If having a minimum wage is so bad for the economy

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Wouldn't it be great to reduce it to $1 an hour? Or, better, a quintillionth of a cent per eon?

[whistle]

1. Slave labor is what the republicans and the neocons really want

...a master/slave relationship of the confederacy

[ThomCat]

8. I am not sure that this is even exageration.

They would never say that this is what they want, but I can easily see them claiming that it's for the good of society/the economy, that it's what people really want, and that it isn't demeaning to the slaves. This is only a few short steps from where the republicans are now.

[zbdent]

18. Not really ... since you consider that a slave was an investment

and you actually had to take care of your slaves.

With it being non-slave, that means that you can just cut someone loose and get the next desperate worker looking to put food on his family ...

[gulfcoastliberal]

2. Talk to some undergrads taking Econ and they'd agree wholeheartedly.

Until the graduatd and then figured out their bullshit theories are just that, bullshit.

Why else are the multinationals constantly moving production plants to wherevever they can get the cheapest slave labor?

[Lasher]

15. They must have skipped the chapter on marginal propensity to consume

The consumer drives this economy much more than the investor does.

[calico1]

3. Why pay them at all?

A better idea is to have them work a certain number of hours after which they can qualify for a loaf of bread (Wonder white), another few hours, a can of pork and beans, another few, a can of Spam. Oh, and with each workweek (which should be 96 hours instead of 40) they get a bottle of ketchup because that's a vegetable. One pair of shoes and two outfits is plenty as far as clothing goes. And a family of six can easily live in a one bedroom apt. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Warren Stupidity]

4. There is no evidence that minimum wage laws have

anything other than a beneficial effect on the economy. There is rightwing economic theory that holds as a matter of faith that increases in the minimum wage must be offset by decreases in employment, the only problem is that there is no data that actually supports this claim.

[Arkansas Granny]

13. I have never understood that theory. It seems to me that if you

increase minimum wage it would allow those who work for minimum wage to increase their spending on needed goods and services. This should, in turn, create new jobs to provide these goods and services. Am I missing something here?

[Warren Stupidity]

21. I'm not an economist

But - basically the idea is that if everything else in the universe of economic activity is unchanged, the change in the minimum wage will result in a decrease in employment equivalent to the cost increase for wages. The problem obviously is that everything else in the universe of economic activity is constantly changing and those changes feed on each other.

[jwtravel]

27. Effect of Minimum Wage increase

If the Minimum Wage is increased, it will eventually drive down the purchasing power of a dollar. Having an artificial minimum wage and periodically raising it (for political purposes) is a bit like having control of a money supply and periodically releasing some currency to give people more money.

[Lasher]

33. Do you think this applies to top wage earners as well?

Compensation increases for CEOs and other senior executives is driven by mechanisms that are easily as artificial as raises of the minimum wage. To some people wage increases for the lowest earners is cause for concern about inflation, but if compensation for the highest earners is raised, that is cause for rejoicing about the overall economic benefits that are sure to follow. I don't understand how this can be so.

[newyawker99]

36. Hi jwtravel!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[LSK]

29. the right wing theory is that the rich will spend more than the poor

However the flaw of this is that the rich do not spend their excess wealth, they throw it into investments which may or may not even put money back into the US economy in this global world.

[Dr.Phool]

5. We need a maximum wage to go along with it.

When people have more money than they can possibly spend, they start buying dangerous things. Like politicians.

[TAPat]

7. Oh, how very well said! nt

[Yupster]

26. What should the maximum

wage be?

[HereSince1628]

6. How the capitalists' class warfare works...

Passive aggression: Lock minimum wage so that inflation and increases in the cost of living reduce relative earnings of workers.

Active aggression: Reduce full time status to part time status, go with more temporary employment, and externalize the burden of healthcare and retirement for all non-executive positions.

[MrsT]

9. Does anyone have data on the last time min wage was increased

and how it effected the economy?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the last increase was right before the late 90s boom in the economy, correct?

[liberal N proud]

10. The cry has always been that raising the min wage will spark inflation

but not once has inflation happened following a minimum raise increase.

[MoseyWalker]

41. I saw a sign on a drive up fast food place

once while traveling (obviously years ago)that said:

CLOSED DUE TO INCREASE IN MINIMUM WAGE!!!!

Of course, I'm sure it didn't close because of mismanagement or serving shitty food. It must have been because the cheap bastard had to pay his help a few pennies more.

[papau]

11. How does the German economy continue with all those worker rights?

A DUer no_hypocrisy has stated:

"1. Germany has very strong laws in favor of the workforce. No minimum wage stuff like here. Seriously decent LIVING wages with mandated benefits, 5 week vacations, etc. for its workers no matter what.

2. You can't UNDERSELL by cutting prices on merchandise in Germany like Walmart here. The concept is to protect the small mom-and-pop shops in smaller villages against underhanded big business pushing them out of business."

Those 40 plus days off from work per year - plus weekends and holidays -

shouldn't the German economy collapse?

[Yupster]

28. From the "World in Figures"

From this year's Economist.

Germany (US in parenthesis for comparison)

Average growth in GDP 1993-2003 1.4 % (3.3)
Average unemployment rate 93-03 9.1 % (6.2)

Annual births per 1,000 people 8.7 (14.5)
Annual deaths per 1,000 people 10.7 (8.4)

Lifetime births per woman 1.3 (2.0)

Population under 15 14.3 % (20.8)
Population over 60 25.1 % (16.7)
Germany is a great country, but it has huge problems too, especially democraphic ones.

