Manassas Changes Definition of Family

[MountainLaurel]

I wasn't sure which forum this would fit into: It involves several, including poverty, economics, civil liberties, and race. So I decided to toss it into the GD fray. Don't let it sink: As the price of housing becomes even more beyond the reach of everyday Americans and group housing becomes the only way to make it, we're going to see more laws like this on the books.

snip

There had been a complaint, he said. The city needed to know not just how many people lived there but how they were related. He handed Leyla Chavez a form and explained that she could be prosecuted for lying.

"Okay," she said and, in a mild state of shock, began filling it out.

There was Chavez and her husband. Their two sons. A nephew. The man who rented downstairs. His girlfriend.

"Your nephew, under our law, is considered unrelated," Purchase said, then delivered the verdict: Two people had to go.

That is because a zoning ordinance adopted this month by the city of Manassas redefines family, essentially restricting households to immediate relatives, even when the total is below the occupancy limit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/27/AR2005122701216.html

[benburch]

1. That is hideous.

And un-American.

[MountainLaurel]

3. I think of my mother's childhood

In small-town WV, where she and her cousins went back and forth between their homes, their grandparents' home, and their aunts and uncles, living for more than a year, sometimes, outside their nuclear family. Or when my grandmother was preparing to let my brother's best friend move in after he sought emancipation following a particularly severe beating from his parents. Under these laws, that would be illegal.

[trixie]

7. Exactly

When I was a kid we had a cousin living with us for a year while my aunt was in a TB rehab center. We also had a cousin live with us for a year when I was in high school because his high school had burned down. My mother has taken in relatives who go to college in our area etc.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. My Parents Raised Three Of My Cousins!

When i was 13, (my sister was 2), my aunt and uncle died. Their three kids were taken in by my parents and were like my brothers and sister from that point on. Under this law, they wouldn't have been family? This is outrageous.
The Professor

[kevinbgoode]

2. Oh..I think this can be easily struck down by the courts. . .

seems to me there was a SCOTUS decision a few decades ago which addressed an ordinance like this as undue interference in the privacy rights of individuals. She needs to challenge this - otherwise, the wacky Repukes will be trying to enforce anti-co-habitation laws again.

[SteppingRazor]

5. I'd almost guarantee the SCOTUS would nail this...

then again, it'll probably get tossed before it even reaches there. It's such a breathtakingly obvious-on-its-face unconstitutional law, even cheap thugs like Scalia will see it for what it is.

[ContraBass Black]

9. It's already being used.

A whole lot of people will be tossed out of their houses before it gets to any court.

They can go door to door on certain streets and find families that were previously legal but are now in violation.

[FreedomAngel82]

35. I hope so

Ugh. Your cousin is your family whether they came through blood or marriage. I have two cousin's who came through marriage and they're apart of the family just as much as my blood cousin's.

[ContraBass Black]

4. I live in and was raised in Manassas.

And I am livid.

In an hour, I'm going to go down the street and start raising hell with the neighbors.

I might stop by City Hall and tell them what I think, too.





EDIT: Does anybody know if this conflicts with state laws?

[LWolf]

10. I would think the first step

would be for someone to let people know that they can challenge the law,the next step would be getting some legal representation for them; and then, perhaps some demonstrations, LTTE, etc., showing that residents don't support this new regulation.

[ContraBass Black]

12. The hostility against the immigrant population is extreme here.

This is one of those places where people talk about hispanics as if they were cockroaches.

Ten to fifteen years ago, it was blacks, and my family was getting the looks.

Beating this will depend on getting the community at large out against it, including all races and economic levels. Manassas is full spectrum, and any single group will be written off without half a thought. I don't even know where the local civil liberties organizations are. I know that there's something of a Democratic office here, but not if it's strong. Is anyone else here from Manassas?

[EFerrari]

15. Go to the ACLU website. I think you can find your local office there.

Good luck.

[LWolf]

20. I'm a long way from Manassas.

With community sentiment like that, it may be a job for the ACLU. Framing the issue in such a way as to protest the "unintended consequences" for non-immigrants might help, as well.

In today's economy, it makes sense to share housing. I have 2 adult sons. One has been on his own for years now; he always has roommates to help with rent. One spent his years on his own as the roommate of several others, to keep rent costs down. Since he gained sole custody of his son, and became a full-time single parent, we moved him (and his son) back in with me to provide "home" instead of "rented room."

In Manassas, is it now forbidden to offer living space to non-nuclear family members or friends who would otherwise be homeless, or put into foster care?

