Please dont frag me

[Sailor for Warner]

I saw another post making fun of the Freeper implication that we want to sit down at the negotiating table with Al-Q. But what is the plan. We get out of Afg. and Iraq and then what? Im not asking to be snarky, I just wanted to hear some different ideas on how to aproach foreign policy.

[JDPriestly]

1. We stay in Afghanistan. We arrest/capture Bin Laden

And we get out of Iraq. That's the plan. We keep an eye on Pakistan, and we work toward energy independence so that we don't have to cow-tow to Iran and Saudi Arabia. That's the plan.

[NYCGirl]

2. No one is proposing getting out of Afghanistan. How about we find

BinLaden?

[Redstone]

3. The fuck you talking about? The "insurgency" in Iraq is NOT "Al-Q."

It's Iraqis who don't want us there.

Redstone

[Sailor for Warner]

4. Ummmmmmm

At what point did I say the insurgency was Al-Q, show me the quote...Oh wait I never said that read the post again...

[Redstone]

7. Right here:

"we want to sit down at the negotiating table with Al-Q. But what is the plan. We get out of Afg. and Iraq and then what?"

That's where.

Don't play semantic games with me, kiddo, because you'll lose. Just some friendly advice.

Redstone

[Sailor for Warner]

15. Im not Redstone,

Id appreciate you not being a condecending shit either. Perhaps someone else could point out where I say that the Insurgency is the same thing as Al-Qaeda?

"we want to sit down at the negotiating table with Al-Q"
Thats what the Freeps say we want

THEN THERE IS A PERIOD AND A NEW THOUGHT BEGINS

"But what is the plan. We get out of Afg. and Iraq and then what"
And then the new thought ends. So once again, explain how in a sentence where I NEVER ONCE even say the word Insurgency, do you draw such a conclusion?

[Redstone]

18. No. Your words speak for themselves.

Redstone

[Sailor for Warner]

23. No they dont

I asked the question and all your doing is drawing insane conclusions from a question I asked in order to learn a little more about what we are running on this November.

[Redstone]

31. End of discussion. You make a provocative post and don't want to deal

with questions about it? Fine with me; I'm going to bed.

Carry on as you were.

Redstone

[Sailor for Warner]

33. You didnt ask a question,

You made an asshole comment and called me a troll, WTF?

[question everything]

81. Now it is. (nt)

[bluestateguy]

5. I would oppose getting out of Afghanistan

Nor do I know of any Democrat who has advocated doing that; certainly not any Democrat in a position of national leadership over the party.

In any event, it's not the job of the out of power opposition party to come up with a plan for extricating ourselves from this war that the party in power has started and screwed up, at least not until the next presidential election.

[Sailor for Warner]

6. Well thats the question im asking

If we want people to vote for us, we DO need to have a plan. That kind of basic politics.

[NYCGirl]

9. Read this and educate yourself:

http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/MurthaSpeech.htm

[Sailor for Warner]

17. Thanks, good link

[tocqueville]

24. I think Murtha is exactlty right

My plan calls:

-- To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces.
-- To create a quick reaction force in the region.
-- To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines.
-- To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq

you cannot leave by a trickle. Because wen you reach a certain point, you'll get into a weak position and then you will be attacked and your losses will be substential.

Murtha is right : REDEPLOY. Move RAPIDLY the troops OUTSIDE Iraq but stay in the vicinity. Of course Iraq will fall into chaos, but it will do it anyway. A strong presence in the region can therefore calm down people with interventionistic intentions, like Iran etc... besides such a plan can be implemented with international help because the premisses are completely different.

[SPKrazy]

10. Quit Spouting The RW Talking Points

that we don't have a plan

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sailor for Warner]

19. Im just asking the question

I have not really heard the plan, that is why I am asking. I really hate being called a troll. I dont hear the Dems speaking with one voice so I would like to hear some of the ideas that are floating around. Maybe I could answer the question when it is asked in my highly right-wing workspace.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sailor for Warner]

43. Well I do hang out with alot of Repubs all day

The smell rubs off, gotta shower :)

[madokie]

51. some things you just can't wash off

peace

[mitchtv]

12. Democratic Plan ?

"restore competancy" for one thing, "responsiblity" is another goal Strategically? Intall Bill Clinton as Sec of State.

[wtmusic]

8. No negotiating

but might be a good idea to look at exactly why al-Qaeda wants to kill us (it's not because they're crazy, or they have too much time on their hands, or any of the other sorry-ass simplifications/generalizations/stereotypical racist bullshit).

A foreign policy which doesn't arrogantly and pompously ignore the rest of the world would take care of 90% of our problems.

[Redstone]

13. But, WTM, the original poster seems to think that we have an option of

"negotiating with AlQ," as if THAT's the people who are killing our soldiers in Iraq.

It's NOT. It's the run-of-the-mill, everyday Iraqi.

The original post is a thinly-disguised rightwing "talking point."

Redstone

[wtmusic]

20. You know RS

I agree 100% with you on the so-called "insurgency".

But taking Iraq out of the equation, it's a legit question. Al-Qaeda is out there, they still want to kill us. How do we deal with it?

[Redstone]

26. There's nobody to negotiate with! There's no leader! It's not like GM

negotiating with the United Auto Workers union.

So the whole question is utterly pointless.

Redstone

[Sailor for Warner]

28. Once again

The negotiation is just a stupid Freeper crack, that we want to sit down at the Neg. table with Bin-Laden, dont tell me at least one of them hasnt said that to you. I hear that at least once a week.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

72. Yes, some troll has posted that ("negotiate with Bin Laden") on another GD

thread just this evening!

