Osama Tape Fake.

[benburch]

Did you notice that Osama never ONCE mentions Allah in the most recent tape? This is *so* out of character with him that I sincerely believe that this means that this tape is a complete and total fake, likely generated by a governmental or quasi-governmental group with the ability to undetectably re-synthesize voices from a computational analysis of previous utterances.

[mom cat]

1. Allah be praised...There is a brain cell in the house!

Thanks for stating what should be so obvious. This tape and the whole Michael Moore smear are straight from the pen of Karl Rove.

[H2O Man]

2. Simply not true.

Anyone can check the transcript and find bin Laden mentions God ten times.

[wtmusic]

6. And...

His attack on America is a little too truthful for the Administration's tastes.

[FreedomAngel82]

29. Check this out

I found this on CNN:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

[henslee]

41. For me, real life has become XFiles. Trust No one. I am just going

to retire somewhere tropical and get fat and give up on caring about the truth. I know... i suck.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

52. Heh, maybe it's not such a bad idea

When your party is so screwed up and no one is going to stand up for the issues in greater majority anyway just so /some/ good gets done...it sets up a 'why bother' shield in my mind. So many greater truths out there than caring about some goat preaching to the man who reads my pet goat.

[helderheid]

8. God is mentioned but the phrase he used to always say after he said it is

gone

[H2O Man]

24. That is a curious

fall-back position. I assume that you may be referring to the traditional "Allah Akbar." Obviously, I do not know that this is what you mean, but in case it is -- or if it is something closely related -- I would suggest that there is a specific reason for this. People in the intelligence community know the reason for this tape. I think that you have an open mind, and so I will recommend that you consider reading chapter 5 of Michael Scheuer's book, "Imperial Hubris." It has a number of parts from Usama bin Laden's previous messages, and puts them in an interesting context.

I had hoped that Scheuer or someone else would comment on this new tape on TruthOut. I think that more is known about this tape than the administration would like people to know. None of it - none - would make an objective person think this administration has shown the capacity to deal with those threats to our interests that bin Laden may pose. The administration is a dismal failure in this area. Clinton was, without stretching the truth a bit, a thousand times better.

[FreedomAngel82]

30. Duke professor skeptical of tape authenticity

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=3828..

[Carni]

40. Here H20 man I have posted this on other threads

I posted a thread on this earlier, but I had the wrong saying (I thought peace be upon him was missing from his speech--it's not that, it's "Praise and glory be to him" that is not present in his blatherings.

If you go to this link below you will see a 1997 transcript of a UBL interview NOTE just about everytime he says God he follows it with "praise and glory be to him" he does it CONSTANTLY and I have included a couple of copied and pasted examples below the link.


http://www.anusha.com/osamaint.htm
(there is also a PDF of this interview of findlaw and it's the same but I cannot copy and paste it)

"BIN LADIN: We are confident, with the permission of God, Praise and Glory be to Him, that Muslims will be victorious in the Arabian peninsula and that God's religion, praise and glory be to Him, will prevail in this peninsula. It is a great pride and a big hope that the revelation unto Muhammad, Peace be upon him, will be resorted to for ruling. When we used to follow Muhammad's revelation, Peace be upon him, we were in great happiness and in great dignity, to God belong credit and praise."

"BIN LADIN: We are a nation and have a long history, with the grace of God, Praise and Glory be to Him. We are now in the 15th century of this great religion, the complete and comprehensive methodology, has clarified the dealing between an individual and another, the duties of the believer towards God, Praise and Glory be to Him, and the relationship between the Muslim country and other countries in time of peace and in time of war. If we look back at our history, we will find there were many types of dealings between the Muslim nation and the other nations in time of peace and in time of war, including treaties and matters to do with commerce. So it is not a new thing that we need to come up with. Rather, it already, by the grace of God, exists. As for oil, it is a commodity that will be subject to the price of the market according to supply and demand. We believe that the current prices are not realistic due to the Saudi regime playing the role of a US agent and the pressures exercised by the US on the Saudi regime to increase production and flooding the market that caused a sharp decrease in oil prices."



