US BILL up this week would ALLOW TORTURE for evidence, long-term holding

[Nothing Without Hope]

The defense spending bill has been held up because of the successful fight over the ANWR drilling provision that had been slipped into it, but the article I've excerpted here says that the policy bill including this appalling torture provision " is expected to get Senate approval."

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=FT&Date=20051220&ID=5366198
December 20, 2005 03:12 AM ET

US law would let torture be used for evidence

Congress could approve this week legislation that would permit indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay based on evidence obtained through torture.

The law would allow military judges at Guantánamo to consider whether evidence obtained by coercive methods was admissible in determining whether a prisoner should be classified as an "enemy combatant".

The measure, included in two defence bills already approved by the House and awaiting Senate approval, would also restrict the rights of prisoners at the detention centre to appeal against their detention to US courts.

(snip)

"{The measure} implicitly allows the use of evidence that is obtained through torture for the first time ever in American history," said Jennifer Daskal, US advocacy director for Human Rights Watch. " it cuts off one of the best enforcement and monitoring mechanisms of the McCain amendment because it prohibits detainees from ever bringing any suit alleging that they have been tortured or abused."

(snip)

Said Jennifer Daskal, US advocacy director for Human Rights Watch: "The most dramatic story is that the same legislation that passes the McCain amendment – which is this historic bill on torture – has this other provision, which undercuts it in two ways."

If passed, detainees could appeal to US courts ONLY AFTER being sentenced to death, declared enemy combatants, or for MORE THAN 10 (TEN) YEARS' IMPRISONMENT.

It would allow the military judges to decide whether evidence obtained by torture was admissable in cases.

Detainees would be forbidden to EVER sue over their allegations that they were tortured or abused.

THIS APPALLING, MONSTROUS BILL REVISION IS THE GRAHAM-LEVIN AMENDMENT. SEE THE FULL HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH PRESS RELEASE IN REPLY #7.

THIS MUST MUST MUST NOT PASS!!!!

[EFerrari]

1. I can't believe an American stateman could even WRITE such a thing.

Who authored it? This is insane.

And, you know, I don't trust the McCain shadow dance: "The most dramatic story is that the same legislation that passes the McCain amendment – which is this historic bill on torture – has this other provision, which undercuts it in two ways."

I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth and it would be no surprise if he were complicit in this shell game.

[Nothing Without Hope]

2. I surely agree with you about McCain's possible complicity and

utter lack of integrity. He's eaten up with ambition and he's dirty dirty dirty. It would be just like him to shout very loudly and piously how he opposes torture and then turn around and help this sneak through. Appalling but entirely believable.

[EFerrari]

3. If he's a maverick, I'm the Second Coming.

I wonder who wrote this thing. Maybe HRW has something at their site. I'm going to go look.

[IndyOp]

67. Jesus? Is it you?

You said you might be the Second Coming --> ;)

[dogday]

77. How do you trust a Man who leaves his

first wife for a second because she is rich. Values, sure, they have the green values. It is all about money and power....

[nofurylike]

4. all this time i kept saying, "ANWR is a blind. what are they pulling off

while we're distracted by it?"
many things, of course, but this?!! THIS IS INSANE!!!

now what?! now what do we do?! we spent so much time and effort working to get dems to stop ANWR drilling. they did and then voted to pass the rest of the bill. true?

aren't those defense bills now passed, today?

help us all


peace

[EFerrari]

5. At the HRW website:

U.S.: Landmark Torture Ban Undercut
Congress Would Allow Evidence Obtained by Torture

(Washington, D.C., December 16, 2005) – Even as the U.S. Congress has passed a prohibition against the use of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, it is set to adopt legislation that would strip the judiciary’s ability to enforce the ban, Human Rights Watch warned today.

After months of opposition, President Bush yesterday accepted Senator John McCain’s amendment banning the use of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment by U.S. personnel anywhere in the world, and prohibiting U.S. military interrogators from using interrogation techniques not listed in the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation.

But the legislation containing the McCain Amendment currently includes another provision – the Graham-Levin Amendment – that would deny the five hundred-some detainees in Guantánamo Bay the ability to bring legal action seeking relief from the use of torture or cruel and inhumane treatment. And it implicitly authorizes the Department of Defense to consider evidence obtained through torture or other inhumane treatment in assessing the status of detainees held in Guantánamo Bay.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/16/usdom12311.htm

The Graham - Levin Amendment. And it seems to be limited to the prisoners at Gitmo. But in this climate, who knows if it's a limitation at all.

[Nothing Without Hope]

9. We are thinking along the same lines - I've just posted the entire HRW

press release (reply #7).

We have to move fast. I haven't seen this on DU before - have you? This could be put into law very fast indeed. I just saw it the first time in a post in today's AllHatNoCattle.net issue.

I hope it gets voted up and the media and Congress blasting is LOUD AND UNRELENTING!

