RFK's Last words

[Cetacea]

After falling to the ground, fatally wounded, Bobby uttered the words "Is everyone all right?" This was caught on tape by a reporter from Los Angeles radio station. Now THAT's a hero.

Another quote from Bobby, this time upon seeing the corpse JFK before the autopsy: "That is not my brother."

Who was it? Dallas Police Officer Tippet looked so much like JFK that fellow cops called him "JFK". His facial profile was a near perfect copy of Kennedy's. He was shot numerous times after he was fatally shot. All of the additional shots were to the head and throat.
Odd, but try finding a photo of Tippet anwhere. You may find one, but that's about it. Strange for such a historic figure.
Two coffins were flown to Maryland that afternoon.

[Sydnie]

1. Interesting post n/t

[Cetacea]

3. Thanks. It's all true.. eom

[niallmac]

2. ...and speaking of Arlen Specter...

I see he is busy with the white wash yet anew.

[Cetacea]

5. Yes...

...I wonder what kind of deal was struck from his days with the Warren Commission? "We'll let you be senator for eternity for your soul."

[Selatius]

4. I believe if RFK had lived, we would not be watching this country die slow

He would've pulled us out of Viet Nam, and we would've been spared Watergate and Nixon. If his coat tails were long enough, we probably would've been spared Reaganomics and Reagan's wars in Central America or his support of dictators like Saddam in the 1980s. Without Reagan, there wouldn't be a gigantic national debt that had to be paid off, which was made even worse by Bush Jr. and his tax cuts for the rich and his wars for profit.

Maybe America's inner-city neighborhoods would've benefitted from RFK continuing the "war on poverty," and so many minority youths of today wouldn't be involved in gangs, in prison, or living in neighborhoods unfit to raise families. Hell, it's expected that in a few more decades more than half of minorities will never finish high school anymore. Maybe so many poor folks wouldn't be sucked into the war machine with promises of finishing college only to see their bodies and lives smashed and shredded in the machinery of war.

[Cetacea]

6. All that and so much more...

...the whole national dialog would be different, I believe. Compassion, heart, and intelligence would be the spirit running throughout the land.
It's difficult to envision just how entirely different it would be today.
Good analysis nonetheless.

[dempeoria]

7. This country is still a great place.

Yes, it's a shame he died--and it's always interesting to think about 'what might of been'. But I think we're doing fine--and we'll do even better in the future. This IS the greatest nation on earth!

[Cooley Hurd]

8. Welcome to DU, dempeoria

I wish I could share your sentiments, but I have a hard time feeling anything but shame for our country anymore.:(

[Sydnie]

10. Good to see you CH!

:hug:

[Cooley Hurd]

11. Hi Sydnie!

:hi: Always good to see you too! Even at this ungodly hour! :hug:

[robinlynne]

86. me too.

[alfredo]

98. It's our job to bring back the "home of the free" We must appeal to

what is good and reject the bad.

No amnesty for bush and his illegal spy program.

[Sydnie]

9. Back away from the kool-aid

If you think we're doing fine, you are punch drunk.

I say Welcome to DU, but you might not be here long to enjoy it.

[dempeoria]

12. Huh?

People that think this country is great aren't supposed to post here? Does it say that in the rules...?

[ConsAreLiars]

13. We here usually expect documentation - being reality based and such.

What exactly qualifies the US as "the greatest nation on earth"? Health care, income equality, life expectancy, infant mortality, education level, homicide rates, invasions? None of those. What precisely did you mean?

[dempeoria]

15. I could easily talk about...

...our freedoms, our Constitution, our opportunities, our civil rights, our natural resources and the beauty of America, our standard of living, our ability to defend ourselves, our mix of people, our relative safety and ease of travel within our country, the availability of goods to buy we have, our educational opportunities, our level of medical care, our freedom of religion or freedom to be atheist...etc. etc. etc.

[Elwood P Dowd]

17. In other words, all the things your hero Bush is destroying

"...our freedoms, our Constitution, our opportunities, our civil rights, our natural resources and the beauty of America, our standard of living, our ability to defend ourselves, our mix of people, our relative safety and ease of travel within our country, the availability of goods to buy we have, our educational opportunities, our level of medical care, our freedom of religion or freedom to be atheist...etc. etc. etc."

[dempeoria]

18. Don't assume.

I haven't mentioned who my heroes are.

[Sydnie]

19. You don't have to

WE re reality based, remember? We see the hand writing and can read between the lines pretty clearly too. We left our rose colored glasses years ago.

[dempeoria]

20. I'm different. I'm an optimist.

And I really DO love this country.

[Sydnie]

22. I really DO love this country too

but obviously *I* don't live in the same one that you do.

[Elwood P Dowd]

23. And Hitler loved Germany

:-(

[Sydnie]

24. GMTA

see post #22!

[dempeoria]

25. I'm not sure he did.

If he did, he wouldn't have did the things he did to it--particularly right at the end of the war.

[Sydnie]

26. Why at the end of the war?

Everything before that was ok or what?

[dempeoria]

28. No

I'm sure I didn't say that everything before the end of the war was okay. I wouldn't say something like that.

[Sydnie]

29. Then what did he do at the end of the war

that was so far worse than everything he did leading up to that moment?

I think everything that he did was horrible and is not all that far from what blivet** is doing to us now. He thought he was right as did those that supported and benefited from his actions, again, not all that different than what is happening to us today.

But do tell, what did he do at the end of the war that sets that action apart from all his other actions?

[dempeoria]

30. I, too, think everything Hitler did was horrible.

At the end of the war, he flooded the subways and tried to destroy Berlin piece by piece. That certainly flies in the face of his 'loving his country' as a poster suggested. No, it was not 'worse' than his other acts (his killing the Jews and all the others WAS) but I would never believe he 'loved Germany' when he tried to literally destroy his own home city simply for the sake of destroying it.