NOW if you look at the text from the al jeezeera website of his speech yesterday you will notice that he doesn't do this EVEN ONCE (where as he does it dozens of times in the 1997 interview)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4628932.stm

Text: 'Bin-Laden tape'

"These crimes include the raping of women and taking them hostage instead of their husbands. There is no power but in God."

"I say that despite all the barbaric methods, they have failed to ease resistance, and the number of mujahideen, praise be to God, is increasing."

"Operations are under preparation, and you will see them on your own ground once they are finished, God willing."

"We are a nation, for which God has disallowed treachery and lying."


"Finally, I would like to tell you that the war is for you or for us to win. If we win it, it means your defeat and disgrace forever as the wind blows in this direction with God's help."


I have included the paragraphs from yesterdays transcripts above that just blatantly should have the "praise and glory be to him" thing on the end if his usual pattern of the 97 interview was followed.

If you don't believe how characteristic this saying is of bin laden do a google search and type in "God praise and glory be to him" and many of the hits will be to bin laden related interviews and announcements by him!

This pretty much proves to me he didn't write the text of the tape-- JMO and after studying the tape he supposedly put out right before the 04 election? It also doesn't contain the characteristic "praise and glory be to him thing"

[benburch]

15. Hmmm....

The transcript I was emailed does not mention God... I'll search and see if I can find an "authentic" one.

[H2O Man]

21. Here is one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x191727

[acmejack]

16. He usually embellishes Allah with a string of superlatives.

"wielder of the sword of righteousness" type thing.

[mwb970]

26. I thought *Bush* wielded the sword of righteousness.

Oh, I forgot. Bush = God.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. He does not mention Allah

Allah and God are the same but a Muslim extremist would say Allah instead of God. Has he ever said God before instead of Allah? Also, why did he not quote anything from the Quran?

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Uh, God is the TRANSLATION of Allah

In fact, it is only because thoroughly irresponsible translators have refused to translate Allah that the phrase appears at all. Why do they refuse to translate "Allah" into the English version, God? Because they want you to think that "Allah" is some separate, foreign entity, and not the God of Abraham and Jesus, which "Allah" clearly is. That this translator correctly translated "Allah" as "God" is only a testament to his or her honesty. You really don't believe that bib Laden, speaking Arabic, said the actual word "God," right? You cannot be that silly?

[H2O Man]

50. That has caused confusion

for a surprising number of DUers. I have suggested they read the 2004 book, "Soul of a Butterfly," by Muhammad Ali. He uses both "Allah" and "God," each meaning exactly the same, throughout the book. Of course, some might question if that was REALLY Ali, or if perhaps Ali was a CIA creation.

[Straight Shooter]

3. The videotape pre-election had people questioning the authenticity.

Remember all the comments about the strange gestures? I didn't watch it, can't comment directly on it, but I know a lot of people were suspicious about whether the tape was a genuine message from OBL or a set-up.

Something is definitely screwy about this latest tape. Where's the video? OBL likes to be seen. He has magnetism, for lack of a better word. Too much BS in the latest tape, too convenient for bush, like the cryptic message in the pre-election videotape.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Right

The other BinLadin was very dark, had a short beard and a pudgy nose.

[helderheid]

4. It's as real as this tape >>>>>

http://www.globalresearch.ca/audiovideo/presaddress.mov <--- the real SOTU message

edited for clarity

[Stephanie]

5. did you see this, ben?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=189557

[benburch]

11. No, thanks! nt

[Blue Diadem]

7. I noticed the wording seemed different than prior transcripts

and the lack of Allah leads me to think it's a fake too.

[Carni]

42. They just translated "Allah" into "God"

"God" is the translation of "Allah"

[Blue Diadem]

46. I believe in previous transcripts the reference to both was used

I don't have a link handy but I just read an older transcript the other day when someone on DU posted the link. If this was an honest translation why the change now..when all previous ones had Allah in them?