[EFerrari]

12. I haven't seen ANYTHING at all? n/t

[nofurylike]

10. since anyone can be taken to gitmo, and since they can define torture

with "good faith reliance on the advice of counsel" (quote from the amendment provided by Amnesty International), it really isn't limited at all.


do you know, did this not pass wednesday?


peace

[EFerrari]

13. I don't know. Still looking. n/t

[nofurylike]

14. found this. going before the house at 4 today!

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/13462632.htm

Katrina yes; ANWR noSTAFF AND WIRE REPORTS

-snip-

After failing to secure the 60-vote majority needed to pass the defense bill with the ANWR plan, the Senate Republican leadership dropped the drilling proposal and the bill passed. The House, which had passed the defense bill with ANWR, is expected to agree to drop the measure when it reconvenes today at 4 p.m.

-snip-

***

[Nothing Without Hope]

17. It's sounding like this GRAHAM-LEVIN amendment is STILL THERE

They will take out ANWR drilling because too many people found out about that - but this appalling amendment seems to be sllipping in under the radar!!!

I sure hope I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any sign of this being removed.

[EFerrari]

19. I think you are exactly right. n/t

[EFerrari]

18. Now I'm really confused.

The measure first passed the House on Sunday, right?

Today, the Senate passed the Defense Appropriations bill, which contains this amendment.

But, tomorrow, the House will revisit their work of Sunday and drop the ANWR portion?

:crazy:

[Nothing Without Hope]

21. Because of the change, House has to pass again - see the wording in

the WaPo article you directed me to - I've excerpted it downthread (reply #20).

[nofurylike]

25. yes. they are so cunning. scheming. and why weren't dems shuoting

about this part. collaborating in covering it with the other parts?

this is freaky.

thank you, Nothing Without Hope for knowing this, bringing this to us, and keeping on this!!

now what?

contact house members?

wow...


peace and solidarity!

[EFerrari]

29. Yes, contact House members.

I am just stunned. Not a word about this.

Maybe we can start another thread later in the morning (it's 2:45 in CA).

[Nothing Without Hope]

33. Let the SOBs know that THEY WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR PROMOTING

TORTURE.

Call and fax House members. Don't let them get away with this atrocity!!!!

[nofurylike]

36. i am stunned too, sfexpat2000. i will start an "URGENT" referring to this

thread for info, in...what? 3 hours or so?

i can't believe dems didn't say a word on this. all taking all kind of credit about ANWR and all

and pat act extension passing behind closed doors too.

damn them!! i was thanking them all today.


peace and solidarity!

[EFerrari]

43. NWH's new thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5665453

[Nothing Without Hope]

45. I've posted it as a headsup to this thread - we need MAJOR ACTION

on this IMMEDIATELY!!! We need to have those phones and fax machines going berserk!!! The House vote will probably be TODAY!!! (Thursday)

[nofurylike]

50. thank you! moving over to that one. eom

[Nothing Without Hope]

31. So far we only have one vote out of five required for visibility on the

Greatest Page - please consider voting for this thread and do what you can to push the truth. Media-blast, fax and email your House Reps!!!! The HOUSE STILL HAS TO VOTE ON IT, and it may happen TODAY!!!

The Dems have had plenty of time to read about the Graham-Levin Amendment. So did McCain. At a minimum, they are NOT DOING THEIR JOBS.

And our "FREE PRESS" has not only compliantly suppressed the truth this appalling legislation, but is actively LYING about what the bill will do about torture, claiming that it protects against it.

[nofurylike]

42. done. on greatest. sorry i forgot to rec, so blown away. peace! eom

[EFerrari]

6. HuffPo Article: Martin Garbus 12/16

An Incredible Day in America

Today, for two separate reasons, has been an incredible day in America. First, the United States has legitimized torture and secondly, the President has admitted to an impeachable offense.

First, the media has been totally misled on the alleged Bush-McCain agreement on torture. McCain capitulated. It is not a defeat for Bush. It is a win for Cheney.
Torture is not banned or in any way impeded.

Under the compromise, anyone charged with torture can defend himself if a "reasonable" person could have concluded they were following a lawful order.

That defense "loophole" totally corrodes the ban. It is the CIA, or the torturing agency, who will decide what a "reasonable" person could have concluded. Can you imagine those agencies in the interrogation business torturing on their own in trying to decide what is reasonable or what is not? What is not "reasonable" if the interrogator (wrongfully or rightfully) believes he has a ticking-bomb situation? Will a CIA or military officer issue a narrow order if he knows his interrogator believes, in this case, torture will work?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-garbus/an-incredible-day-in-amer_b_12392.html

[Nothing Without Hope]

22. And this has been utterly suppressed in the "Free" Press!!! n/t

[Nothing Without Hope]

56. GOOD POST ON THIS MONSTROUS SCAM - Cheney WON on TORTURE

McCain capitulated. He's right, if what he and the HRW press release says is accurate.