[Sailor for Warner]

73. Ick

your dog is mighty cute!

[Bandit]

120. Even if it wasn't a freeper crack what is wrong with talking?

If you don't talk to those who dislike you it is hard to find out what their problem is and how to fix it. Remember we carried on talks with the North Vietnamese for many many years before we came to agreements. When we left Vietnam everybody won. We are now on very friendly terms with them and no one is dying. Dependence on foreign oil is a problem. Having large Oil Companies dictate foreign policy is a problem. Having Corporations run America is a problem. Using emotion instead of intelligence to govern is a problem. Iraq did nothing to harm America except some big talk. Invading and occupying them is a crime. That is a problem. Is it hard for you to understand these things? That is a lot of America's problem.

[wtmusic]

35. You're right

so negotiation is out of the question, and would be ineffective even if someone did show up who claimed to represent AQ.

My point is to examine the root of the ideology, which has been completely ignored. Echoes of VietNam--when McNamara returned 40 years later only to find out the VC wanted nothing to do with China. Help young Muslim men--listen to them, and we will effectively cut AQ off at the knees.

[Sailor for Warner]

21. Once again, I do not see the connection you are making

Between me saying that

"Getting out of Iraq" is goal of ours is it not?

[maxsolomon]

11. sorry, you're getting fragged

[Schema Thing]

14. Negotiation is always good. America must lose the idea...

this braindead idea that "they hate us for our freedoms". It's fucking ridiculous.

we may hate their methods, but they have legitimate goals. (then again, most of us hate OUR methods, anymore).

[TheFarseer]

22. Use the same strat that toppled the Taliban

We have 235,000 Iraqi security forces. Why the f*ck aren't they doing the heavy lifting with support from us only as needed, hopefully just air power, special forces and guarding the borders? These dumb sh*ts in congress on the right side of the isle confuse any change in strategy for "cut and run" We have a real strategy (well, some of us) and they have stand around and get shot at and hope we don't get blown up for the next 10 or 20 or 50 years. "La la la, I'm not listening politics" is hurting our country. These people need to get the sh*t out of their ears and listen to some different ideas because everyone with a 'D' by their name isn't as stupid as they want to think they are.

[tocqueville]

30. The Iraqi troops aren't reliable

there is a huge difference between them and Massoud's Northern Alliance who hated the Talibans and only needed air support to kick them out.

[sweetheart]

25. change at home first

First, the message is our own change of leadership.

Then ALL military personelle in the stan's and iraq are replaced by UN troops or whatever those
new governments wish. Then the policy is to join the International criminal court, and to empower
the court to charge terrorists and bring them to justice. So the effort previously known as the
waronterror becomes a police action against mass murderers, one that has international legitimacy,
and for that, international cooperation and the moral high ground to unite other nations to the
cause.

If you look at it, all US foreign interventions lead to failed states. Clearly there are stupid people
involved, and by simply replacing the stupid people in charge with smart ones, interventoins can be
recapitulated to bring about equality and justice.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sailor for Warner]

34. NYC, I dont see how my question is crap

I was fragged and called a troll for no reason. I asked an honest question and all I ever get is crap. I dont have the answers, I appreciate all of the ideas presented here, I jsut dont appreciate being called a neocon and a troll.

[NYCGirl]

37. If you've spent any time here at all and read some posts, you'd be aware

that the Murtha plan has been discussed here a lot, along with the Kerry plan and the latest one being presented on the floor of the Senate, the Kerry-Feingold plan.

[Sailor for Warner]

39. Which threads discuss the Murtha-Plan and the Kerry-Feingold

plan?

[Sailor for Warner]

42. Ok got the murtha plan, sorry

But Id like the Kerry plan.

[NYCGirl]

44. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2687829&mesg_id=2687829

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2689181

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2687795

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2686657

[Sailor for Warner]

45. Thanks!!!! n/t

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sailor for Warner]

36. What I am talkign about is that I would like to hear some of the ideas and

plans that people here have for fighting the war. I would like to win over some of the people in my wardroom this year. I want to have some ideas to throw their way. Call bullshit on me all you want, I just want to ask some questions, get some websites to read, etc etc etc.

[me b zola]

47. Then why don't I see you on any of the threads

when we are discussing these issues. Your post asks us to refute the freeps.

[Sailor for Warner]

56. I get on when I can

I will try to get more involved when I have a night like this where I dont have much else going on.

[LoZoccolo]

58. That's not a fair criticism at all.

I've been here for years, and almost everything I post is against the general consensus of DU because I don't like to post things which aren't novel. What's funny is that neither mine nor Sailor's posts run that contrary to mainstream Democratic opinion, just contrary to DU.

My favorite contrarian opinion is that people should get off their ass, leave the house, and do something for the Democratic Party, which gets scant support here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2678140

[Sailor for Warner]

60. Gracias LoZo.

I get fragged everytime I post, people like Redstone jump all over my shit. I work with Repubs all day so I think I am coming here to be with someone who thinks more like me and I get nothing but shit. Oh well ive met enough people who were good to me here to not give up completely :yourock:

[me b zola]

65. A couple of things

The first is that what the OP did was ask us to refute freeps. He asks us to prove why they are wrong and we are right. If I want to do that I will go to a mixed board.