Yes, you are correct..they refer to God as Allah.

[Carni]

48. I don't know what's up after reading a 1998 ABC transcript

In the 1998 version he doesn't use all the flowery speech--he did in 97, didn't in 98 -- this is all so inconsistent who can tell...

My gut instinct tells me that his speeches (or whatever you want to call them) are written by different people.

[JDPriestly]

9. I was suspicious of the pre-election tape also

My suspicions were based on my analysis of the text. Many years ago, while studying in French literature in France, I learned the French method for analyzing text which parses every word, its various possible meanings and its meaning in terms of the text itself, other writings of the author, literary conventions, history, the influences of other authors and cultural factors and even the personality of the author and biographical facts known about the author at the time the text was written. The French text analysis method uses just about every factor you imagine. I haven't read the recent Osama text, but it seemed to me that the text before the election was written by someone with western values, not by a person writing from an Islamic perspective. You are probably right. Osama may well be dead or not communicating with us. Alternatively, could he be in American custody reading scripts written by Americans?

[yellowdoginGA]

10. try reading the transcript

rather than listening to 30 second clips on the media

[BuyingThyme]

12. The reason we know the tape is fake (whatever FAKE means)

is because the CIA confirmed it's authenticity immediately.

No government agency has the capacity, ability, or authority to do something like that. It was all done ahead of time.

Are we really to believe that the CIA is sitting around, waiting for an opportunity to confirm news reports? No, they create news reports.

[carolinalady]

14. I am not saying it is or isn't fake, but the argument you are making

isn't very strong. The CIA may have had the tape prior to the time it was aired. Perhaps Al-Jazeera holds on releasing the tape the same as many of our media organizations do? We don't really know what the arrangement is with them and our government. We do know that the public stance may not be as it seems.

[TheDebbieDee]

18. I agree with you, Buying Thyme........

In the past, it's always taken several days for the CIA to confirm one of OBL's tapes. And there was always the standard disclaimer that it was dangerous to show the tapes to the general public for fear that there was some type of orders from OBL to terrorist cells hidden in the tape.

But this time it was like, "Oh, BTW, here's the latest audio tape from OBL. It's debuting at #15 on the AT Top 40 poll this week!"

[Peace Patriot]

19. Excellent comment, BuyingThyme! Reminds me of how fast they knew

who all 19 hijackers were--and that there were 19. When are we going to get it through our thick heads, that we are being....s...

...p...

.......u.........

..................n?

[BuyingThyme]

20. And about the box cutters, and about the anthrax, and...

[Carni]

43. Yes, previously it would take them days to announce

Of course with this spying issue heating up they didn't have days...hence the speedy identification.

[Surya Gayatri]

13. Good point, Ben

a devout Muslim literally peppers any pronouncement with references to the Prophet and to Allah--a glaring anomaly there. SG

[bpilgrim]

17. And he wants to rebuild iraq and afghanistan, just like the neoCONs

not to mention that he touts a left wing author who stands against him and his whacked supporters.

no doubt this is a fake.

peace

[Carni]

22. Swedish scientists think they are fake? CHECK THIS OUT

Yeah yeah fine it's an article from aljazeera give this a read!
(Full article at link)

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=10544

"There is no reason whatsoever to believe that these audiotapes are authentic. While they are always followed by reports of scientific voice analyses, these studies have been invariably done by CIA experts. In fact, only one occasion was an independent analysis done. And while American officials were certain of the tape’s authenticity, Swedish scientists were convinced that it was fake."