We need to see the bill and the language in the amendment for ourselves. I looked for it at Thomas, but I can't find it and am too ignorant to wade through and understand.

This sure sounds like a colossal national scam and suppressed scandal to me. And McCain is basking in the limelight about his "anti-torture" legislation! It's all his campaigning for 2008 anyway.

[Nothing Without Hope]

7. It's the GRAHAM-LEVIN AMENDMENT. Human Rights Watch Press Release:

You need to read this HRW press release and ACT ON IT - write your Senators!!!! MED1A BLAST!!!

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/16/usdom12311_txt.htm

U.S.: Landmark Torture Ban Undercut

Congress Would Allow Evidence Obtained by Torture

(Washington, D.C., December 16, 2005) – Even as the U.S. Congress has passed a prohibition against the use of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, it is set to adopt legislation that would strip the judiciary’s ability to enforce the ban, Human Rights Watch warned today.

After months of opposition, President Bush yesterday accepted Senator John McCain’s amendment banning the use of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment by U.S. personnel anywhere in the world, and prohibiting U.S. military interrogators from using interrogation techniques not listed in the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation.

But the legislation containing the McCain Amendment currently includes another provision – the Graham-Levin Amendment – that would deny the five hundred-some detainees in Guantánamo Bay the ability to bring legal action seeking relief from the use of torture or cruel and inhumane treatment. And it implicitly authorizes the Department of Defense to consider evidence obtained through torture or other inhumane treatment in assessing the status of detainees held in Guantánamo Bay.

If passed into law, this would be the first time in American history that Congress has effectively permitted the use of evidence obtained through torture.

“With the McCain amendment, Congress has clearly said that anyone who authorizes or engages in cruel techniques like water boarding is violating the law,” said Tom Malinowski, Washington Advocacy Director for Human Rights Watch. “But the Graham-Levin amendment leaves Guantánamo detainees no legal recourse if they are, in fact, tortured or mistreated. The treatment of Guantánamo Bay detainees will be shrouded in secrecy, placing detainees at risk for future abuse.”

These provisions have been added by House and Senate conferees to language that originally passed the Senate as part of the Defense Authorization legislation. The language in the original Senate version already placed new and significant restrictions on Guantánamo Bay detainees’ access to federal court. It eliminated the right for detainees to bring habeas corpus claims challenging the legality of their ongoing detention and asserting their innocence. Instead, detainees would be allowed to seek independent court review of their detention at just two points in time – after their initial designation as an enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal and after conviction by a military commission – and would be allowed to raise only a very narrow set of claims. They could challenge the procedures and constitutionality of the tribunals and commissions, but would be precluded from seeking an independent review of the factual basis for their detention or conviction.

The new language would expand the prohibition on habeas review to cover all other claims – making it almost impossible for detainees at Guantánamo to seek relief from torture or cruel treatment.

The original language passed by the Senate also sought to restrict the use of evidence obtained through “undue coercion” by the Combatant Status Review Tribunals. The language approved by conferees would reverse this prohibition. It would require these tribunals to assess the probative value of evidence obtained through coercion, but would not prohibit the use of such evidence.

Another addition redefines the United States to explicitly exclude Guantánamo Bay. This is an attempt to ensure that the constitutional protections – including the prohibition on the use of evidence obtained through torture – do not extend to detainees in Guantánamo Bay, Human Rights Watch said.

Human Rights Watch also remains concerned that the administration has not disavowed certain abusive interrogation methods, such as “water boarding,” a form of mock execution.

“If the McCain law demonstrates to the world that the United States really opposes torture, the Graham-Levin amendment risks telling the world the opposite,” said Malinowski.

PLEASE bump and vote this onto the Greatest page, urge activism and exposure. WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME!

[EFerrari]

11. What is in this for LEVIN?

:wow:

Google search here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Graham+Levin+Amendment&btnG=Google+Search

LOOK AT THE SPONSORS AND COSPONSORS!

S.AMDT.2524
Amends: S.1042 , S.AMDT.2515
Sponsor: Sen Graham, Lindsey (submitted 11/14/2005) (proposed 11/14/2005)

AMENDMENT PURPOSE:
In the nature of a substitute.

POPULAR TITLE(S):
Detainees at Guantanamo Bay amendment (identified by CRS)

TEXT OF AMENDMENT AS SUBMITTED: CR S12771-12772

STATUS:

11/14/2005:
Amendment SA 2524 proposed by Senator Graham to Amendment SA 2515. (consideration: CR S12752-12763; text: CR S12753)
11/15/2005:
Considered by Senate. (consideration: CR S12777, S12796, S12800-12803)
11/15/2005:
Amendment SA 2524 agreed to in Senate by Yea-Nay Vote. 84 - 14. Record Vote Number: 325.