Second, I see a big difference between you and the OP. Not everyone of your posts is in oposition to general consencus--some yes, but not every single one.

[Sailor for Warner]

66. Have you read all of my posts

I asked you to refute the freeps because that is all I hear all day. I agree with most of things on here and post accordingly. I have made two statements that make everyone go apeshit and I spend half my posts explaining myself. Sorry I cant be as enlightened as you, Im jusat trying to get some ammo to fight back.

[me b zola]

85. Ya see, that's the thing

I'm not so friggin enlightened, but I am becoming more so. I limped on to DU thinking that I knew something, but because I had an open mind, I quickly found out that I didn't know much. I didn't ask anyone to do my thinking or research for me, I took it upon myself to do that.

The reason that it is difficult to believe that you are just "trying to get some ammo to fight back" is because of the veracity of some of your other posts where you seem to be trying to school us into the conservative way of thought. There is a wealth of wonderful posters and information here. If you want to refute freepers, sit back and read when you can---you will get more reading than you will know what to do with.

[Sailor for Warner]

87. Well thank you for schooling me on DU manners

Gracias

[me b zola]

88. de nada

[LoZoccolo]

77. So, he asks you to refute the FReeps.

So, we go ahead and do that instead of arguing through dozens of posts about why we shouldn't have to. Or, if it's something that's been talked about extensively, we point out where that discussion should be found.

I've honestly never grokked the amount of paranoia that goes into trying to hunt down people trying to post right-wing talking points here, and trying to take public credit for discovering them rather than letting the moderators do their job. If we've done our homework - and a lot of people have, it just tends to get lost in the sheer volume of bickering, emotions, and idle talk save for the front page (which is one of the best features here) - then something like that gets posted, someone else posts something better to knock it down, and that's that - even the real members here learn a couple new things. The really dangerous disruptors, in my opinion, are the ones who try to goad us into saying ridiculous and extreme things, and wasting our time on futile efforts and arguments. Think about seventhson, probably the king of disruptors, who had gotten us (myself included) letting our time go down the sink trying to argue with his conspiracy theories until he outed himself on election night in 2004.

[Sailor for Warner]

38. What about?

The border, possible terrorists coming in from Canada?

[Old and In the Way]

48. Are you more concerned with a few terrorists than, say, another

Katrina devastating a US city? The money we spend allowing Dick Cheney and his ilk to become multi-millionaires fighting phantom enemies while our infrastructure goes to rot and our kids get a 2nd rate education is a whole helluva lot scarier to me than a few crazy criminals bombing a building or 2. Sorry, I don't buy into the Republican nightmare....because those that perpetuate the fear are busy privitizing our treasury and taking away our civil liberties.

[Sailor for Warner]

52. Good point

But Ive always seen the US Gov's job to keep us safe from outside enemies first, then the common good. But thats just my reading.

[madokie]

55. every single step of the way

[Sailor for Warner]

57. ?

[flyarm]

153. personally i think the worst terrorist we have ever faced in my 54 yr

lifetime are in our white house and republican congress!

bin laden didn't spy on reg americans with the NSA..bin laden nor saddam didn't leave our ports open

and nuclear power plants totally unprotected!

bin laden nor saddam are not selling our airlines to foreigners!

bin laden did't shred our constitution

nor did saddam

bin laden didn't destroy our bill of rights...nor did saddam

bin laden didn't lie us into a war with saddam..and iraq..

bin laden didn't lie to americans about their national security and
the bogus bullshit this admin sells with propaganda every day to americans..

bin laden didn't bankrupt this country..and bin laden didn't loose trillions in our national treasury or the DOD

bin laden did not steal elections in this country

and shit all over our democracy in the name of our own president!

bin laden did not attack this country with anthrax..and yet we still have no answers for that and it was us government anthrax!

bin laden did not let the people who took the "put options " on the airlines prior to 9/11 just get away with it!

bin laden did not attack building 7 in wtc that fell late the afternoon of 9/11 and has never been investigated! that the building was "pulled"!

bin laden did not lie to the american peoiple about the air quality in NYC after 9/11 that is killing the first responders and the volunteers who worked their hearts out ..no our epa under white house direction lied to the american people

ohhh i could easily go on and on...but i think you get my point..

i fear this administration more than any terrorist could ever scare me!~

bin laden did not make us a fascist state ..this administration did and is and so is the republican congress...and they scare the shit out of me!~

fly

[Old and In the Way]

41. Good question.

It's a shame we Democrats need to have a plan to clean up yet another Republican mess....but it seems that we will be confronted with it. My plan would be to exit Iraq ASAP. Democracy is earned by the people, not bestowed by an outside Godfather. If Iraq wants their Democracy, they will have to fight for it. Personally, I think we've destroyed any chance Iraq had to move from a secular socialist society to a democracy. We've radicalized the religious fundies and enhanced the fuedalistic warlords who'll shuff that option out.

So, we get out of Iraq and start to refocus on our #1 problem: energy. We need to redevelop our economy and we can do that by creating a new energy economy that is based on alternative/renewable energies. We create policies that drive a new Manhatten Project to replace internal combustion engines for our transportation sector and decentralize our energy grids by funding solar/thermal strategies for homeowners. That will have the added bonus of creating quality jobs that we need here and will have the added benefit of making our national security not dependent on protecting sealanes for shipping oil. We need to rein in the MIC....for our own good. We start this by reallocating our budget priorities. I'd halve our military spend immediately and reinvest in education and funding the engine to wean ourselves off of Big Oil.