[Sydnie]

31. Berlin was not his "home city"

Hitler was born in Braunau, Austria. He loved Germany because he could be a soldier there in WWI. He loved Germany because he could rule it.

[dempeoria]

32. Yes, he was living there at the time.

And it is where he had made it his 'home' (Though he did travel from place to place.) I don't think I mentioned where he was born.

[Sydnie]

35. You appear to not mention a lot of things

over and over.

[dempeoria]

70. Anything I don't mention....

...can be looked up on the Internet, I'm sure!

[mdmc]

111. welcome to DU

DU is the greatest!

[Llewlladdwr]

120. Nice Syd.

Why don't ya just call the dude a freeper and get it over with? That's obviously where you're going.

[Sydnie]

121. Too late

He's pushing stone already.

Appears my bs meter was working properly after all.

[Divine Discontent]

148. I don't know what he edited from....

but the du newbie doesn't sound like a freeper to me at all. I think a lot of us are so bent out of shape from the shrub that we attack anyone that tries to have positive thoughts about our country. I, in turn, question why you're being so negative to the newbie when as far as I clearly read, he/she's only saying the positives about the US. Now if they start saying "bush isn't that bad" or "democrats are getting us nowhere" than sure, rail on 'em, but otherwise - chill.




www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<<--- Check it out Top 2006 & 2008 ProDem stickers & Anti-Bush wear!

[Sydnie]

149. It involved more than one thread actually

I am beginning to suspect that this one might be what I would consider a serial disruptor, attempting to fly under the radar better and better with each attempt.

FWIW, this is the first of two that were tombstoned in as many days, posting along the exact same lines, with certain differences of course, but similar enough to make one go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

The mods obviously saw something there too, as they did ban him.

[uppityperson]

150. Yes, search is our friend

as is alert. It gives you a chance to look at patterns which is good in deciding if it just a personality clash or a larger problem.

[Divine Discontent]

151. thank you for the polite corrected information

the repeated edits seemed "troubling" to me, like he had said some things that he thought maybe gave too much inbred hate for Democratic values away. lol...

I just think sometimes people jump on people who have differing opinions too quickly on here if they're newbies, but posters with 5000 posts say similar things. but, I stand corrected on this one, like you said, it was an ongoing pattern, and of course, "on edit" is troubling when it's like every post!! LOL

CHEERS! :)



www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<<--- Check it out!

[Yollam]

64. Bush pretends to love America...

And yet he is deliberately increasing our national debt exponentially and encouraging employers to export their jobs overseas. He claims to love our country, but uses the young people in the service for his personal playthings in wars he concocted out of pure lies. He claims to love our country, but he golfed for days while New Orleans drowned. He claims to love our country, but he cut anti-terror funding by $100 mil. in 2001, blocked all investigations into Saudi-Yemeni terror financing, ignored several PDBs warning of bin Laden's intention to strike, and sat on his ass in a classroom for 30 minutes after being informed that we were UNDER ATTACK.

Is that the way you love America?

[LostinVA]

59. Of course he loved Germany -- he was a total and complete nationalist

That was his whole point. He wanted to save Germany from it's enemies: the liberals, the Jews, the homosexuals... all while being imperialistic AND merging corporations into government -- all wrapped up in his cult of personality, and controlling of the press and all branches of government. Truth be damned! Hmmm.... sounds familiar....

[rman]

43. you're different?

No problems paying for healthcare, paying for fuel, heating, electricity? No loved ones in Iraq? No problems with all the lies coming from th Bush administration? No problems with the corruption, gerrymandering, lack of oversight, insecure voting machines?

Why, you really must be "different".

[Phx_Dem]

46. welcome to DU..

don't let them get you down dempeoria!

[LostinVA]

58. I love what this country can be

I hate what has been done to it now, as well as hating our government.

Optimist? You're not an optimist -- an optimist is someone who believes ina favorable outcome. They aren't someone who turns a blind eye to truth. An optimist is someone who says the US CAN become the greatest country on Earth.

[Yollam]

63. People who love their country...

...want it to be its best, to live up to its ideals, and want ALL of its citizens to share in its bounty.

[dempeoria]

75. Yup!

[Yollam]

118. I expected such a response from you.

But republicans DON'T want America to be her best. Anyone who criticizes here illegal wars and torture policies is automatically told "Love it or leave it". That is also the stock response to calls for single-payer national health care or any other progressive program that might help the poor.

[robinlynne]

87. here here!

[nonconformist]

34. So do tell - who are your heroes? nt

[Sydnie]

27. Then talk about those things in specifics

Maybe your optimism and enthusiasm will rub off on us. ;)

[rman]

42. We could talk about the continuing constitutional crisis,

as per W declaring it doesn't apply to him.

Daniel Ellsberg Interview
"The day after the next 9/11, our freedoms are gone."
Video, run time 4 Minutes
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13540.htm

In 1971, as a Defense Department Official and Vietnam Vet, he "released" 7,000 pages of Nixon's secret war plans, "The Pentagon Papers", to The New York Times. Placing him at the top of Nixon's "Enemies List" and having Henry Kissinger call his "The most dangerous man in the world!"

[midnight]

51. My freedoms, my health care, pay equity......

I no longer feel free when talking on the phone to family. My phone keeps tapping. Health care-don't get me started. Good lord. We have insurance but try and get health care. Doc's and nurses so overworked so that administration can make hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary. Sorry I'm not able to verify all gripes, but those of you real interested in a recent story in Milwaukee Wisconsin about nurse's salaries might like to look at this. Aurora hospital executive told nurses who were asking for a raise that they should find themselves a rich husband. Several nurses dressed in wedding attire and went to propose to him. Apparently he made hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

[LostinVA]

57. We are far, far from the greatest country on Earth

We're actually pretty far down the list. WE aren't even the greatest/best country in this hemisphgere... or even the continent.