COSPONSORS(3):

Sen Levin, Carl - 11/14/2005
Sen Kyl, Jon - 11/14/2005
Sen Reid, Harry - 11/15/2005

[nofurylike]

68. Reid?! what?! this is crazy. and i read that levin doesn't actually

support it.

???
full of deceptions, but must be stopped.


peace!

[donheld]

8. But we're suppose to be proud Americans.

We have a lot to be mighty ashamed of as Americans and it's getting worse all the time.

Just a few short years if anyone would have mentioned that we'd soon become a nation they spied on its own people, and that advocated torture for any reason we'd have never believed it. If we'd have heard we'd someday let a major american city be wiped out and refuse to do much about it who would have believed it. We as a nation have fallen dreadfully far. I know we were attacked on 9/11 but It does not justify this kind of behavior.

[sandnsea]

15. It defines the status of detainees

The two have written a proposal that would give detainees timely decisions on whether they qualify as enemy combatants, making them subject to military tribunals for war crimes and likely to be held indefinitely.

The measure also would create a Senate-approved office to keep Congress informed on the status of cases.

Federal judges could review cases to determine whether the U.S. military followed its own procedures, such as excluding evidence collected by torture or other questionable methods, in deciding whether someone should be held at Guantanamo in Cuba. The proposal also would require automatic review of cases in which military tribunals impose prison terms of 10 years or more...

Levin said that although the proposal he and Graham are pushing to include in the 2006 Defense Department authorization bill isn't perfect, it would provide a check on the Bush administration, which would "set its own rules if we don't."

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051214/NEWS07/512140427/1009

[Nothing Without Hope]

49. The Human Rights Watch press release sure makes it sound a lot less

innocuous than that!!! (see reply #7)

"Not perfect," eh? Oh yeah, I think we can say that.

[sandnsea]

51. At least there will be the beginning of a framework

That's more than there is now. At least we'll start to see exactly who is down there and why. And force Bush to start telling us what he's got in store for those people. Force him to do something besides leaving them there to rot.

[EFerrari]

16. Hope, this was in the Defense Appropriations bill.

Which was passed today.

Here's a LBN story on the McCain mendacity which mentions this amendment near the end of the article.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2001579

[Nothing Without Hope]

20. My reading is that IT IS NOT QUITE LAW YET:

The LYING TITLE of this Dec 21 Wash Post piece: "Congress Bans Harsh Treatment of Suspects" What monstrous irony.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/21/AR2005122102328.html
(snip)

The detainee provisions also were included in a separate $453 billion defense spending bill. On Wednesday, the Senate signed off on that measure, which includes $50 billion more for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but only after stripping out a provision that would have allowed oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Because of the change, the House needs to sign off on the final version of the spending measure before it goes to the president for his signature. The House is expected to give final approval Thursday.

(snip)

In addition, the measure allows military panels determining whether to hold Guantanamo detainees indefinitely to consider information gained from coercive interrogation techniques.

It also narrows a 2004 Supreme Court ruling that gave Guantanamo detainees the right to fight the legality of their detentions in any federal court. Instead, the bill limits their ability to appeal their detention status and punishments to a federal appeals court in Washington.

(snip)

[EFerrari]

23. So, the House still has to pass it.

All those speeches today are pretty nauseating in retrospect.

[Nothing Without Hope]

28. yes, and check out the title of the WaPo piece on this - IT's a LIE,

in fact the OPPOSITE of the truth.

I've got to stop for the night - it's almost dawn here on the east coast. I am hoping very hard that something can be done to expose and fight against this.

To readers - please keep this kicked and try to get it voted onto the Greatest page! It's important, and we're down to the WIRE.

[nofurylike]

30. "All those speeches today are pretty nauseating in retrospect." yes. YES!!

so we have to contact house members before 4 today? and wish they'd hear, when they're all jut waiting to drop ANWR, pass it, and run home to their comfy homes...

whew....

[nofurylike]

26. "monstrous" yes, Nothing Without Hope!! eom

[mmonk]

35. Add in domestic spying

and you have a dangerous soup.

[Nothing Without Hope]

24. I've got to stop for the night - I hope this gets pushed and publicized

Thanks to our complant press and the criminal tactics of the GOP ramming through unreadable laws, we may be too late, but we have to try and we have to publicize what they have done.

The American public does not want torture, and they thought there was protective legislation put into place. LOOK at the LYING TITLE of the Wash Post piece in Reply #20 - it's appalling.

We cannot be silent. We have to expose what they are doing. Media blast and Congress blast.

[EFerrari]

27. I know. That title is classic Rovian spin.

We have to call our reps in the House. I'm afraid it may be too late.

Thanks for put this up.

[sandnsea]

32. Finish reading

As Levin said, if they don't define the detainees' status and begin getting some sort of oversight over the military tribunals, Bush will move forward on his own.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051214/NEWS07/512140427/1009

[Nothing Without Hope]

34. Why does this thread only have one vote? Isn't it important enough

for wider attention?