We need to reintegrate with the international community and get over ourselves as the arrogant stealer of other people's resources under the guise of political superiority. If we don't, we will collapse under an unsustainable military budget that sucks the lifeblood out of our society and economy. The Project for a New American Century guarantees that this New America will become a 2nd world player.

[madokie]

46. Well said.

when I go trolling I usually hope to take my catch home for supper but I think this one is a bottom feeder
and we all know you don't eat those.

[Ohio Joe]

99. I'd suggest one minor change to your plan

I expect we could easily reduce the military budget by 3/4 instead of 1/2 and still be able to defend ourselves. Otherwise, an excellent post, I would even say worthy of being posted on it's own so it could be recommended.

[ItNerd4life]

113. I completely disagree!

I don't think your "In the Way" :D Old maybe, but not in the way.

Related to your post, I think it's an excellent way of putting it and I wish our leaders would start presenting it that way!

[Old and In the Way]

146. You pissed me off....

until I read your message! :-)

Thanks. I wish they would too. They could contrast and frame our vision so easily-

Republicans = Big Oil = Wars without End = Dead End
Democrats = Alternative/Rebewable Energy = Jobs = A Real Future for Kids

[Sailor for Warner]

49. I like the Murtha plan

But Id like to see a plan to deal with the Iranian threat to "seize control" of the Strait of Hormuz. We loose Hormuz we wont be able to have a Phased Deployment anywhere.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

50. How about we mind our own business and not invade other nations without

provocation or justification?

That'd be a pretty good start! And it would cost a lot less lives and money than the current one!

[Sailor for Warner]

54. Well thats a big fucking Duh

I am asking what are we goign to be doing instead of invading other countries.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

61. What's wrong with stopping our unjustified, disastrous, invasion first, as

a first priority?

Why do we need to "do" something else, in terms of foreign policy?

Since Bush and the Republicans have been busy saying "FU" to the rest of the world the last several years, we could emphasize as a theme "rejoining the community of nations".

We can spend money on national infrastructure like levees, and researching alternatives to petro-energy.

We can spend money on improving security at ports and borders.

[Sailor for Warner]

62. Thats exactly what Im talking about

And I never said there was anything wrong with that being our first priority. But we leave Iraq we still do need a long term strategy to fight terrorism. Thats what I was curious about. I hear all day that we have no plan and have no answer to that. I wanted to have some ammo this time.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

63. What's wrong with using intelligence services, small scale special forces

ops, etc. like before?

There's no indication waging war and occupying countries is successful or even not counterproductive in terms of stopping terrorism. Large scale military ops like Iraq is clearly not the answer, since terrorism is not a NATION.

It's really an intelligence thing and not foreign policy.

If Bush admin had done everything to heed intelligence pre 9/11, they could make a better case for their hamfisted imperial military approach, or that the old way of treating this like an intelligence service issue was no longer valid, but they didn't even come close to proving that case.

[Sailor for Warner]

67. I didnt advocate waging war and occupation

But "what we were doing before" didnt help us in the Embassy Bombings or the USS COLE either. Im a fan of getting aggressive on terror, but by assistance, training, and SF if neccesary for surgical strikes. Thats my ideas.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

71. Things like Embassy bombings and USS Cole will happen from time to

time.

Even if you made some kind of Stalinesque/Hitleresque Orwellian police state as Bushco is trying to do, you couldn't guarantee someone couldn't make a fertilizer bomb and blow something up.

You just can't do it.

You can't make a country, or the world, 100 percent immunne from terrorism. It's an act that desperate people resort to.

So there's nothing wrong with your ideas, and they are way different from the empire building we are engaged in.

But a key point is "100 percent victory in war on terror/no more terrorism" is just not possible. It's absurd on its face.

It's like saying "100 percent immune from infectious disease" unless you live in some kind of hermetically sealed bubble and don't eat food.

[flyarm]

154. and building 14 bases and an embassy the size of the vatican

in iraq won't help us either ..it will only be a new vietnam..with no way out..

and i do not see the lines to sign up for this madness!

this is fucked up madness..greed for oil..you can white wash it anyway you would like..but this is agression for greed!


and illegal as hell..

how many on a black wall in DC are you willing to accept this time????????
this reminds me of hitler ..thinking he had the right to take over any damn country he wanted!!

not im my name damn it...

not in my name!

fly

[uppityperson]

68. What makes "terrorists" tick, so to speak?

There will always always be a fringe that need no reason for hurting others. Best thing to do is evaluate how much threat there really is and protect yourself in correlation (like you are more likely to die in a car accident than terrorist thingy so drive safely and defensively, seat belts, no alcohol, etc). So, now the question is, what does the next (radical, fundamentalist of whatever race, creed, color, sex, toenail length) want, what are they willing to do to get it. And then come down to the garden variety "I want to hurt you" people and figure out what they want and how to help them achieve it. Is it adequate food, housing, ability to earn enough to live beyond survival and have a decent family/social structure along with not dieing young due to lack of health care, etc? Well, get going on that.

So, what is needed? How the hell do we stop those with from abusing those without?

[Sailor for Warner]

70. Some of them are not going to be appeased

Some really do just want to kill us. Not even close to all of them, but some.