All the stuff you mention has either been destroyed or is being destroyed. How about health care? POverty? INfant morality rates? Literacy? etc. etc. etc.

Hell, Cuba ranks better than us on many of these things.

I fear you're either desperately trying to sell something or you're desperately needing to believe this is true... for whatever reason.

What flavor Kool-Aid is your favorite? I personally don't like the stuff.

[Laurab]

80. Interestingly enough

each one of those things is under attack by the present administration, with the possible exception of our ability to defend ourselves. That's not so much under attack, as being destroyed because we're invading countries that pose no threat to us, and our military is overwhelmed. So while they may not be TRYING to destroy that ability, they are.

I love the country this used to be. Before it was divided into red and blue states. Before it pandered to the rich and ignored the poor. Before it began spying on its own citizens, and starting illegal wars, causing hundreds of thousands of needless deaths and injuries. When we had actual checks and balances, so that the pResident couldn't abuse his power. When we had open and transparent elections, so that we could be sure our vote counted. I could go on, but I'm sure you're aware of all the things that have changed under this administration.

THAT'S the country I love, and I hope we can get it back. There are many things to love about this country, but we're losing those things day by day, through the unchecked power of the current administration. I miss THAT country, it was much easier to love.

[jbnow]

132. How are we

"the greatest nation on earth!"?

Our level of medical care? The # of uninsured keeps rising, up to 46 million now, almost all the working poor/middle class and their families. We are the only western nation that lets that happen.

Among the 33 industrialized nations our infant mortality rate is near the worst, better than only Latvia.

We are one of the very few with the death penalty and only shared the execution of those who were juvenile or mentally defective with "the axis of evil" type nations.

Who are you comparing us to? We have no more freedom of religion than any western nation.

We have fewer controls on pollution...

and so on.

We were founded on great ideals...we long to be a great nation...but it doesn't happen just by saying it's true.

[Sydnie]

14. We were great

We are not so great anymore. We have become the people that this administration has made us afraid of ...

We are no longer considered the good guys by any thinking country in the world, China owns our debt, Japan is buying up our property, Dubai is guarding our ports, and Gates has divested his dollar holdings into Euros. Our manufacturing base is dwindling, our service jobs are being performed in other countries and the minimum wage is not enough to provide for a single person much less a family. House foreclosures are at an all time high, the interest rates are rising, we don't have a way to track how many dollars are being printed and dumped into the system anymore, he Dow down 350 points (I think that was the number reported today)today. We invaded a country that didn't threaten us, we are threatening another country that has the support of Russia and China, we ignored the countries that actually HAD weapons (NK for example) and the countries that are currently involved in genocide (Darfur ring a bell), we are raising the debt limit rather than curbing unnecessary spending on a war of choice, we have a major area of our country that fell to waste due to natural disaster and stays that way to this day. We have voting machines that can't be trusted yet we demand answers when the Ukraine votes don't match their exit polls (just as our last election as well) yet we don't investigate our own election problems. We have lobbyists buying our government and laws written by the very entities that the laws are intended to address. etc, etc, etc.

The hand writing is on the wall. Perhaps your rose colored glasses are blocking out the full text.

Don't get me wrong, I love what our country used to be, but I fear it will be decades before we can catch a glimpse of what it used to be, if then.

As the bumper stickers says "If you aren't totally outraged, you aren't paying attention."

[dempeoria]

16. Well, I see things differently.

I guess we each can hold differing opinions--that's another thing that makes America great!

[mr blur]

45. Forgive me for butting in, but

the ability to hold a different opinion from a fellow American doesn't mean that you're living in "the greatest country in the world".

And I hate to burst your bubble but Bush didn't invent democracy either. Or freedom. In fact these things existed long, long before your country was taken from its original inhabitants.

Have you ever BEEN anywhere else? You know, some of these places where civilisation sprang up? Baghdad, for example, over there in what's known as "the cradle of civilisation"? Oh, wait, not much of that left after the greatest country in the world has finished liberating it. If you ever do finish liberating it, that is. And our shame is that we helped you do it. Still, it's not as if we are under the illusion that we're the greatest country in the world and in the end no-one hates us as much as most of the world hates you.

[dempeoria]

81. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I don't think ANYBODY hates me (apart from maybe a girl or two I've dated.). And I did not 'help liberate' Iraq; I haven't been in the military.

[uppityperson]

108. Holding different opinions is not unique to USA, you know.

Most places around the world people can hold different opinions. Most people in the world can hold different opinions. I don't see how this makes America great since it is mostly universal around the world.

Welcome to DU

[Yollam]

62. There's nothing wrong with saying that.

Saying it as a response to the death of a great man, with only the hollowest acknowledgment of the tragedy is what gives you away.

[Sydnie]

67. thank you

glad it wasn't just me ... :hi:

[dempeoria]

83. Nonsense!

In the short time I've been here it's been demanded that I explain my innermost thoughts, do a treatis on my heroes, explain the Constitution, America's natural resources, delineate all of the job opportunities here, list the bounty of goods we have to offer our citizens, talk about our melting pot of people and the benefits that can confer, write up our travel freedoms, our civil rights--compare all that with every other country on earth., explain the Bush government and compare and contrast all these things with him and every other American president who ever lived, explain wartime Germany, Hitler's life, compare HIM to George W. Bush and the American government and WWII Germany, expostulate about the horrors of Germany as a country of Europe, and within Berlin in the closing days of the war--and mention Hitler's entire life, reason for being, how he came to power, and how he met his end--and don't forget where he was born and his every residence up until his death!

So, if a thorough tribute to Bobby Kennedy and his life is something I left out, I just haven't gotten around to it yet!

[Sydnie]

84. Considering the topic of the post,

that tribute should have been first, not last, in your list of considerations.

