On the current impasse with North Korea; correct me if I am wrong, but...

[tjwash]

...didn't North Korea promise to give up their nuclear program while Bill Clinton was president?

He sent Jimmy Carter to the region in the mid-nineties. In exchange for not starting or pursuing a nuclear arms program, we would help them start a nuclear power plant program. If they adhered, there would be an end put to the economic sanctions that had been in place for the previous years. They were also to enjoy the rights that all sovereign nations across the world have. It was a fair deal for both sides, and North and South Korea marched together in the Olympic games under the same flag if I recall, shortly after that.

But what was the first thing that Bush* did did when he entered office in 2000? Completely discarded that treaty, and gave a big Texas sized fuck-you to the rest of the world when they objected.

One of the questions I had at the time, was why would Dubya discard a treaty that was beneficial to the US and others in the region? Did he want solutions or more problems? Of course that question got answered rather quickly, and the exclamation point got put on it recently during the six-party talks, when the U.S. passed even more sanctions on North Korea; punishing them at the same time that they were trying to negotiate with them.

It's pretty common knowledge now, that GWB actually wants war instead of peace so that his defense contractor pals stay fat and happy, but back when he first stole office in 2000, it was impossible to convince anyone of it at the time. By the time he started to blitzkrieg across Iraq and the rest of the Middle East it was too late.

I'm guessing this whole mess is Kim Jong Il's way of pointing all of that out, but seeing how the American press is so fucked anymore, they keep forgetting to mention the WHY we are at this difficult crossroads with North Korea. Most of the MSM has taken the high road and just used the Carter/Clinton negotiations to spoon feed the ignorant masses with "See the NK debacle is all Bill Clinton's fault" propaganda.

I'm just unsure of how the current situation can be salvaged. And not just now, I'm talking EVER. Our word is pretty much shit around the world now, and rightly so seeing how we just break international treaties at will and with the utmost impunity. I am just worried if we will ever gain even a tiny shred of what we used to have, even under the best of future circumstances. Of course taking back the H.O.R. and the Senate next month, and the Presidency in 2008 would be a good start, but will it be enough? The damage done to our country in the eyes of the world by this current group seems almost beyond repair.

Suggestions anyone?

[Ravenseye]

1. Well you mentioned the first step

Vote for a Democratic majority in both houses now, and President in 2008.

Other than that...

-Bring diplomacy back to the table.
-Help countries around the world in non-military ways, without strings attached.
-Form partnerships with other countries, instead of making our friends and neighbors feel like they're being treated as our underlings.

there are more, but no quick fixes. It took 4 years to build the twin towers and less than 2 hours to knock them both down. Trust and respect is built and earned. It takes a long time to be established, but can be destroyed in a heartbeat. It may take decades to earn back even a modicum of the respect we had 10 years ago, if it's even possible. All we can do is be contrite, apologize, and work in positive ways to re-establish and re-earn the respect and trust we once had.

The election of George W. Bush in 2000 will go down as a major turning point in the history of our country, and not a good one at that. Or it will go down as a shot to the face, but one that we took and stood back up. It's up to us.

[On the Road]

2. And Don't Forget the Nobel Peace Prizes

awarded for the North-South Korea Sunshine Initiative. They don't hand those out for hot air. And who does Bush appoint but our friend John Bolton. He was given the type of task that he does best, namely to enrage everyone and make enemies out of negotiation partners.

It is apparently true that North Korea was continuing to pursue nuclear weapons on a clandestine basis, but they had to avoid intrusive monitoring, were going slowly, and were less inclined to actually test or use the weapons in the improving political climate. They might actually have abandoned the program if relations with the South and the US had kept improving.

I really doubt anything is possible until 2009. A that point, the Sunshine initiative can be reopened, but with a more hostile North Korea that is in a much stronger negotiating position.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. Well, we were TOLD that they were clandestinely pursuing nukes;

you have to remember who it was that told us so. And even at that, it was a full year and a half after that 'revelation' that N Korea told the UN inspectors to leave, and broke the seals on the nuclear facility that had been closed as a result of Clinton's negotiations. We had also, in that time, abrogated our agreement to provide coal for their power plants, leaving them with the option of restarting their nuclear power program or being very, very cold - and N Korean winters are very, very cold.

Bush has been wanting a war with them. That's why he had the US troops pull back from the DMZ. He was expecting N Korea to take that bait. Problem is, they're crazy, not stupid (and probably not a crazy as Bushco wants us to believe).