[uppityperson]

78. Charlie Manson

of course, as I said, there will be a fringe that will want to kill and harm. etc. There will not be appeased. However, consider the real risks of everything. Why is 2900 people dying suddenly worse or more horrific than that number dying 1 by 1 by 5 by 1 (car accidents for instance)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

79. Did poster #68 say they wanted to appease them?

[Sailor for Warner]

80. Nahh forgot to self delete

posted it before he clarified. :grouphug:

[uppityperson]

147. "she" and I clarified in the first sentence of that post #68you replied to

"There will always always be a fringe that need no reason for hurting others. Best thing to do is evaluate how much threat there really is and protect yourself in correlation (like you are more likely to die in a car accident than terrorist thingy so drive safely and defensively, seat belts, no alcohol, etc)." per post #68.

And you do realize that if I were to go back and edit it, change things, add or delete stuff, that the post would have a big red Edited thing in it? Here, I'll post this and show you.

Now to edit and add this. See the edited notice.

So, please read the whole message before responding, it saves us all time and energy.

Again, from post #68 "So, what is needed? How the hell do we stop those with from abusing those without?" Are you a Have or a Have not? How to equal it out better? Ideas?

[wtmusic]

89. Why?

Do you have any idea why they want to kill us? (Hint: it's not because they "hate us for our freedoms...")

[Sailor for Warner]

91. No they hate our decadent western culture

Is one pretty good reason. Another is constantly messing with their govt, but the really hardcore ones really jsut dont care much for our culture permeating their culture and invading on their turf.

[wtmusic]

110. This is the problem

Read the original statements by OBL. Nothing to do with our "decadent Western culture", all to do with invading their turf and oppressing their people.

The "decadent Western culture" bullshit is a media fabrication.

It would help if Americans truly understood their motives. Of course, this is exactly what the administration doesn't want you to do.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

[Sailor for Warner]

111. Yeah I know about the Saudi Arabia thing

And then he ramped up the Israel Rhetoric too. Read some of the stuff Kahmeni says though, hes not too down with western culture and hes pretty big on the whole terrorism support thing. The point is that Western Style Democratic Secularism IS an affront to Crazy Fundementalist Islam and if you look at the history of Islamic culture, they rode the secularist train for a while but never really got to far away from Autocracy or Oligarcy. Especially the Arab states.

[wtmusic]

122. Those people exist

certainly the Taliban would fall into that category (I'm not sure you can call the US "democratic secularism" when the president admits he gets his orders to invade from God, though).

It's very easy, for most Americans, to lump everyone with a turban together, and the "crazy" label also helps eliminate the possibility that there could be any legitimacy--not for his actions--but for his point of view.

[Sailor for Warner]

129. Oh heck no I dont do that

I actually have a very intense love for Arab culture (you should see my house), I sort of see what happened through the lens of History. Orson Scott Card put it best in one of his novels explaining what happened to the Muslim world "We were masters of the world for nearly a millenium, our dogs were better educated than the scholars of the West. Then one day we looked around and we were illiterate, poor and the West has all the guns, so we fought back"

[Hubert Flottz]

53. dAnn needs a good Frigging!

I can tell it's been a while...

[Sailor for Warner]

59. BTW

I am fairly new here for everyone who says "if youve spent any time here" well I havent, ive been a memnber for only a few weeks.

[Hubert Flottz]

64. We don't really give a good rat's ass what the Freepers think ...

because they're MORANS!(thinking requires some sort of a brain, which I don't think most Freeper slugs and worms have)

Bush and the Neocons cut and ran from the real 9/11 attackers and their bosses in Afghanistan and attacked a bottled up country that posed only an imagined, trumped up threat! The DoD could have put a lot more soldiers in Afghanistan and mopped up, but they had bigger ideas and plans, than catching the real people behind 9/11, who still BTW, run as wild and free as a bird! The war in Afghanistan should have been over in 2003 and Iraq was invaded over a pack of neocon lies! If you're worried about the assholes at Freeperville, please explain to them what I've told you.

Thank you and good night and goodbye...

[Sailor for Warner]

69. My question

Is why we are kissing Pakistans ass, most of the "bad guys" are hiding there. But since the situation is deteriorating in Afg. they are coming home.

[Hubert Flottz]

74. Ask Bush he's the one kissing the dictator of Pakistan's ass...

That man is a murderer, but the neocons love him. Saddam trusted the neocons too and look how he ended up. The neocons will kill, or suck, or kiss, whatever it takes, to steal what they want.

[newspeak]

148. now, there's a question

What was the connection between Atta and Gen. Malmoudi (sp)-why did Pakistan's general allegedly wire 100,000 to Atta? Why did we forgive Pakistan's debt to the US? And, how involved is ISI--and did a Pakistan based bank (BCCI) deal in drug and terrorism money laundering? Remembering Iran-Contra, BCCI and some of the member's in the present administration and Reagan's that were involved, how are certain members of our own goverrnment tied to certain entities, in not only Pakistan, but in other countries of the ME?

[Sailor for Warner]

150. I know, when I joined

There was no way in hell we would go within 200 miles of a Pakistani ship now we operate with them, share info with them, treat them with the same maritime camraderie that we give to, say NATO navies. Wierd.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

75. By the way, when you start, or TITLE a post "don't frag me" it is regarded

as AUTOMATIC flamebait red alert warning to most DUers, and for good reason I think.

A "stylistic" point you should consider! ;)

"A undercover cop has got to be Marlon Brando. To do this job you got to be a great actor. You got to be naturalistic. You got to be naturalistic as hell. If you ain't a great actor you're a bad actor, and bad acting is bull shit in this job."

[rocktivity]

76. Bin Laden is home in Saudi Arabia if he really is smart

That's the one play Georgie can't look.