[Sapphire Blue]

37. Approved by the Senate, now on its way to the House, then to bush to sign.

Congress Bans Harsh Treatment of Suspects

(Excerpt)

The detainee provisions also were included in a separate $453 billion defense spending bill. On Wednesday, the Senate passed that measure, which includes $50 billion more for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but only after stripping out a provision that would have allowed oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Because of the change, the House needs to sign off on the final version of the spending measure - expected Thursday - before it goes to the president for his signature.

The detainee provisions prohibit "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment'' of anyone in U.S. government custody anywhere in the world. They also require that service members follow procedures in the Army Field Manual during interrogations of prisoners.

In addition, the measure narrows a 2004 Supreme Court ruling that gave Guantanamo detainees the right to fight the legality of their detentions in any federal court. Instead, the bill limits their ability to appeal their detention status and punishments to a federal appeals court in Washington.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5796610.html

[Sapphire Blue]

38. ***** CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE!! ***** 1-800-426-8073 *****

[autorank]

39. Recommended...my letter to J. Warner, US Senate, VA--call to follow

Dear Senator Warner:

I'm stunned. Can someone explain why we're sanctioning the use of evidence from torture.

The Federal government is completely out of control, I mean totally and finally. We have unauthorized spying, wars with out declaration or even valid reasons, now this insanity.

We are the state of Jefferson. The last time I stood at the center of the Memorial, not to long ago, I wondered just what he'd be saying were he alive today. I then looked up and read the inscriptions surrounding the interior ceiling.

We need him back. Please speak out against the insanity. This is simply incomprehensible.

His Excellency,

The esteemed autorank



US law would let torture be used for evidence
Congress could approve this week legislation that would permit indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay based on evidence obtained through torture.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=FT&Date=20051220&ID=5366198

[Nothing Without Hope]

47. Thanks, autorank! Be sure to call/fax your REPRESENTATIVES - the HOUSE

has the final vote on this, probably today.

And this needs MAJOR MEDIA EXPOSURE. It sure shows McCain for the fraud he is - he had plenty of time to say something about the Graham-Levin amendment, which GUTS the anti-torture legislation that he is so loudly pushing as evidence of his greatness.

We CANNOT let this happen! We CANNOT be silent!

And we also need to write to the Wash Post to complain that the title of their article on this legislation IS A TOTAL LIE and the writing late in the article proves that THEY KNOW IT. See Reply #20 for the Wash Post excerpt. The title is of this Dec 21 article is, brazenly, "Congress Bans Harsh Treatment of Suspects." It's by an Associated Press writer, but the Wash Post printed it and probably chose that lying title.

I don't know yet what the other major papers are doing.

[EFerrari]

40. Good! The cavalry!

:)

[Nothing Without Hope]

41. I've posted a headsup cross-post in GD here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5665453
thread title (12/22 GD): ***URGENT! CALL HOUR HOUSE REPS!!! TORTURE BILL up for final vote!!!!

I really do need to stop for the night - will you people please take this over and run with it???

THIS IS URGENT URGENT URGENT!!!!!

[nofurylike]

46. THANK YOU FOR ALL, Nothing Without Hope!! will do! eom

[Sapphire Blue]

65. ***** kick *****

:kick:

[Nothing Without Hope]

44. NEVER FORGET that "anti-torture" McCain had PLENTY of time to say

something about this Graham-Levin amendment. The Human Rights Watch press release was dated DECEMBER 16th!!! The only conclusion possible: MCCAIN IS LYING ABOUT HIS SUPPORT OF ANTI-TORTURE LEGISLATION. It's a political ploy to help get him the Presidency in 2008, and he knows the Graham-Levin Amendment guts the legislation with his name on it. (Biiiig surprise. :sarcasm:)

:grr: :grr: :grr:

Yes, the frigging PRESS RELEASE - but our great warriors of the "free press" have SUPPRESSED IT. Note the LYING title of the Wash Post article dated Dec 21 and referring to provisions in this amendment near the end:
"Congress Bans Harsh Treatment of Suspects"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/21/AR2005122102328.html

I've given a 4-paragraph excert of this Wash Post piece in reply #20 upthread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5665289#5665381

[EFerrari]

48. Somehow, this has been suppressed for the better part

of a MONTH. He's had a MONTH to step up to the plate. Disgusting.

I knew as soon as I heard that McCain was meeting with Monkey Boy to work out a "compromise" that his legislation was BALONEY.

[BEYOND TREASON]

52. So,this only effects NON-US citizens?

[Nothing Without Hope]

53. Good question - we need to get the actual language of the

bill and the amendment. The Human Rights Watch press release on it (upthread in Reply #7) says it applies to Gitmo detainees. Nothing is said about citizenship.

[Usrename]

54. Yeah, keep telling yourself that!

We need to stop this now!

Heads on pikes!!