Either a community wants to provide housing affordable to the lowest income, or people are going to be sharing.

[ContraBass Black]

24. Property values are up, crime is down.

From WP:

"Under the city's old zoning ordinance, there were three definitions of who could share a house: three unrelated people; two unrelated people and their children; or any combination of relatives, however extended, plus one unrelated person. It is the third definition that was changed under the new law.

"What we tried to do is define it in a way that was traditional, to make sure these peripheral people start to be winnowed out," Smith said.

According to the new definition, one unrelated person is still allowed. But everyone else must fall within the "second degree of consanguinity" from the person declared to be the head of household. Significantly, relationships are traced through the parents.

Thus, in Chavez's case, her nephew is three degrees: He is her parents' son's son and thus is considered unrelated."

[MountainLaurel]

26. Winnowed out

This family is being winnowed out alright, out to North Carolina since they've decided to move rather than put up with this shit.

[politicat]

33. They're violating tax laws....

If the IRS says you can claim your sister or brother's child as your dependent, that seems the better place to go.

That's a f#$^ed up definition of consanguinity.

[ObaMania]

50. Sure it makes sense, but..

.. why should people have to? Is this the American dream? People should be livid over non-affordable housing! Do you think I'm happy w/ my 1/2M McMansion? No! It's the best I can do in this area (Northern VA) if I want a single family home and be independent.

The law as I remember it in a few No. VA counties is 1 person occupancy per 100 Sq. ft. That's a lot of people living in a house. When I lived in Centreville, VA in a townhouse not far from Manassas, a Hispanic family lived on my street and there was 10 adults and kids in that house. That's alot of people for 2100 sq. ft. townhome. Because of this, there was a severe parking problem where this family had 5 cars (one broken down and unmoveable), and two work vans.

I am all for laws that restrict the number of people to a household, however they have to word it. Under the person per sq. ft. law, I can have fourty-some people living in my house which is ridiculous, IMO. No f'n way. There isn't enough room for me, my wife and my 2 dogs.

Sorry if you don't agree with my opinion but, if people accept high house prices as the norm and we are forced to live in this communal style, it's just going to get worse.

[MountainLaurel]

30. I have to wonder about something

When I first came to this area more than 10 years ago, Manassas was known for being a place where "immigrants" from the Appalachians had moved to for years before to find construction and retail jobs in the DC area. Ironically, it worked the same way: One couple came, and then cousins and nephews and siblings moved in as well.

I wonder what the reaction of locals was like then, and to what extent are those people the ones who now are all upset and reporting their neighbors to the police (which has such an East German feel to it, doesn't it?).

[primavera]

47. Wouldn't this conflict with the Fourth Amendment?

These inspectors are threatening people with criminal prosecution - not civil suit - if they lie on the forms. In any criminal matter, people cannot be required to provide incriminating evidence against themselves. So what would happen if one of these inspectors showed up at your door and wanted you to complete a form incriminating yourself and to inspect your home, couldn't you just say, "no thanks, come back when you've got enough probable cause to convince a judge to issue you a search warrant?" If your manner of gaining evidence against someone is to coerce, bully, and intimidate them into allowing you to conduct an unlawful search of your home, I would think any judge would consider that inadmissable. These officials ought to be explaining to people that they are not required to fill out this form, that they are not required to admit the officers into their home, in other words, they ought to be Morandized.

[MountainLaurel]

51. A different question

Since I know you're an immigration guru. :P How does the federal government define "family member" for purposes of the family-based immigration process? And doesn't the INS require one to prove the ability to support family members you're sponsoring as part of the application process?

It occurs to me that this type of law could cause problems for legal immigrants trying to bring over other family since there's a possibility the sponsoring relative could not house them according to local law.

[SmokingJacket]

6. A generous and flexible occupancy limit makes sense, for health

reasons. But it is NO ONE'S business how those people are related.

This is wrong in so many ways.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

8. They would have a field day at my house....

Let's see...

We have Me, my two boys, their father (who became my ex 12 years ago), his current wife (soon to be ex), her daughter and her daughter's baby boy.

Let's see them try and sort this one out! :P

[Nobody]

28. Young adults always have housemates

It's the only way young people can afford a house.

Roomies 1+2 were common law spouses in a state where common law marriage doesn't exist. They said husband and wife, but weren't legally. I paid rent. One roomie's co-worker was living in his van until we told him to live with us.

And would Manassas turn out victims of Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Wilma? In winter?

[Cassandra]

11. Seven people in a five bedroom house.

Sounds about right to me. Maybe they want to pass a law against houses with "too many" bedrooms.