"Consider yesterday’s audiotape, in which BIN LADEN warned that AL-QAEDA is planning new attacks against the United States, but offered a conditional “long-term truce”, which the White House rejected. Hours after the tape's release, CIA officials said it is a “genuine message” from BIN LADEN. “Following a technical analysis, the voice on the tape is believed to be that of OSAMA BIN LADEN,” said a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) official. On the other hand, several experts doubted the tape's authenticity. “It was like a voice from the grave“, said Bruce Lawrence, a Duke professor, who analyzed more than 20 complete speeches and interviews of the AL-QAEDA chief for his recent book “Messages to the World: The Statements of OSAMA BIN LADEN.”"

[helderheid]

23. See post 4 - it probably is his voice... just spliced here and there from

the past. Good find! :thumbsup:

[Carni]

25. You know actually there is a comment about the media he makes

in this latest tape that I believe is identical to one he made in his 97 interview it's something like *God willing you will see it in the media*

I haven't had time to print the transcripts and look for exact repeats in this recent tape but I'll bet they are there!

[helderheid]

36. interesting!! Wonder if we could voice match to past speeches!

[Carni]

39. I thought about just trying to compare transcripts

But it would be a massive task!

[Igel]

58. Not just al-jazeera.

Al-jazeera.com. Not the Qatari broadcaster at all.

That would be aljazeera.net, FYI.

[Raydawg1234]

67. I am curious, Bin Laden is supposedly hiding in rural Pakistan,

But he as access to American books like Rogue state? I am wondering if a version of Rogue State
was ever printed in Arabic. If not, how would he have cause to reference it?

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Another researcher of BinLadin

I read about here on DU also claimed he didn't mention anything from the Quran either which is very strange for a Muslim extremist like him. That's like Robertson not quoting something from the Bible for his stance on something. I'm listening to Stephanie Miller's show from Thursday in the third hour and she's saying how they're going to use this as an excuse to go into Iran.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

31. The tape IS real...

Have you listened to the full audio?

Or have you only seen the poorly translated snippets?

[FreedomAngel82]

33. And your proof of this is?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

45. The original audio in the native tongue.

From the broadcast in the ME and a proper translation thereof yields quite a different "message", than that as nuanced by biased translators, and spun by all manner of shill...

[MakeItSo]

49. It is CRYSTAL clear that fake tapes have been made in the past

Specifically the one that came out in 2001 that was magically found by GI's in a random house. It's the one where he takes credit for 9/11 (contradicting an earlier newspaper interview in which he said he had nothing to do with it).

Use your eyes: these two people are not the same person:



As our dimwit president says, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, I won't be fooled again.

Remember, the CIA is the group that gave us all the bad info. that made us attack Iraq, which has been called by one war historian "The most foolish war in 2000 years."

Why on earth would you trust them on anything?

And to you CIA lackeys out there who are reading this, get a job that actually does someone good for a change. Stop bringin' us all down. Your a pion now, so there's still time to start a new career.

[Catrina]

56. But, but look at the HAT!! Seriously, that is not the same person, yet

at the time it came out, many people believed it was ~

Besides, why all the fuss about OBL? Bush said he isn't interested in him, as I recall. We better have that quote ready, because I have a feeling Bush has developed a renewed interest in his old family friend.

Interesting that the tape came out just in time for the SOTU address and Karl's intention to use 'terror' once again, to scare the public into keeping in office the morons who have proven they are totally incapable (or deliberately unwilling) to protect this country from harm.

I bet the man who said that OBL was not important, will mention him (and the tape) several times in his SOTU address, and how important it is that we 'fight this war on terror' and that anyone who disagrees with him is 'emboldening the enemy'. After all, just look at what Osama said in his message to the 'free world' (which he hates for its freedoms, although he needn't worry about that anymore, looks like he accomplished his mission then, if that was his reason for 'hating' us). He 'sounded just like all the liberals who have been criticizing Bush's war on terror'!!

I bet he'll say 'in a free country, it's okay to disagree with the president!! I WELCOME that, however when the criticism becomes partisan, then it will embolden the enemy' or words to that effect.