I find it odd the threads you have contributed to and the content that you have contributed to those threads with little to no content contained in the posts. You were asked to substantiate your position, not all that uncommon on any DU thread, IMHO.

General lists of things that most here consider to be in the "questionable future" arena, that you say are the things that make this country great should not be hard for you to "flesh out" if you really believe they are the things that make this country "great". Others have posted a challenge to those statements you have made. Can you support them with more than just generalities or not?

I, for one, would love to find something to embrace as "great" about the things you listed. Lead me there, if you can. But, I won't hold my breath waiting for it either.

[dempeoria]

91. MY first post on this thread...

stated it was a shame that he had died. YOUR first post on this thread merely mentioned the topic was interesting. Perhaps you need to rethink you posts to me.

I could not possibly have the time it would take to school you in all the things you have asked me for info about. I refer you to the Internet. You can find out virtually ANYTHING--and you can hold your breath or not, as you choose.

[Sydnie]

94. but I was interested in your reasoning

which you obviously can't provide.

I posted my feelings about Robert Kennedy a few days ago. You can read that in my journal. My response to this post was just that ... that I found the post interesting.

You made some claims that I was asking for some further "fleshing out" about. That shouldn't be too difficult for anyone who holds the belief you say that you do to accomplish.

[dempeoria]

102. My reasoning....

People value the things they value because they find them valuable. I can't provide my every waking thought as to why I think America is a beautiful country, or why I've found great job opportunities here. Or why I value that I can travel freely, or that we can ably defend ourselves, or that our Constitution is a wonderous thing. I can't explain all the choices where I had to live and go to school; I can't explain to you that, if I did not like where I was living, I could pick up and easily move elsewhere. I don't have the time all the rest of my life to explain our laws and legal redress we have here, or the civil rights we aspire to--and have so greatly improved.

All I know is that all this vast collection of things I value are found here--some of them nowhere else--and the greatest number is here, all in the same place. I value America because no other place is as valuable to me.

Sure, other places are nice--I love Canada--I have relatives there. But my uncle, with a heart problem, had to wait 6 months for his med tests--he would've waited 3 DAYS here. My aunt wanted weight loss surgery in Ontario and the wait was 2 YEARS for a consult--my cousin had hers here 6 WEEKS from the time she decided she wanted it!

Ireland is my family's country, I love it too, but there's no right of abortion there, not as much free speech, not nearly the jobs or educational opportunities. In Russia, you couldn't travel--in much of the middle east, woman can't even LEAVE!

You think anybody'd care if I beat my wife in Pakistan? If I disappeared in Sao Paulo? If I was killed in Colombia? You think I'd have my sis working in the maquilladores(sp?) on the border of Mexico? You think I could say any of this in Iran? Or even be freely on the Internet in China or North Korea? Think we could protest our government as neatly in Myanmar? Would we have anything close to free press in Indonesia? Can it defend itself as well from outside threat? Can I make the wages I make and go fishing in the mountains in Nigeria? What school would my kids be sent to in Chad, Bangladesh, Viet Nam, Lesotho?

Now, I'm not going to debate every single little instance I've mentioned (I can see you getting all warmed up!)--and I'm not saying SOME of those things COULDN'T happen in America. But less of the bad, and more of the good--and more redress of the bad--and more FREEDOMS and more good--happen HERE than anywhere else.

People are either able to see that, or they're not.

[Tin Man]

124. Beautifully crafted reply, dempeoria. You should create a journal on DU

Good stuff there. But given the frenetic speed at which threads on DU are hatched, live, and die - even the best crafted and communicated opinions are often fade from the map within hours. Hence, Skinner implemented the journal feature on DU - it permits individuals to portfolio their best efforts for 'longevity'. I'd create one for myself, but most of my participation here is limited to 2 or 3 sentence replies to others, rather than fully developed OPs.

Pretty good effort for a rookie ;)
And again, welcome to DU.

[Sydnie]

125. You are replying to a ghost

[Tin Man]

126. Do you know why he got tombstoned?

...I didn't see anything in violation of DU policies. Did I miss something?

[Sydnie]

127. No I don't know for sure

I didn't alert at all on any of his fantasy posts, but obviously someone did. It seems that he had one message and that message was repeated in similar threads in the 24 hours that he was here.

As another poster said in one of those threads, he was a one trick pony.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sydnie]

130. But I didn't see it as harmless myself

I saw it as disruptive, just as the mods must have as well.

Blanket statements that he couldn't or wouldn't break down and supported in any substantive manner, posted in more than one thread, set my alarms off.

As evidenced by this thread (as well as the other one), his initial post was disruptive to the OP's intent in posting the thread in the first place.

It was the broad brush attempt and it just didn't pass the smell test for many here it seems.

With all the attention DU has been getting on Rush's show (I read that in another thread), it's not a stretch to think that some come here with the intent to disrupt more than usual, IMHO.

[Tin Man]

139. Now I understand why he got tombstoned...

...the Mods can be awfully touchy about dissenting opinions. Lovely.

[Llewlladdwr]

122. For what it's worth dempeoria...

The groupthink here gets pretty thick at times. There's also a tendency towards extreme doomsaying. If you can get past those thing though it can be an interesting place. Best of luck.

[upi402]

21. great at killing innocents, pissing of humans, destroying a lone planet

that can support life.

supressing democracy.

propaganda.

looting the treasury... oh oops! I'm wrong again. Not the country -just the Republican liars cons and cheats who rob power to kill and loot and exploit. That's what I mean, not the country, just the corporatists and the traitors who support them.

[rman]

38. "we're doing fine"

that's almost funny

[Yollam]

61. WTF is that supposed to mean?

What an inappropriate thing to say. "Oh well, Bobby's dead, but America's still the greatest! USA! USA!" I highly suspect anyone who would respond in such a bizarre manner.

[dempeoria]

72. It means I can separate the two things.

I can think Bobby's death is awful.