[EFerrari]

55. It always comes home. Always. n/t

[Nothing Without Hope]

57. yes, we KNOW who their idea of "enemy combatants" is: US

For example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5662402
thread title {12/21 GD} A statement from a top FBI official to chill your bones

[Usrename]

72. What about corporate espionage?

The thought of Halliburton eavesdropping on their competition is also pretty real. Do they even have any competition left? They are probably watching Fitz's investigation too. It all fits. They will not police themselves. They don't even think they have to.

[lostnfound]

69. That wouldn't be like "the least of our brothers", would it?

Gitmo can and has included US citizens, but I haven't read the text of the amendment yet.

PS Welcome to DU!

[BEYOND TREASON]

58. If we all work together we can find

the exact wording...heres the link i think:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SP2524:

[Nothing Without Hope]

62. yes, I think this is at least part of the language of this amendment

and maybe all of it. (One of the earlier links said something about it being in TWO measures - I don't understand.) We need legal analysis by someone who knows how to read the circuitous logic of legislation. So far, it seems to me that the EXCEPTIONS to the claims are signfiicant.

Now I REALLY have to sign off and get some sleep.

[Peace Patriot]

59. Doesn't this law violate the law? We are signatories to the Geneva

Conventions, and no torture is enshrined in the Uniform Military Code of Justice. How can they pass a law violating both?

Color me smart. I figured, the other day, if they were bringing up torture, and making such a thing of it, that what they were intending to do is WEAKEN the absolute ban against it. Bait and switch. I also figured ANWR for a distraction. But I thought it was a distraction for giving Bush and his playmates ONE HUNDREND BILLION MORE DOLLARS to slaughter and torture people with.

[Nothing Without Hope]

61. JOHN YOO has assured Bush that it is legal to ignore the Geneva

Conventions and other international agreements. He also told him that ONLY the president has the power to declare war (I expect an attack on Iran in the next few months).

Read more about John Yoo and how his "legal memos" have enabled Bush to believe he is a dictator - and Congress and the Press have not stood in his way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5643999
Thread title (12/20 GD): New LAT op/ed from JOHN YOO, the legal enabler of the IMPERIAL BUSH

John Yoo, who clerked with Clarence Thomas, is now a professor at U Cal Berkeley, teaching the NEXT generation of young lawyers...

[Hissyspit]

60. The U.S. doesn't torture! Didn't you hear?

/sarcasm

So why would we need this bill?

[Nothing Without Hope]

63. kick n/t

[Time for change]

64. Thank you for bringing this awful law to our attention. Recommended! n/t

[understandinglife]

66. K&R.

Peace.

[EuroObserver]

70. rec'd + bump n/t

[Mojorabbit]

71. Is it ithe senate or house voting on this today?

I need to know who to call. Thanks

[Nothing Without Hope]

74. The HOUSE is voting on it.

I just got onto the computer after many hours and don't know if they already did or not. Will check.

[EFerrari]

73. Kick

[Nothing Without Hope]

75. The House has adjourned until Dec 26 - UNLESS they decide on earlier

From the House Floor proceedings site:

http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html
4:36 P.M. -
On motion to adjourn Agreed to by voice vote.
The House adjourned pursuant to a previous special order. The next meeting is scheduled for 11:00 a.m. on December 26, 2005, unless it sooner has received a message from the Senate transmitting its adoption of H. Con. Res. 326.

Mr. Sensenbrenner moved that the House do now adjourn.

OK - it didn't get passed yet and we have to mount an offensive. BUT THEY ARE MEETING THE DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS, so I don't think we can wait to do what we can to expose this undermining by the amendment of the anti-torture legislation.

Re the NUMBERS AND NAMES we have to watch for, a poster in the main thread on this found at least part of the legislation language at Thomas here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r109:1:./temp/~r109WAHG5K::

Note this excerpt:

SA 2523. Mr. BINGAMAN proposed an amendment to amendment SA 2515 proposed by Mr. GRAHAM (for himself, Mr. KYL, Mr. CHAMBLISS, and Mr. CORNYN) to the bill S. 1042, to authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2006 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe personnel strengths for such fiscal year for the Armed Forces, and for other purposes; as follows:

I don't see Levin's name in this, but Chambliss and Cornyn are TOADS.

NOTE THAT THE ADJOURNMENT UNTIL DEC 26TH COULD BE CUT SHORT! THE PROCEDURE UNDER WHICH THEY ADJOURNED TODAY HAD THIS PROVISO:

SEC. 3. The Speaker of the House and the Majority Leader of the Senate, or their respective designees, acting jointly after consultation with the Minority Leader of the House and the Minority Leader of the Senate, shall notify the Members of the House and the Senate, respectively, to reassemble at such place and time as they may designate if, in their opinion, the public interest shall warrant it.

What the hell? Do we have to watch them every minute?