Michael Ledeen said a week ago that he had it on good authority from his sources, that Osama was dead. I guess he didn't get the memo 'let's not 'kill' him yet, even though he's already dead. People are now wondering why we can't catch his dead replacement, Zarqawi. The public needs a break from Zarqawi, until they forget how many times we 'killed' or 'seriously wounded him'.

I believe NOTHING they tell us ~ not anymore.

[MakeItSo]

64. The reason President Dimwit is so blase about OBL

Is that he knows that OBL is dead but he's too stupid to remember to feign concern.

[helderheid]

54. see post 4

[Raydawg1234]

66. yeah but how do you know? You can tell the difference?

[JDPriestly]

34. I finally read the latest supposed Osama speech

and, I agree that frankly, like the pre-election speech, it appears to be written from an American perspective, not from that of a devout Muslim. It isn't so much the lack of flowery language and quotes from the Koran. Those could be explained if we assume that Osama addressed this speech to the American people.

What I question is the underlying values of the author of this speech. The statements about the feelings of the soldier strike me as having been written by a westerner. The writer switches perspectives very frequently -- talking about the thoughts of the American people, the soldier on the battlefield, the Al Qaeda operatives now, the people of Iraq -- it is a real mish-mash of perspectives. That switching of perspectives is typical in our literature. Also, he puts the human view in the forefront. He doesn't seem at all concerned about God's view. In past speeches, Osama always presented his own words as sort of being God's words. He seemed to want to show himself to be speaking, if not on behalf of God, at least with the authority of God on his side.

I'm not so sure that his perspective and his human viewpoint are typical of writing in the Arab world. In this recent speech, Osama goes into the thoughts of the people in situations he is describing. He discusses the thoughts of the American people (as expressed in polls), the soldier, Bush (and even Wolfowitz) in the way I would expect a westerner to describe them. He seems to feel sorry for the American soldier and to be interested in the American soldier's feelings. He doesn't mention whether he thinks God condemns the soldier.

Osama's perspective in this speech also strikes me as odd for someone who is on a jihad against American soldiers. The jihad arises from fanatical beliefs about the duty of followers of Islam to destroy people they view as infidels. Whoever wrote this speech was not describing the soldier's feelings from the viewpoint of someone with the value system of a believer in the jihad.

Of course, another explanation is that Bin Laden doesn't believe the jihad propaganda but is merely on a power trip and is very western in his analysis of the motives of those who oppose his power. Maybe this speech merely shows the true Bin Laden.

Another odd thing about the speech is that Osama seems to be aware of the current polling trends in America but doesn't seem to realize that Wolfowitz is now at the World Bank, not in the U.S. government. Maybe it's all the same to him, but it seems a little odd to me that Osama would follow the news about American polls and books, but not notice that Wolfowitz is no longer a part of the Bush administration.

[Odin2005]

37. It's probably real...

Though I would be suprised if it was held on to until a politically convenient moment for *.

[MakeItSo]

65. Why is it "probably real"?

Do you associate the word "believability" with this administration? If so, why? The empirical evidence suggests that The Truth is the opposite of whatever they say it is.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. I don't know if it is fake or real

and I'm not sure that I actually care, or if it actually matters. I am certainly not sure if bin Laden and al qaeda represent a massive false flag campaign by forces technically on our side, used to create an Emmanuel Goldstein like boogeyman or if there is just a coincidental convergence of self interest between the neocons and the islamic radicals, with both sides needing the other's idiocy to justify theirs. Once again I am not sure if the distinction matters.

What I do now about the recent tape is that this tape comes on the heels of an orchestrated propaganda effort to force just such a communication. Over the last few weeks we have seen several newz articles claiming that bin laden must once again be dead as he had not been heard from in about a year. Does al qaeda read the news and say 'damn, they think the big guy is dead, better put out a tape?'

[Karenina]

60. The reference to "Rogue Nation"

was my tip-off. If you dare agree with the book's author YOU are now in league with OBL. Gimme a fuckin' break. Cheap trick. :eyes:

[Strelnikov_]

44. Fake

- Independent academics conclude it is inconsistent with past messages.