I can think America is wonderful.

And I can think those exact thoughts at the same time. It isn't inappropriate at all.

[Yollam]

119. No, that's not what it means at all.

And it is totally inappropriate. You may actually feel a tiny bit of sadness that Bobby the man is gone, but I don't think you're the least bit sad that Bobby the political machine is gone. You think you're being coy and cute, but it's just ugly. Take it elsewhere.

[LoZoccolo]

69. WILL YOU PEOPLE LAY THE FUCK OFF??!!

I'm not addressing you, dempeoria, but the people getting all over you.

People don't have to constantly say every negative thing to prove that they aren't in favor of Bush* or the policies of his party. If you feel that you have to attack people to prove that you don't, then that's pathetic and you need to get out of here and grow your own spine and sense of what you believe and have the confidence to believe it before muddling up threads the way you've done here.

We do have a lot of cool stuff here in this country. Is Bush* messing up some of it? Yeah. Am I optimistic in light of people's recent reversal on Bush*'s approval that things will get better? Why shouldn't I be? Aren't there countries where people wouldn't be allowed to reverse as such? Isn't that cool that we can here?

Do I think things are perfect, or that Bush* isn't to blame, or that we should't work to restore things? Of course not.

Now can you keep these two concepts in your head at the same time? I can. If you can't, go fix that and quit picking on people because of your defect.

The poster was praising RFK for crying out loud! Are you all so distorted that you don't even notice that?

Get. a. life. Oh, and you're breaking the rules. If you think someone's a disruptor just because they don't believe every little thing is as bad as you want to think it is, then go hit alert. If you're too embarrassed by the pathetic case you've have to raise if you did, then just shut up.

[dempeoria]

71. Thank you very much!

[Tin Man]

77. Ditto.

...although I'm late to the discussion (and alot of posts have been edited so I can't be certain of the original content), dempeoria's posts to this thread appear pretty harmless to me.

Rather, what pisses me off about this thread is the all-too-typical manner in which the exchange unfolded: a low-count poster chimes-in with an opinion deemed insufficiently 'righteously indignant' for the topic, and a pack of paranoid hyenas suddenly spring from the ether, circling their hapless victim as they bark implicit accusations of 'freeper infiltrator'

Welcome to DU, Dempeoria - please ignore the paranoid hyenas.

[dempeoria]

82. Thank you!

I hope I'm not too 'hapless' LOL!

[cigsandcoffee]

96. (Applauding) Thank you!

Half the posts I've made here since deciding to jump in have been thwarting off accusations that I'm a freeper troll. I've been accused of this because:

1. I too expressed pride in and love of America and its history

2. I expressed anger at what I took to be recent pandering from John Kerry


I mean, what the hell? What kind of purity does one need to express before they can have a different opinion without being some kind of neocon interloper?

[Jazz2006]

101. Indeed.

The unbridled and undeserved venom from some posters is nothing short of an embarassment to DU and a terrible disincentive to new posters.

Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

And welcome to DU, dempeoria :hi:

[dempeoria]

104. Thank you!

And you're absolutely right--it's going to alienate LOTS of people. I guess when posters here say this site doesn't exist to build the party base, they really mean it!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

138. Freeper!

:sarcasm:

No kidding. If there's one thing that pisses me off about DU, it's the pile-on when new posters present even a remotely differing opinion.

If he was truly a disruptor, I think he would have done a better job of it, but he seemed to be sincere in his thoughts and unaware of the dynamics of the place.

Too bad he got TSed.

[Pastiche423]

79. Please listen to me

It is very important to take your meds, especially when you don't want to.

[Raine]

33. If only

he had lived, we need a hero like RFK so much now. :cry:

[warrior1]

36. Officer Tippet

[Pachamama]

40. Wow! He did look like a Kennedy!

Is that the only photo? Very interesting.... :eyes:

[lonestarnot]

41. fucking

:rofl:

[Pachamama]

44. Sorry Lonestar...not following your comment?

:shrug:

[lonestarnot]

50. The officer Tippet pic.

Just a square with red x. Post #36

[Cetacea]

54. Right -click and go to properties

Then copy/paste the location.

[lonestarnot]

56. Tipet doesn't look like Kennedy.

[Cetacea]

65. the people he worked with thought so...

..and in the forensic way, a near perfect match. It's not a great photo, but like I said, it's possibly the ONLY photo of a man allegedly shot dead by a president's assassin.
And keep in mind Bobby's words about the face not being his brothers.

[dempeoria]

103. I didn't think so either.

[Cetacea]

107. Welcome to DU

There are now officially two photos of Tippet, so it's hard (for some) to make a judgement on two photos. We'd have to go on the word of the rest of the Dallas Police force and computer analyses. It's all a bit ironic, to say the least, don't ya think?

[dempeoria]

109. Yes--thanks!

And I think a LOT of clean-cut Irish/English guys could have looked like JFK. Maybe they didn't have quite his startling good looks, but well enough in death--considering the damage that was done and all...

[Cetacea]

48. That is the one.

Thanks for posting it. I don't have one available. It was alledged by a researcher that in a forensic sense, everything lined up. (distance between eyes, length of chin, distance from ears to mouth, etc..)

[Sydnie]

49. Wow, he really did look like him

That's bizarre!

[midnight]

53. I can't open the link.

I wish I could see the photo.

[Sydnie]

60. Here you go - for real =-)

[Cetacea]

66. lol. Thank you, Sydnie!

[Sydnie]

68. You're welcome

I could see it, don't know why others couldn't. I uploaded it to photobucket so it's all good.

[Cetacea]

55. Here ya go...

hmmm. I guess I can't hot link. Do the right click and get properties, address is there.

[rman]

39. heros like that do tend die untimely deaths

JFK, RFK, MLK, Wellstone

[stepnw1f]

52. I Believe the Right Wing Killed Him

or what powers lie behind the right wing.