If bin Laden is brilliant enough to have masterminded the WTC attacks, why would he be stupid enough to hang out in Afghanistan and wait for Bush to come after him?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Jed Dilligan]

82. Take the military off the "counterterrorism" task

We could fight and prevent terrorism best with a network of spies. Bombing countries only recruits terrorists.

Your question sounds to me like, what will we do with our big useless military when we pull out of today's wars?

Maybe replace it with some honest version of the welfare program it is.

[Sailor for Warner]

83. Whoah

I wouldnt quite say I am on Welfare there :hurts:

[Jed Dilligan]

84. Okay then...

Workfare.

You are a government dependent doing makework.

[Sailor for Warner]

86. Eh

I can take that. :dunce:

[MyNameGoesHere]

90. Why ask us?

You are in the military? Wardroom? (officer?) Global War on Terror ribbon? Really. Go play with someone else.

[Sailor for Warner]

92. I am asking you

Because this is the place I would go to find out what other people of my political inclinations think since as I have stated a thousand times now, I work in a mostly conservative occupation (Naval Officer) in the most Conservative part (Jacksonville/Duval County) of a right of center state (Florida). So as you can imagine, I dont get a lot of exposure to progressive thought in the average day (even at Temple I have never seen so many Jewish Republicans in one place). So I would think that all of the Descriptors you gave of me in the referenced post would give you mroe reson to help me out, not less.

[MyNameGoesHere]

97. I am sure

the "organization" you belong to is having a good laugh on this. What, no beer bash lunch today at the o club? I am sorry I just don't buy it when posters ask these types of questions. It is usually an attempt to the take posts made by people here and use them to make us seem like we are supporting AQ. If i was still in the military, i would be more worried about how commander cookoobannas was going to get me killed. And by the way last I heard J'ville has radio, tv, internet and libraries. I do not believe it has been cut off from the outside yet.

[Sailor for Warner]

101. Yes thats what I am doing

Youve got me cornered, I am a mole trying to get some fun things to make fun of liberals and get you to look like you support AQ. :sarcasm:

If you know of any progressive TV or Radio in Jax please enlighten me, the closest I have found is FOlio Weekly, and that is mostly entertainment news and local politics. I cant go to meetings and such becasue I take my obligation to the UCMJ very seriously to avoid attendance at all openly political rallies where I as an officer could be seen as opposing the President or SecDef in public (i.e. I cant march against the war and scream Bush is a Bastard) or something. DU is a place where I can engage in some light discourse and maybe even toe the line a little ir relative anonymity. I am sorry that you feel the need to apply your previous bad experiences with a few assholes to me, but I am simply a man who wishes to learn and I am not going to give up just because some people dont want to answer the question and instead scream: "Troll! Troll!" :rant:

BTW, Jacksonville's O-club sucks, too many flyboys :toast: :patriot:

[MyNameGoesHere]

124. Ok i will play

Resign your commission now and show them that you are not part of the evil. But do not come here trying to make us your monkey. (Thanks to Jon Stewart)

[Sailor for Warner]

130. Cant

I owe them 3 more years. I am their monkey. I dont want anyone to be mine bcause then we would just sit around and throw shit at each other. ;)

[MyNameGoesHere]

138. So do you really

believe in the time of war that laws are silent? So much ammo and he is still here.

[Sailor for Warner]

141. Its true isnt it

Isnt that what we are all complaining about. The law fall silent in wartime. I dont think its right but it dosent make it any less true.

[dogday]

93. So we stay and just keep dying and not

making any progress, and spending our citizen's money and lives on a lie? Then what?

[Sailor for Warner]

94. Huh?

When did I say anything like that?

[dogday]

95. You said the following

But what is the plan. We get out of Afg. and Iraq and then what?

My response was the opposite of yours, saying if we stay, then what?

[Sailor for Warner]

98. I am not advocating staying so I dont see how I need to defend what

I do not believe...
Unless we are playing a game of "know thine enemy" :smoke:

[dogday]

100. You asked that question?

I ask the other question.. What is the plan if we stay? I am just discussing the issue you brought up...

No games here, I don't understand your last line... Were you playing a game? I was being very serious.. What happens if we stay as opposed to what happens to if we leave?

[Sailor for Warner]

102. I dont know what happens if we stay, I know its goign to

Get bad for us in the military, I know that we are not paying attention to the Iran situation like we should. I know we are not focusing on China like we should. I know that alot more people will die before this gets any better if it gets better at all. Thats all I know, but then again, that is not what I have been putting alot of thought into because I know it is something that we should not do (stay in Iraq that is) I do think that we need to stay in Afg until we can get a bead on Bin Laden, alive, so he can be tried. Thats what I think. Let me know what you think :popcorn:

[dogday]

145. I have a personal vested interest in the Iraq War..

My Son serves there and will finish his tour in November.. Actually he is on his two week leave right now...

What I think is I just don't see a future in staying there.. It is like a nest of hornets, one attacks, then the other and the other until you get the hell away from the nest....

[Sailor for Warner]

149. Ive been there twice

And I agree, it is madness many time over.

[Catherine Vincent]

96. You should be asking the freepers what their plan is.

The Democrats aren't the ones that got us into this mess. Their illegitimate president did.

[Sailor for Warner]

103. But if the Dems get elected in Nov

It will be our "mess" to get out of. Or do you think everything is just going to be perfect the second the Dems get control.