[Nothing Without Hope]

76. ***We must find ALL the undermining amendment language for torture

Some was apparently found upthread and is here:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r109:1:./temp/~r109WAHG5K:

Note the names and bill numbers in this summary:

SA 2523. Mr. BINGAMAN proposed an amendment to amendment SA 2515 proposed by Mr. GRAHAM (for himself, Mr. KYL, Mr. CHAMBLISS, and Mr. CORNYN) to the bill S. 1042, to authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2006 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe personnel strengths for such fiscal year for the Armed Forces, and for other purposes; as follows:

This does not have Levin's name in it. Chambliss and Cornyn are among the worst of the Bushie toadies.

The description in the opening post of the current thread says that the language is in TWO bills, but doesn't specify their numbers. This would imply that there is ANOTHER bill besides the one in this post. We have to find it and get ALL THE FACTS and MOVE FAST - unless they pull yet another fast one, the House will reconvene on Dec 26th and CSPAN will NOT cover it.

[paineinthearse]

78. K&R - what is the resolution/bill number???? nt

[Nothing Without Hope]

79. According to the Dec 20 article in the opening post, the language is in

TWO bills. In the previous reply in this thread you see reference to what appears to be at least one of them. Levin's name does not appear, though. Chambliss and Cornyn (as well as Graham and Bingaman are named, but not Levin.

I don't understand this - and we have to clarify it. If there is another place where part of the language is, we have to find it.

No wonder Bush and Cheney were willing to abandon their opposition to the McCain anti-torture legislation. They have this all-too-secret back door to get what they want. CSPAN says they won't be filming until January. This has been ruthlessly suppressed and is almost law without any debate or public knowledge beyond the few sources cited in this thread.

We must do everything we can to make the facts known and PUSH THE HOUSE REPS TO FIGHT IT.

[Nothing Without Hope]

80. kick -we have to fight, or this will be passed by the House when it

reconvenes on Dec 26.

This has been very well-suppressed by the media and Congress. No wonder Bush and Cheney "conceded" on the torture issue - they have this secret back door that guts the McCain anti-torture legislation so they can get what they want.

And McCain HAD to know about this, and has said nothing.

What a scam! And hardly anyone knows about it and even CSPAN won't be covering when/if it's discussed on the House floor.

[Justice Is Comin]

81. I saw the debate when they were arguing it in the senate.

Levin and someone else (I can't remember who) was battling Graham tooth and nail. Graham wanted zero American court judicial review for Guantanamo detainees. He said the inmates were filing frivolous claims that they couldn't watch the TV channels they wanted or didn't have the books they wanted to read.

Levin insisted there had to be provision for cases to be reviewed by a civil court so people could not be held without cause. The compromise was reached that any death penalty case was automatically heard and anyone with sentence of ten years or more would also have access to judicial hearing. I believe there is a special court where these cases are heard in Washington.

Any detainees with other complaints could submit their cases if not frivolous, and the court would decide the merits of whether they would hear the case.

Levin saved it from being much much worse than it would have been. Levin made it clear there would have been a showdown if Graham didn't revise from what he originally wanted.

[Nothing Without Hope]

82. Thanks for this.. And where was McCain while this gutting of the

anti-torture legislation was being discussed?

From what is said in the Human Rights Watch press release (Reply #7), what has been passed to the House still fundamentally undercuts any move against the torturers and holders of uncharged people at Gitmo. It must be opposed.

No wonder Bush and Cheney "agreed" to anti-torture legislation - they got what they wanted through this secretive back door. McCain went along with it, so much for his vaunted anti-torture credentials.

Glad you reported on some of the discussion behind this.

[Justice Is Comin]

83. The anti torture is absolute as far as I understand it

Here is independent confirmation from WAPO.



<clip>



The detainee provisions also were included in a separate $453 billion defense spending bill that the Senate approved Thursday, a day after House passage.

The detainee provisions prohibit "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" of anyone in U.S. government custody anywhere in the world. They also require that service members follow procedures in the Army Field Manual during interrogations of prisoners.

In addition, the measure takes aim at a 2004 Supreme Court ruling that gave Guantanamo detainees the right to fight the legality of their detentions in any federal court. The bill limits their ability to appeal their detention status and punishments to a federal appeals court


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051223/ap_on_go_co/congress_defense

Like I said it was a knock down drag out fight. Reporting of these cases now also is required to be made to congress for monitoring.

[Nothing Without Hope]

84. From what Human Rights Watch said, the revised language lets

the military decide when testimony obtained under duress is admissable, to be used for example against the detainee. The language did not forbid torture, and you know how the Bushies think anything is OK by their defininition. The language also denies ability to sue over what happened to the detainee, which would prevent the truth from coming out.

The bit about not having access to US court system unless there is a death sentence or 10 years of prison (9.9 years is OK with no charge, apparently) is nice too.

We need to see ALL the actual language and determine what the provisions really are. The Dec 20 excerpt in the opening post says it's in TWO bills. I don't understand that.