[rman]

37. which autopsy,

the one in Dallas or the other one?

[Cetacea]

47. the second one eom

[Hidden Stillness]

73. Kennedy Became Greater All the Time

Robert Kennedy was more than a hero to me, and was actually a guide. Deeply intelligent, consciencious, someone who read complicated legal briefs, Congressional investigations, U.N. reports--and poetry. Kennedy was permanently wounded by the death of brother Jack, Pres. Kennedy, and went from being a hard-assed Attorney General and strict disciplinarian father--Robert Kennedy, Jr. has talked beautifully of this--to a gentle, tender soul, someone who was known in Washington for visiting Pres. Kennedy's grave late at night, and who never recovered. Kennedy famously learned about the depths of rural poverty, took a film crew to areas of the South, and vowed to pass legislation that would deal with the problems as they were. This was the era of Pres. Johnson's War on Poverty and Great Society, the Peace Corps., which I remember people volunteering for, the domestic version of it, VISTA, (many of which programs were actually the work of the great and usually uncredited Sargent Shriver), and many other attempts by volunteers and government programs, to end poverty. It was a totally different era, a more unified society, and if anyone then had suggested ripping our whole country apart so corporations could make more profits, that person would have been hated as a traitor.

I remember reading a story about a speech Robert Kennedy gave to an audience of--I think it was--rich medical undergraduates--telling about Kennedy's proposed anti-poverty programs, medical care for the poor, etc., and one student asked the usual: Who's gonna pay for all this? Kennedy answered clearly, "You are." A beautiful honesty, no "framing," no nothing--just the respect of an answer. This is how it works.

As for the fight on this thread about who loves America--remember, Republicans never really love this country; they are trying to kill every part of it. Also, the kinds of plants that try to disrupt DU, are not nearly bright enough to trick people here--when the first thing you do is attack people on this phony ground that they "hate America," "are whining," "blame everybody else," etc., it is really silly, and easily responded to. I love America and know we (and Canadians) are the greatest, and when we get rid of these fascist, neo-con Republican traitors and return to ourselves, we can once again live the life of our free democracy, for the people.

[mcscajun]

74. Source for the second quote?

Would be interested in seeing one, thanks.

[mucifer]

76. I think this quote is out of context.

I am a hospice nurse. People in shock at the death of their loved one, even when they know well in advance the death will come soon, often say things like this. I often hear "my mother is not dead it's not true". You also have to remember JFK's head was splattered from the bullet. That's not the way his family was used to seeing him. They were used to seeing him full of life. I can't know it for sure, but I bet it was more of an emotional statement coming from his heart than anything else.

The "Is everyone all right" quote to me is the amazing one. Thanks for that bit of info.

[Cetacea]

78. Yes, however consider these witnesses, including Schlesinger...

First, on Tippet:

"...What matters is that Tippet looked so much like the President that people often commented about it. Fellow policeman would often kid him about it, calling him "Mister President".
The devil is in the details: Tippet was killed 40 minutes after the President and taken to the same hospital, with a bullet wound to his head being the cause of death. Eerily enough, Tippet's wounds were identical to those reported by the JFK autopsy. Tippet was buried the following day in Dallas in a closed casket. The burial occurred less than 20 hours after he was killed. He remains the only Texas peace officer shot on duty who was ever buried without an autopsy..."

And the quotes from Bobby and others at the autopsy:


"It's not him": An examination of photos of Tippet and Kennedy shows the remarkable resemblance. Could he have been murdered so that his body could be used for x-rays and other forensics available at the time? Was J.D. Tippet ultimately buried at Arlington Cemetery?
As shocking as this may seem, consider the words of Senator Robert F. Kennedy as he viewed the body in the open casket. William Manchester reports that as RFK looked at his "brother" for the last time, he said: "It doesn't look like him at all". Manchester's news story continues, "His eyes full, the Attorney General turned to Bill Walton and whispered, 'Please look, I want to know what you think.' Walton looked as long as he could, with a growing sense of outrage. He said to Bob, 'You mustn't keep it open. It has no resemblance to the President.'" Arthur Schlesinger said: "It is appalling,...At first glance it seemed all right, but I am nearsighted. When I came closer it looked less and less like him." And Jackie said "That's not my husband. It's not Jack", and turned away sobbing. These people knew the President well..."

[IndyOp]

85. Links to more information about two coffins being flown to MD?

Here are some very good sources of information - IMHO:

JFK Murder Solved - Video & text of interview with James Files
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/interview.htm

Two years ago I accidently discovered their website. The core of the story was the confession of a man who claimed to have fired the fatal shot from the grassy knoll. I started to read with extreme skepsis, but I discovered that this man had many details, which by the way fitted exactly with what I had learned over the years and deemed plausible. His name is James Files and he is serving a jail term for attempted murder on a policeman.

Kennedy Assassination
<http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/04/337455.shtml?discuss>

*WARNING GRAPHIC* Zapruder Movie Stabilized
*WARNING GRAPHIC* http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/KF/0512/zapruder_-_stable.mov

[Sydnie]

89. That is one hard to watch film

It looks as if the whole side of his head exploded and the contents flew out.

:cry:

[IndyOp]

100. Yep. And Arlen Specter says one bullet killed

President Kennedy. The stabilized Zapruder film shows there was one bullet from behind (Book Depository) that went through his neck. Kennedy brought his arms & hands up to cover his neck and then slumped forward, at which time shots were fired from the front (grassy knoll). James Files - who has confessed to be a shooter from the grassy knoll says that he and another man fired from the grassy knoll within seconds of each other - and that their shots would have hit Kennedy virtually simultaneously - that explains why Kennedy is thrown back and it explains the amount of blood & tissue that explode from his head. Police officer behind him was covered in blood. And the police found the single bullet that killed Kennedy (and wounded Conally) in one whole piece on the stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

[Ghost Dog]

140. Damn. Why haven't I seen this before,

here in Europe?