[Catherine Vincent]

132. The Dems will get us out, don't worry.

No matter what it is, they'll do a better job than those idiots in charge now.

[Ganja Ninja]

104. Here's what we do.

We get out of Iraq and forget about bringing Democracy to the Iraqi's. Since al Qaeda is only in Iraq because we're there, whichever faction finally ends up ruling Iraq will most likely rid themselves of al Qaeda at the first opportunity. Further more when we leave Iraq most if not all the al Qaeda fighters will head for Afghanistan where we should be fighting them in the first place.

Then we bring Democracy to America by getting rid of the crooked, unverifiable voting machines and replacing them with machines that print ballots which give us a physical record of the voters intent.

Last but not least we placate our friends and allies by turning over our war criminals for trial by the world court.

[Sailor for Warner]

108. Do you really think...

That any US Politician would have the stones to turn over a US Citizen for trial in a foreign court. I am not very up on the World Court, but what kind of trial system do they use there. What kind of rights are given to the accused. My wife can only tell me about EU Law but she is neer to fond of that.

[Ganja Ninja]

125. We turn over Bush, Cheney, Rummy, and the rest of the ..

PNAC crowd. As far as our military goes we handle that ourselves. And I don't give a damn if right wingers don't like it.

[kiki]

127. No offense,

but that is some Grade 'A' right-wing horse pocky you're chattin' there. This idea that American justice is "better" (for some never-specified reason - like all right-wing ideas, it's pulled straight from the speaker's ass) than European or international justice is one I've heard many times from self-proclaimed Bushbots. Like the idea that Americans are somehow more "free" than, say, the British or the French, it's based on absolutely nothing, apart from the fact that everyone's heard it because it gets repeated ad nauseam by stupid, stupid people.

"What rights are given to the accused"? I think you might want to try asking that question of the justice system in your own back yard, particularly under the current junta.

But hey, I live in the UK, so what do I know about "justice" or "freedom"? Why, the Queen could walk in here right now and cut my head off with her own royal gold-plated beheading axe, just because she felt like it... If only I was Amur'can... :eyes:

[Sailor for Warner]

133. I never said anything about the UK or France specifically

But I know sometimes when nations try to agree on stuff (i.e. EU and World Court) The Ideals get lost in the mix. I am not making a values jusdgement on British Justice, I am saying that I personally (along with a hell of alot of americans) dont trust an international court anymore than an american court and would prefer that we show the world that we recognize our problems and can police ourselves.

BTW, Are you a Liberal Dem or Labor? I was asking because I have a cousin who is talking about ditching Labor and I dont really know what she is talking about and dont really have a comparison in my mind from which to draw parallels.

[kiki]

140. No offense again...

...to anyone here, but "a hell of alot of americans" believe a whole bunch of shit that isn't true, especially these days. As I said, no actual reason is ever defined by Americans who make this argument, so rather than just believing it because all your friends do, you could try reading up on it and finding out whether it's actually, ya know, true. You might even find that the justice system or any number of other things in other countries are - shock, horror - actually better than they are in the Land of the Free.

Personally I have trouble finding someone to vote for. My housemate works for the Lib Dems, so he's always making their case. I was raised to vote Labour, and I was cool with that, but once they got in power, for some reason their leader decided to hook up with a giggling genocidal maniac and wage a morally repugnant aggressive war, so that kinda put a bit of a downer on it for me.

[Sailor for Warner]

142. Well I love to read

But my wifes EU Law book is something like 980 pages just for Vol. 1. I honeslty dont have the time or the mental stamina to leaf through that monster. Right now im just taking her word for it. But someday I will get 'round to it. Thanks for the info.

[Sailor for Warner]

135. HAHA Just thought of something, I hope your get the reference

"Why, the Queen could walk in here right now and cut my head off with her own royal gold-plated beheading axe, just because she felt like it... "

"Tea and Cake....or DEATH" "Um Cake please!"

[Mandate My Ass]

105. Yesterday it was "If I was an Iraqi I'd be sharply saluting old glory"

Today, this shit.

[Sailor for Warner]

106. Are you kidding me

I said yesterday that if I were an Iraqi I would be working to build a governemnt for my country.

Today I ask what ideas people have re: what happens when we get out of Iraq, what is the plan for fighting terrorism, how do we get the world back on track.

Why am I even wasting my time, I dont owe you any explination.

[Mandate My Ass]

109. I know why you'e wasting your time -- and ours

but the rules prohibit me from saying it. :hi:

[Sailor for Warner]

112. I know I know

Im an eveil Republican troll, there I said it for you.
:hi:

:party: come to my coming out party

[Mandate My Ass]

114. Evil? Don't flatter yourself.

The rest of the description sounds about right though. :-)

[Sailor for Warner]

117. I love you too

:hug:

[ldf]

107. i know this is totally stupid

but it has never stopped me before. :-)

how about we say:

we're sorry, mr. saddam. you are a shit, an evil bastard, but we invaded and occupied your country for a pack of lies.

before we did that, you, with your heavy fist, managed to keep all the demons we have loosed, under control.

we have now created the worst possible scenario, a new middle eastern state that will be ruled by sharia law. western style democracy doesn't stand a chance in that environment.

besides, we lied. we weren't trying to bring you western style democracy, we were only trying to deliver your oil fields to halliburton.

previously, your citizens were some of the most educated in the region. you had economic commerce, in spite of our sanctions. women were not forced to wear burkas. the religion of islam was NOT the rule. in fact, there was actually religious tolerance.

now, your country is in shambles, we are stealing your oil, and you don't even have drinkable water, or electricity to rebuild your society.

yes, you abused your citizens, but it is up to THEM to rectify that, not us.

on top of that, all our soldiers have died in vain, but not because of you, but because of the lies of george w. bush. not another life should be sacrificed for his lies.

so, in apology, we offer you back iraq. and to sweeten the pot, you can also have afghanistan. you did so well in iraq, lets see if you can deal with the taliban. we know you can accomplish what we will never be able to.

we're sorry.

george w. bush screwed up, big time, and the american people do not want to have live under his warped version of what is right for america. for what he has given us, in iraq, is totally divorced from any concept related to america.

forgive us.