[EFerrari]

16. It sounds more like they want to make poor people illegal. n/t

[ProfessorGAC]

18. Poor People? In A Five Bedroom House?

This law is trying to make it hard on immigrants and to restrict the definition of family so they can block gay marriage. It's transparent as glass.
The Professor

[EFerrari]

23. It's a two - fer. Block gay marriage and also use against

anyone that the community wants to kick out -- usually poor colorful people.

When I was a kid, I lived with my grandmother, mom, and two uncles in a three bedroom house. Today that house probably would sell for 3/4 of a million dollars. In those days, it was just a slightly rundown bungalow in an immigrant neighborhood.

[MountainLaurel]

25. VA has already done that

By enacting legislation a couple years ago that prohibits people of the same sex who are not related by blood from entering into legal contracts that would approximate the rights and benefits associated with marriage. One of the major reasons for doing so was to prohibit gays from buying homes together.

The WashPost Sunday Magazine wrote an incredible article a couple weeks ago about two women who have been together for more than 30 years who moved out of the state to MD because of the law. Doctors, attorneys, no one could tell them whether the law (and a zealous judge trying to make a point) would negate their living will and medical rights to look after the care of the other if one were incapicated (a quite relevant topic since one woman had an aneurysym a few years ago, during which hospital staff attempted to prohibit her partner from even going into the ICU).

[ProfessorGAC]

17. Per My Earlier Post; We Had 7 In A 4 Bedroom House

This law is preposterous. My cousins would have been distributed to the four winds had they not all come to live with us. Horrible, horrible law. Apparently, this is "family values".
The Professor

[ohio_liberal]

21. There are 7 of us in a 4 bedroom house

I had to take in a 17 year old kid two years ago. His mother had to throw him out because he had been busted for marijuana possession with a group of other kids. It violated the terms of her public housing. It's messed up to do this kind of shit to people.

[ProfessorGAC]

36. Your Sense Of "Family Values" Is Admirable

I was always proud of my parents for doing the right thing. BTW: I should note they asked me first. They didn't ram it down my throat. But, of course, since i was raised by these same "do the right thing" people, i didn't have any objections. So, they did good twice! They raised an unselfish kid and took in someone else's.

You are a good person O_L!
The Professor

[ohio_liberal]

53. Thanks for the kind words

You wouldn't believe the problems I've had with family and friends since I let the poor kid move in. They're convinced he's a violent drug dealer who is going to murder us all in our sleep. I've known the boy since he was 12 and he's a good kid. He suffers from glaucoma and smokes weed away from the house to relieve the symptoms. I just couldn't sit by when he had nowhere else to go. :(

[1monster]

13. They've done something similar in our small college town too.

And the county, as a whole, is planning on adopting the same policy. No more than three unrelated people in a house--any house.

I wonder how that law would apply where five unrelated people purchased a five-bedroom house as joint tenents. Under Florida law, each owner would have an undivided interest in the house. Could two of these people then be evicted from their house because of the three unrelated people maximum? Sounds like a lawsuit in the making.

(What happens if the home owners have legal guardianship over an unrelated person, i.e., the nephew?)

How have we let our local governments have so much power over who WE allow to live in OUR homes that we legally hold under the law?

[Gormy Cuss]

22. Good question on joint tenancy

I'd love to see them try to throw out an owner. Such joint tenancies becoming more common as a way to get into an expensive market or as a way for families to pay for off campus housing costs.

The Manassas law is overly restrictive and one round in court ought to do it in. As and earlier poster pointed out, the Chavez house had only 7 people living in 5 bedrooms -- hardly overcrowded. In fact, I'd say there's room for a couple more people before the municipality bothers to check.

(by the way, the article answers the question on guardianship - the nephew would be considered immediate family if there were such a legal arrangement.)

[Cassandra]

29. There was a real estate story in the NYTimes last year...

about a couple with a child who bought a brownstone with a friend. The couple took the gound floor with the backyard, the friend took the top floor with the roof and they rented out the middle floor to a couple. Seems to be working out fine and of course, in Manhattan, multiple dwellings are no problem. This sort of arrangement, with perhaps a single owner, has been going on since the Civil War.
Out in Queens and Westchester, as well as in Chinatown, there are problems with single family housing being subdivided into dormitories, which can grow to be a health hazard for those involved.

[tsuki]

19. My nieces and nephews are my immediate family. I stand as Godparent

to one. Is Manassas willing to accept the responsibility for housing and support of the nephew? I doubt that they want their precious tax dollars going there.