I will continue to read up.

Thanks, guys.

[Cetacea]

92. well established,supposedly a soldier . eom

[achtung_circus]

88. My Dad died in 1992

at the age of 67 (bad heart, rheumatic fever as a child when you had to have money to call a doctor).

By the time I flew home he was in the "process" at the funeral home and I saw him at the viewing.

It in no way resembled the father I knew and loved.

Mostly he was, I guess over-hydrated would be the word. There were no wrinkles, there was no expression, there was nothing, and I felt nothing.

Then I walked to the head of the casket and looked down along the casket. There was some little detail, I think it might have been the very slight comb-over that was the only vain thing about him.

That one, single detail made it real. If I had not seen that one very small thing I would not have believed, in my heart, what I so much did not want to believe.

Just a thought.

I miss you, Dad.

[Cetacea]

95. Sorry for your loss

I too lost my father (and mother) within the space of fifteen months and can certainly empathize with you. However, they did look like my parents.
You have to put the quotes above in context with the other problems with the Maryland autopsy, all very well documented.
Again, sorry for your loss.

[tomreedtoon]

90. It was SPACE ALIENS, I tells ya!

So what are you telling us? Bobby Kennedy is hiding out in Mexico, with the hideously scarred James Dean, and like him afraid to face his fans again?

At a time when our nation is in trouble, why is someone playing the egotistical, self-aggrandizing, stupid game of conspiracy theory again?

[Cetacea]

93. umm...let's see...

oh yeah, maybe if some of our greatest leaders weren't assasinated the country would'nt be in trouble?
How many neocons and repubs have been killed?
What's that you say? None?
Hmm..
No pattern here folks, move along...


edit:grammer

[Tin Man]

105. Well... Hinkley attempted to assassinate Reagan

...and lodged a bullet an inch from his heart, and put a bullet into the brain of Press Secretary James Brady. How does that fit in?

[Cetacea]

106. It doesn't. Reagan lived.

One attempt, and a failure at that.

[Tin Man]

110. I only chose to cite the most obvious exception to your 'pattern'

...there's more. George Wallace was paralyzed by an assassin's bullet while he campaigned for president in 1972. Gerarld Ford survived 2 assassination attempts as president. And in 2005, GWB himself escaped assassination in Tbilisi, Republic of Georgia, when someone in the audience threw a dud grenade at the podium from which he spoke.

So there's 4 additional examples of assassination attempts against important right-wing politicians since the time of RFK's assassination. Maybe this pattern indicate a conspiracy to eliminate powerful right-wing politicians?

[Cetacea]

112. Dud grenades don't count...

...and the rest of the people on your list survived, and weren't even harmed ( excepting Wallace and Reagan). The Ford "attempts" are questionable, or at the very least there really was a "lone nut" involved.
And he wasn't hit, either. I put that one closer to the dud grenade episode.

Still, no dead righters due to assasination. Attempts can easily be staged.

[Sydnie]

113. ROFL Ford was in more danger from golf balls and steps

than he was from Squeaky! :rofl:

edit - typo

[Cetacea]

114. Ha! Reminds me of another Prez.

One that wasn't really elected! Ford had some grasp of the language , though, but damn, he was also a member of that Warren Commision too!

[Tin Man]

115. Bingo - now you're getting warm...

The only pattern I can see in presidential assassins is what you just mentioned - i.e. "the lone nut" link.

John Hinkley shot Reagan in order to 'impress' actress Jody Foster.

Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme was a follower of Charles Manson prior to shooting at Gerald Ford.

Arthur Herman Bremer shot George Wallace, as he wrote in his diary, "to do SOMETHING BOLD AND DRAMATIC, FORCEFULL & DYNAMIC, A STATEMENT of my manhood for the world to see."

Francisco Martin Duran claimed to be saving the world from aliens after shooting 29 rounds from his AK-47 into the Clinton Whitehouse during 1994.

Also in 1994, Frank Eugene Corder expressed to friends his desire to kill himself "in a big way" prior to flying a Cessna 150 into the White House.

.
.
.

From what I see, the only pattern that emerging from recent presidential assassinations and/or attempts is that the assassins mostly seem to suffer from some form of mental illness. Sorry, but I fail to see any 'vast right wing conspiracy' in action here...

[Cetacea]

116. Welcome to DU, Tinman!

But in response to your post, I don't believe I used the words "vast right wing conspiracy". Actually, I haven't used the word conspiracy at all, have I?
The JFK case was too obvious to have been a conspiracy. Successful conspiracies, by definition of the word "conspiracy", go on undetected.

And I would need a list of assassinated Presidents since JFK's to respond to the rest of your post. Just sayin'.

[Tin Man]

117. ...and a big DU welcome for you as well, Artiechoke!

:hi:

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cetacea]

131. We were with John Edwards on election eve

and working the online trenches assisting the folks on the ground in Ohio after the selection. We got a muted response from Carville a few days after when we asked him what was being done about the anomolies. Where were you?
In my haste to post I mispelled grammer and you are accusing me of ...of what exactly? Trying to muddy the waters? Of being a freeper?
I am not responsible for some of the hostility that has arisen on this thread.
What friggin Kool-aid are you referring to?
Please, do not let my low post count throw you. My recently deceased father helped get JFK and many others elected and you might say I have been around elections and the liberal block a few times, so to speak.
I have a hunch that I've been researching the JFK assasination and related subjects longer than you've been in your current life.
And welcome to DU.

[havocmom]

97. There's a book called Best Evidence

Might wanna check it out if you haven't already.

[Cetacea]

99. Great piece of research, thanks!

...and closer to the time and real players than some of the poor research (meant to debunk) that has been recently surfacing, imo.

[johnnie]

123. Robert said he thought the LA mafia was behind John's death

I think Tippet was in on it an quieted.