- Message hits much too conveniently on a number of Reich-Wing talking points. Look how quickly the corporate media picked up on the the "He sounds like the lefties" meme.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2051324#2051973

- The timing. Patriot Act expiration, political scandal, tough mid-term election season approaching.

To use that old cop term, "There is no such thing as coincidence".

[Disturbed]

47. If the tape is fake wouldn't al Q...

announce that it is?

I suspect that Osama is a deep cover CIA asset, agent provacatuer.

[thebigidea]

51. of course he says Allah. Listen to the tape instead of a transcript

sure, you won't understand it - but you'll hear the Allahs. Strange that so many people are having trouble with this God/Allah stuff and playing magnetic tape Columbos.

"refresh my memory again... ah... who did you worship again?"

what, do you think he spoke everything in Arabic but inexplicably threw in the English word God every once in a while?

Forget American reactions, dontcha think Al-Jazeera et al would find that a mite strange?

[SoCalDem]

53. and at the end he does not say...

"Oh, and Death to America"..

[QuettaKid]

55. Duke proff doesn't think it's him either.

""A Duke professor says he is doubtful about Thursday's audiotape from Osama bin Laden.

Bruce Lawrence has just published Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama Bin Laden, a book translating bin Laden's writing. He is skeptical of Thursday's message.

It was like a voice from the grave, Lawrence said.

He thinks bin Laden is dead and has doubts about the tape. Lawrence recently analyzed more than 20 complete speeches and interviews of the al Qaida leader for his book. He says the new message is missing several key elements.

There's nothing in this from the Koran. He's, by his own standards, a faithful Muslim, Lawrence said. He quotes scripture in defense of his actions. There's no quotation from the Koran in the excerpts we got, no reference to specific events, no reference to past atrocities.""

http://rense.com/general69/fake.htm

[Supersedeas]

57. Pakistani intelligence has motive here?

[H2O Man]

61. ISI

is always worth looking at, closely.

[Igel]

59. We've heard snippets.

Decent speakers change how the speak depending on their audience. I don't expect UBL to talk to me the same way he'd talk to an imam he respected.

There are set phrases used in ways that are fairly meaningless to non-Arabic speakers, and which have a meaning somewhat apart from their compositional meaning. "There is no power but in Allah", for example.

And we only got the snippets that al-jazeera deemed appropriate. 10 minute tape, over 9 minutes missing. Hard to judge from that.

For me the business about the truce is the deciding factor. *'s team, NYT, and most others get the voice wrong. He didn't offer a truce, as everybody said he did. The administration's response should *not* have been, "We reject his offer of a truce," but "We reject his suggestion that we ask for a truce and petition for terms." For me, offering a truce would be big-hearted, and saying I'd accept a truce might just be a way of moving forward in negotiations, one that's slightly faster, maybe, than offering the truce would be. Sort of "I can accept a range of options, not like you narrow minded people". For somebody sensitive to another code of honor, condescending to accept a truce would be big-hearted and merciful, while offering a truce would diminish his honor and exalt the other party. This kind of cultural nicety I probably wouldn't have thought of including; it's most definitely not American, if only because it makes for a bit of grammatical and conceptual clumsiness that serves no obvious purpose. But it jumped out at me the minute I read the al-jazeera translation a couple of days ago.

I don't think that part was intended for * at all. That was intended for the American populace--in a way that shows an appreciable degree of cultural ignorance of Americans--and for Arab audiences.

[drfresh]

62. Apparently in every other tape he's quoted the Koran

But not this one. Can't back this up with a link but I recall hearing it from somewhere, perhaps MSNBC

[LittleClarkie]

63. Not to mention that experts have said it appears to be an English

to arabic translation. Now why would he do that?

[elehhhhna]

68. He LOOKS different, too.

[Imagevision]

69. It's the reason Bush pulled back getting osama - he was trained at the CIA