[ContraBass Black]

27. Oh, hell no they won't.

Two years ago, there was a massive outcry and mobilization when somebody tried to cancel the school arts programs (music, theater, visual arts) which involve 70% of the students in order to save money. I'd like to see something like that now, but this one isn't as likely to get the people who are well off to step up.

School starts here next week. I might go talk to some of my former teachers.

[Clara T]

31. Gated mentalities do this

http://www.brusselstribunal.org/index.htm

[newswolf56]

32. An absolutely predictable expression of American racism.

As Paul Krugman notes, we are the most savagely racist nation in the industrial world:

http://www.pkarchive.org/column/091905.html

...and this outrage in Manassas (and everywhere else it is being imposed) is merely more of the same viciousness. Which is precisely why the notion we can somehow turn America back toward progressive values seems increasingly absurd.

Were I younger, I would seriously consider moving to another country. But as a Social Security recipient, I am not allowed to immigrate.

[Tsiyu]

34. So , if people take in foster kids, will those kids now be booted out?

Ah! They are preparing their Faith-Based Poor and Ethnic Centers. All the kicked-out folks can live THERE if they accept Bush- I mean Jeebus - as their personal savior!

Why do you hate Jeebus and America, people?

[Jara sang]

37. This is in reaction to No. Virginia's burgeoning hispanic population

The elite want to have maids and lawn care workers, they just don't want them living near them. Add that to the fact that Manassas is almost totally red and there you have it.

[MountainLaurel]

38. But Manassas isn't particularly elite

In fact, I think the issue has more to do with the fact that the folks now living in Manassas are (a)those who fled places like Arlington and Falls Church because they were becoming "too urban" and (b) poor whites who never could afford to live closer in who had moved to the area from places like West Virginia and western Virginia because there were jobs but didn't want to live too close to the city.

[Jara sang]

39. All of NoVa is becoming the realm of the elite.

We were just living in Loudoun and we got pushed out because we couldn't afford to live there anymore.

[MountainLaurel]

40. I agree

We live in DC right now and will be relocating because there is no way we can buy a house any closer on the MD side than Poolesville. (My husband refuses to live in VA.)

[LostinVA]

52. Correct -- I was offered a great job in DC, but I couldn't even

afford a small apartment in Vienna. You have to be rich or live in a "commune" to afford to live anywhere in NOVA.

[SoCalDem]

45. Let's say you are rich.. you have a nanny and a maid

They live in..You have 4 kids and a husband.. Who has to move?

[ContraBass Black]

41. Ok, so rather than running off half-cocked and being ineffectual,

I've decided to calm down and see what I can do about this rationally.

I've already started spreading word around.

I go back to school in two weeks.

[Lex]

42. How many warm bodies can you get to the next City Council meeting?

How many different people will be willing to write letters to the editor of the local paper?

Is there a sympathetic writer at the local paper who will do a story on people who are being affected?

There are the 3 places I'd start.

[ContraBass Black]

56. At this point, I'd have to guess

Not more than one.

I haven't been able to stir up anything more than, "That's awful. Ho hum."

[MountainLaurel]

43. Wow, thanks everyone!

This is probably the first thread I've posted in the four years I've been here that got more than 20 replies.

[donheld]

44. This is totally insane

:grr::banghead:

[SoCalDem]

46. My son qualified ON HIS OWN for an apartment

The landlord KNEW he was planning on having a roommate. When his roommate was about to move in, the landlord insisted on a credit check for the roommate..He did not pass muster, so for the first 3 months my son lived there he had to cover the rent on that two bedroom on his own. :grr:.. If he and his fiancee had moved in together, she woujld not have had to have a credit check..

My son was so pissed, but he loved the apartment and eventually found a "suitable" roommate..

Riverside CA

[seabeyond]

48. my miece lives here on and off when her father works off shore

he is a good ole repug dude. i will let him know there could be issue there. is my brother allow to stay in my home? how about my father if he gets old and needs to live with us?

[newswolf56]

49. This needs to be kept alive. Come on folks, let's vote it up!

Voted (first vote)/kicked.

[WinkyDink]

54. Local zoning laws CAN limit the number of dwellers in a domicile,

I thought.
Prevents Mental Health Group Housing where residents say NIMBY.
Prevents college kids from living 20 to a house.
Prevents large families of immigrants from inviting more.

Not saying it's right.

[MountainLaurel]

55. It's not the limits that are the issue

It's how they're defining family, so that extended families are prohibited. And as someone posted upthread, the case mentioned here involved 7 people in a five-bedroom house, including two couples. There was no severe overcrowding.