, Kerry and Bayh are the best funded.

One of them might win Iowa and New Hampshire both. And then go on to the nomination.

You have no idea in hell what's going to happen.

Sorry you don't like people who do like Kerry, but DU isn't even a drop in the bucket.

Happy elections!

[pinto]

158. Locking.

Thread's become a flamefest, personal sniping and name calling...