[Sailor for Warner]

116. Neh

Do you think the middle east will ever really be ready for democracy or has the west screwed them up too bad?

[ldf]

126. they will only be ready for it

when they WANT it. we can't MAKE them want it.

that was the thinking that got us into this mess.

democracy has to be attractive enough for them to want to be a part of it.

right now, as the (alleged) premier democracy on the planet, we are nothing more than "the ugly americans".

and the populace has to want it bad enough to tolerate the pains of getting it. it can never be forced.

but again, that's just my stupid way of thinking.

:shrug:

[Sailor for Warner]

131. Not stupid at all

Well thought and provocative thank you :party:

[Ksec]

115. The dumbasses believe Iraq and alqaeda are the same thing

If you start from their position it makes sense. If you start from facts their position is ridiculous.

Dont allow them to start from that position. Correct them EVERY TIME . Never allow that to go unanswered and corrected. Its the only way to beat their propaganda down.

[Sailor for Warner]

119. Noone in my wardroom is that stupid

They are all reasonably educated men and women with access to classified information, they have a good idea of what is up, they just see it through a different lens. :smoke:

[Ksec]

121. So then we can start from a factual position

Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. The war was a loser the minute we invaded and all its done is create terrorists and start a civil war within Iraq.

Nobody on the Dem side is saying we should pull out of Afgan . So thats a no starter, and has nothing to do with the facts.

I support a pullout of Iraq because of two reasons. Its creating millions of new terrorists, and we are now no more than a target with no clear plan or vision. What does victory in Iraq mean? Killing everyone who hates us? Thats about 90% of the country. Its a no win situation and its costs in lives and our bank should never have happened, let alone continue indefinetly. Terrorism cant be beaten with conventional warfare.

[Sailor for Warner]

123. I thought it was the other way around

We want out of IRAQ
And stay in Afganistan and find Bin Laden

???

[Ksec]

128. I corrected that

[Sailor for Warner]

134. Got it thanks

:bounce:

[leeroysphitz]

118. If you want to hear alternatives to our current foreign policy...

You're going to have to work to elect new leaders like everyone else. Bottom line.

[ProfessorGAC]

136. Who Wants To Negotiate With al Qaeda?

We negotiate with other nation states, not groups of radicals with a beef! I haven't heard anybody suggest that the alternative to getting out of an occupation of a sovreign nation is the opposite of negotiating with radicals. The only way that logic works if one is the natural alternative to the first.

I think the clear alternative is to start thinking hardball against those nations that are our "friends" who fund these groups. It's cheaper, likely far more effective, and more honorable, than dropping bombs on civilians.
The Professor

[Sailor for Warner]

139. Ive only been in Saudi Arabia for a short visit

But ive been in Bahrain on many a Thursday (some of you know what I mean) and I would LOVE to see us play hardball with the Saudis, arrogant, lying sons of bitches.

Corr: for wording to clarify my meaning

[ProfessorGAC]

144. And Like I Said. . .

. . .it's cheaper than smart bombs!

In fact, if we put sanctions on them, and the price of oil rose 25%, it would be less expensive for the U.S. government to subsidize the cost of gasoline, than to spend $1 billion per week in Iraq.
The Professor

[MyNameGoesHere]

152. Hmm I lived in

Saudi for 2 years and found the people to be reasonable as long as i didn't act like an american ass. Bahrain was just another western playground where they shed their beliefs to cater to american interests. Drinking, womanizing, and decadence to keep the american dollar there.

[rucky]

137. stay close...

Ever notice how the US never seems to ask other countries "How can we help?"

[ComerPerro]

143. Hey, they have the power, its their war, what is their plan?

[ikri]

151. Consider

That the insurgency in Iraq consists of two parts:

a) The general population who simply want rid of the US & allies with a return to home rule
b) A small number of AQ-style fighters intent on attacking western interests

When Britain announced it's intent to leave India in the 1940's the movement to overthrow British rule vanished very quickly since their goal had been reached there was little reason to fight. If the US & allies announce that they are going to leave Iraq we'd probably see exactly the same, the level of resentment to the US & allies would drop considerably and the Iraqi police forces could better cope with the smaller insurgent groups left over.

Unfortunately, there's a chance that leaving would spark some violence from groups intent on seizing greater power in Iraq for their own ends, whether that be autonomy for the Kurds or Shariah law for those that like that sort of thing. The Iraqi police force must be backed initially by the UN and peacekeeping troops, as long as they are truly seen as peacekeepers and not occupiers. Russian, Chinese, African and Middle Eastern countries should be used as peacekeepers since they wouldn't have the stigma of occupiers, funding for these troops would probably have to come from the countries currently involved in Iraq.

It would require an inordinate amount of diplomacy however, and the * administration only knows how to threaten.