[papau]

34. the demographic differences are real - the econ #'s diff is not - the calc

of unemployment and inflation and GDP growth is drastically different - to the point the EU appears to be doing better than the US despite the better US numbers.

Germany's major econ problem is and has been for many years the integration of East Germany, and the effects socially and economically of it's guest worker (mainly Turks) program.

[Yupster]

39. Well it certainly is axiomatic

That any statistic that shows the USA in a positive light, must therefore be inaccurate.

The Economist is however a European publication. That's why I read it instead of Time or Newsweek each week. I get the European opinion to the world (it is much more opinionated than the US news weeklies).

Anyway, the numbers the Economist is using like unemployment (averaging over 6 % during the Clinton years) is certainly higher than a US source would claim it to be. Yet you're saying even the Economist's numbers are hopelessly wrong?

Why?

And why would Germany's unemployment rate not be considerably higher through the 90's while they were trying to absorb East Germany's workers.

I think you can go too far in just automatically dismissing every slice of good news as propaganda, even if it's put out by a different source than the USA.

The world can't all be gravy I agree, but it can't all be brocolli either.

[Cassandra]

12. Lately I've been hearing the RW talking point...

that if people want a better paying job they "have to better themselves and make better choices". But that only deals with the person in the lousy-paying job. There's still the problem of the jobs which are necessary (janitor, health care aid, waiter, etc.) but which don't pay enough. Someone is going to have to do those jobs that the RW doesn't want to pay for. So they bring in illegals who will accept even less. Sooner or later, Wal-Mart is going to run out of customers. Corporate America has been eating it's customers for 30 years. Once they've ruined the greatest single market in the world, then what?

[SammyWinstonJack]

20. "Then what?" indeed! I have been asking that ? FOREVER!

[Cassandra]

24. For over 25 years I've been saying that...

if corporate America wants to run its companies into the ground, I could do that job for half the price. Early on, I didn't know how right I was. At least I would have done it honestly.

[panader0]

14. Since the last time the minimum wage was raised, bush's salary

has doubled 200000 to 400000.

[fasttense]

19. I understand they want to "raise" minimum wage to a little over

$7 an hour. Who can live on that? All the while the bushes double their wages. What a bunch of thieves we have in power.

I heard on Air America that when an employer pays you minimum wage he is saying, "I'm sorry I can't pay you any less." But In some places you do get paid less. I worked as a waitress and they paid me less than minimum claiming that my tips would compensate me for the difference, no such luck. Most daily tips barely brought me up to about $5/hour. I quit after 30 days.

[raccoon]

16. Be quiet, CPD! Don't give the conservatives ideas! nt

[bluestateguy]

17. Those workers spend all of that money, so it's good for the economy

That money goes right back into the economy anyway. We were promised huge layoffs the last time the MW was raised in 1996, and we got explosive job growth instead.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. It Isn't

While the Austrian school has created the hypothetical that wage floors are an impediment to the economy, no practitioner of that philosophy has ever made a case as to the actual threshhold of said effect.

While it's intuitively obvious that if everyone had to be paid $500 per hour, it would put a crimp on things, nobody has ever established that changes in a wage floor that still left the earner in the bottom quintile has any effect on the economy.

On the other hand, there have been no documented events here, in Canada, Japan, or in Europe (including the U.K.) in which an increase in the wage floor has ever caused a statistically significant increase in unemployment or had a statistically significant impact on inflation or a negative effect on economic growth. That's right! It's never happened!

Lastly, it would not be a positive to lower the wage floor to $1 or lower (i know you're being facetious). The underlying premise of capitalism is that people are motivated to perform by being remunerated in fair exchange for the goods and services produced. Make those wages too low, and you get poorer quality and lower volume. A great example would be the fact that the southern states, just before the Civil War, operated at a lower profit margin on their goods and services, despite the fact that nearly 70% of all labor was unpaid.

There's obviously some equilibrium at both ends of this continuum, but the minimum wage is so far from the tipping point as to make the argument about economic impact moot.
The Professor

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. OK, then shift my original post to a nondescript individual state

instead of the whole country. Now what?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. Ding dong, the anti-worker witch is DEAD!

Goodbye, slaveholder wannabe.

[Yupster]

30. I can't remember from my college debating years

This logical argument is called "Reduction al absurdium" or something like that. I'm probably remembering that wrong.

Anyway, it's taught as a logical fallacy.

The idea is to take your opponent's position and then take it to its absolute extreme to show how silly it is.

The same could be done to the position of raising the minimum wage though.

"If raising the minimum wage is so right, then why not raise it to $ 5 trillion dollars a minute."

You see. It's just not a logical argument either way.

I could see Pee Wee Herman as a senator using this argument to question an economist. Would be pretty funny I think. Is Pee Wee putting out a new movie?

[MardiGras Bandit]

31. Opposing minimum wage is NOT a right wing theory

It is a basic economic theory. Just because something is based on free market principles does not make it right wing.

[spanone]

37. Opposing minimun wage is not RW theory, it's a fact.

[557188]

40. Uhhh

Free Market Capitalism is a right wing theory.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SmokingJacket]

35. Minimum wage should be balanced out by lowering top wages.

Ie, CEO wages.