[Nothing Without Hope]

85. Why is this not being covered? What is the final language of this

language? If the Dec 20 MSN article (opening post) and the Dec 16 Human Rights Watch press release (Reply #7) are right in their analysis, this is a major OUTRAGE - yet we've not heard ANYTHING from the Dems about this. What is going on here?

The House will reconvene on Dec 26, and since this is in military budget legislation, they will want to vote on it quickly. Then it is done except for Bush's inevitable signature.

Why the silence? Is it such a commonplace to pass the first US law that permits the results of torture to be used as evidence? And then there is the rest of it, as pointed out by Human Rights Watch.

[me b zola]

86. We must deny the legitimacy of the term "enemy combatant"

If the US is going to insist that we are at war, then the people whom we incarcerate must either be prisoners of war or charge them under US criminal law. The entire notion of an "enemy combatant" has allowed the WH thugs to comitt all manner of illegal things against persons, foreign & domestic.

If we are at war, then the people we incarcerate are prisoners of war. If not, then we are not at war.

[Ouabache]

87. Why in the hell is LEVIN'S name on this ?

What the hell is he thinking?

[Nothing Without Hope]

88. Apparently Levin was responsible for making the language more

restrictive than what the Administration initially sought. But the final language is still much too broad.

[Nothing Without Hope]

89. UPDATE THREADS ON THIS MASSIVE, CRIMINAL SCAM of legalizing torture:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2331932
thread (12/24/05 GD-P): McCain=Bush* shell game! TORTURE to be legalized on MONDAY!?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5681815
thread (12/24/05 GD): Do you know about the Graham-Levin-Kyl amendment? Torture legal on {Monday?}

We cannot stop trying to expose what they have done. No wonder Bush and Cheney appeared to accept the "McCain anti-torture amendment" - it has been utterly gutted by this criminal amendment that legalizes torture for the first time in this country and more. They got what they wanted and McCain plans to use his "Mr. Clean" image to run for the Presidency in 2008.

Meanwhile, anyone they declare to be anti-American can be tortured and held without access to US courts. This was done in secret, but we cannot allow it to STAY secret.

The US has legalized torture while loudly claiming to ban it. Spread the word and keep spreading it.

[gristy]

90. But they will only torture terrorists and other criminals.

That makes it ok! Why do you hate America?

[tlsmith1963]

91. Pro-Torture People are So Stupid

When you torture someone, they tell you what they think you want to know (to get the torture to stop), rather than what you *need* to know. It doesn't work. Most of this *evidence* will be false, mark my words. How does it stop terrorism if you get false evidence? Like I said, people who like this stuff are pretty stupid.

Tammy

[Rex]

92. Yup, this would make regional judges lords over a domain

outside US boundaries. Imagine this going on in the former Soviet bloc? We have a torture chamber in Poland and it makes me wonder what kind of jurisdiction a person can have in the name of the BFEE. This just further erodes the rule of law.

[Nothing Without Hope]

93. ***Article in The Nation tells WHAT'S NEXT after passage of the Graham-

Levin-Kyl amendment allowing evidence obtained by torture and much more:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060109/brecher
article | posted December 21, 2005 (web only)

Fixing the Torture Fix

Jeremy Brecher & Brendan Smith

Congress passed just before Christmas legislation allowing evidence obtained by torture to be used against Guantánamo captives and denying them the right to habeas corpus--the right to make the government justify their captivity before a court. Christopher Anders of the American Civil Liberties Union calls these provisions "horrific precedents" that are "counterproductive and against the rule of law." Michael Ratner, head of the Center for Constitutional Rights, calls it "a legal, political and moral outrage" and "the worst thing to happen legislatively in my history as a civil rights litigator."

This assault on the most venerable and universal of legal principles is attached to the same legislation as Senator John McCain's anti-torture measure. But it provides a legal incentive to torture and blocks the main vehicle that federal courts and human rights advocates have used to uncover and challenge prisoner abuse at Guantánamo.

This language fulfills one clear purpose: to prevent courts from hearing evidence of torture, abuse and unlawful activity. What it protects is not the security of Americans against terrorism but the security of high government officials against prosecution for violation of the Anti-Torture and War Crimes Acts.

But in today's climate of growing resistance to the abuse of presidential power--evidenced by the blocking of Patriot Act renewal, the firestorm of outrage at NSA domestic spying and the McCain anti-torture amendment itself--the Bush Administration's torture cover-up may be short-lived. Human rights groups and members of Congress are already gearing up for the next round.

(snip - much more)

A must-read. The infamous passage of the Graham-Levin-Kyl outrage is NOT the end.

[MN ChimpH8R]

94. It will pass

MOR Dems will harrumph a little, then a dozen or so will vote for it so as not to look soft on terrists. Our nitwit Reichstag of a Congress would vote for its own execution of Cheney asked for it.