[Cetacea]

133. I've never heard that one.

Do you have a link ?
Bobby believed in the facts disguised as theory in the book "Farewell,America", written by a French Intelligence Agent and an aide to French President Charles De gaulle.
The book is long out of print but if you google the title you'll find it.

[johnnie]

134. I just saw it tonight

It was on "Justice files" One of Bobby's friends said that Bobby said for sure he thought it was the Louisiana mafia.

[Cetacea]

135. Thank you, Johnnie

I personally have a problem with some of these TV shows that manage to find old friends who shed new light on the deceased. That being said, there maybe something to what you watched after all. Thanks for responding!

[Cetacea]

136. "Farewell, America" : complete text

Long out of print and nowhere to send royalties. Some think that it was a joint effort of The French President and RFK, or at the very least, someone very close to them.

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html

[maine_raptor]

137. Farewell America was de Gaulle's Warren Commission.

When JFK and Jackie visited Paris, de Gaulle was very taken with Jackie. When JFK was killed, he tasked French Intelligence with finding out what happened. The tale is told that some time after the event (66 or 67), de Gaulle had her presented with a copy of the book and a briefing by a French Intelligence officer on it's contents.

It was the main reason why Jackie was very opposed to RFK's running for president when he first announced it.

I still have a first editon copy of that book in my library.

[Cetacea]

143. Thank you

That is incredible that you have a First Edition of that book.

[IndyOp]

141. The TV show is actually based on an excellent book by Thom Hartmann

and Lamar Waldon -- 900+ pages - meticulously sourced, interviews with mafia involved --

Ultimate Sacrifice - John and Robert Kennedy, the Plan for a Coup in Cuba, and the Murder of JFK

From Publishers Weekly
Starred Review. There has been a long hiatus in significant books on the JFK assassination since Gerald Posner's Case Closed argued in 1993 that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Posner took the CIA's lack of involvement for granted, and that, according to this mammoth and painstakingly researched account, was a big mistake. It is Waldron and Hartmann's (The Edison Gene) contention—bolstered by access to many previously unavailable files, and interviews with little-known as well as prominent figures—that the CIA knew a great deal about the assassination. But the agency couldn't admit what it knew because that could uncover the existence of a U.S. plan for a coup in Cuba, run by JFK's brother, Attorney General Robert Kennedy. The assassination, say the authors, was carried out by hired gunmen on the orders of three noted Mafia dons whose lives were being made miserable by RFK's ruthless pursuit—and these Mafia men knew about the planned invasion because they had worked with the CIA on previous efforts to topple Castro. Oswald, long a hidden CIA agent, was set up as the patsy, and it had always been Jack Ruby's job to eliminate him if he wasn't killed at the scene of Kennedy's shooting. How do the authors make their case? With a relentless accumulation of detail, a very thorough knowledge of every political and forensic detail and the broad perspective of historians rather than assassination theorists. They spend perhaps too much time with people they admire, like the late Enrique Ruiz Williams, who was a crucial early source for them. They also cannot resist chasing stories of only marginal relevance to their principal one, like what really happened to Che Guevara in Cuba. But no future historian of that tormented period in American history will be able to ignore their very convincing presentation, even if a lay reader may feel overwhelmed by the sheer weight of the evidence. B&w photos.

[rman]

142. Doesn't say where the plan for a coup in Cuba originated

JFK may have put RFK in charge, but that doesn't mean it was the Kennedy's plan.

It's well documented that JFK wasn't very happy with the Bay of Pigs invasion - he basically caused it to be a failure by not allowing US military support when it was needed to make the invasion succeed. Also the Bay of Pigs thing was plan B, Kennedy had rejected plan A for being to radical.

The mafia was hardly the only group that had an interest in retaking Cuba as their play ground.
In fact if Kennedy's concern with Cuba went no further than planning a coup, then the mafia had reason to support that effort - not to kill the man.
RFK went after CIA training camps involved in the CIA/mafia anti-Castro movement, giving both the mafia and the CIA reason not to like the Kennedys, and shedding a different light on the coup plans.
What the mafia and other interests were upset about, is the fact that Kennedy was looking for peaceful ways of dealing with Cuba (not necessarily removing Castro).

It is also unlikely that the mafia killed JFK on it's own accord because it did not have the means to facilitate several aspects of the assassination: multiple security stand-downs, changing of the route, media coverup, creating Warren Commission.

Hartman's book presents a sub-set of the broader scenario presented by previous works (most notably Griffin/Stone's "JFK"), involving various agencies and the mafia.

[Cetacea]

145. Excellent points

And the CIA did actually admit a few years back that they left the Kennedys in the dark regarding the invasion. He was blamed for something he did not do for all of those years.

[IndyOp]

147. I do not believe that the mafia killed JFK on it's own -

I believe that they had motive, but so did others...

Yes, the Hartmann & Waldron book is, I believe a piece of the puzzle - not the whole story.

I believe that Gore Vidal is right when he said that we 'lost our country' when we let them lie to us about Kennedy's assasination. It is a *very* important topic in my book.

[Cetacea]

144. Forget the mafia

Dig deeper. Think about Texas big OIL, and read " Farewell America",
as it was written by someone who could list which SS agents had how many drinks in the bar the night before the hit.
Even if you buy into the mafia distraction, you ought to be asking yourself who ordered then to do it and how did they get the access to highest levels of the government. "Farewell America" answers these questions, and the book's observations reveal striking simularities between that period in time time and now.

[IndyOp]

146. Artie - I will not "forget the mafia" - but I am happy to also

include the Cubans, the CIA, and especially a young CIA agent who seems to be only one of two people who 'cannot remember' where he was on the day Kennedy was shot -- the link below contains a very, very interesting story about the long-ago past, the recent past, and today...

Kennedy Assassination
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/04/337455.shtml?discuss