Before we get all warm and fuzzy over the Amish...

[Virginia Dare]

First of all, let me say what happened in Pennsylvania was a terrible tragedy and my heart goes out to all of those who have suffered...

However, let us not lose sight of the fact that the Amish are not saints, while I can admire the fact that they are able to exist without all of the commercial trappings that we seem to think are so vital, they have their issues.

The community as a whole supports corporal punishment, and in some cases spousal abuse. I think one of my main issues with them is their use of "puppy mills" as a means of support, and they have been known to treat their animals deplorably.

Just sayin', the Amish are not by any means the idyllic people they've been made out to be.

http://www.amishabuse.com/

http://www.pixiedustpapillons.com/amish_puppy_mills.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. ...

1. The Amish shooting is a distraction. It's another random act of violence. It's local news.

2. The Amish are just like everybody else.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. The puppy mill thing is a biggie for me...

:grr:

[MrModerate]

3. I don't think their virtue is the issue here . . .

They're a wounded community dealing with their hurt with dignity, a grace that others would find difficult to match.

[seriousstan]

8. As the OP and several responses have proven.

[smtpgirl]

14. I couldn't have said it better, the Amish

have exhibited grace & dignity, traits others can't seem to grasp.

Every religion, culture, custom has negatives, so please let them grieve in peace!!!!

[Mad_Dem_X]

33. Well said! Please, let's just stop

with the Amish bashing.

[derby378]

4. Of course they're not saints - but then, who is?

So the Amish consider us all untermensch because we have laptops and cell phones and all that. But no denomination or sect is perfect.

[april]

5. And where did you get your info???

[Virginia Dare]

12. I have personal experience with their animal abuse issues...

and I have provided links, you can choose to believe the info or not.

[napi21]

6. I agree. The puppy millsare a hugh issue for me too.

I am a rescue foster mom for puppy mill dogs, and believe me, they can instantly bring tears to anyone's eyes!

Itry to put that aside when I say, I feel very sad that some AH killed those little girls. Amish or not, that was a tragedy!

[smtpgirl]

17. So what about all the other animals that non-Amish own

that are abused, starved and neglected, have you ever watched Animal Precinct, et.al??????

[Virginia Dare]

19. You miss my point...

I deplore anyone who abuses animals.

There are segments of the Amish community that derive much of their income from the exploitation and abuse of animals. It is something that shouldn't be tolerated, but it is.

When I became aware of this issue it changed my view of the Amish community.

[napi21]

24. Yes, andI'm sure not saying the Amish are the only group guilty

of horrible abuse...for monitary gain! Thegroup I volunteer for is national, and we have rescued over 600 Bichons this year so far. We try to get them all, but there are legal hurdles too. Believe me, we do our very best.

We are NOT the only rescue group by any streach, and all do as much as they possibly can.

Some are breed specific, and some are general rescues. If you are a patient person who loves animals, there's a rescue group for any and all animals, and you should contact one to volunteer as a foster home. We all need all the help we can get.

[madmusic]

7. Why not let them have their noble dignity in this crisis?

At least in this tragedy they aren't being hypocrites.

[Virginia Dare]

11. I don't have a problem with their response to the murders...

but I've had a big problem with their abuse of animals for a while. Sorry, it's a sore spot for me, I've been involved in rescuing some of the animals who have suffered from their abuse.

[madmusic]

15. How many animals?

How many abusers? At the risk of sounding snaky, is it enough to cast a negative label over the entire community?

[Virginia Dare]

16. It's widespread enough for me to...

others may not agree.

[madmusic]

20. Well, I'd never agree to animal abuse either.

But that's not the point. How many compared to the normal population?

Guess I'm a bit touchy because Christians are so often hypocritical and when this community isn't, there is still antagonism. No offense, and it's not just this thread.

If every person could make their own death penalty laws and could legally enforce them, everyone would be dead. That's too extreme for what you are saying, true, and I think it's really cool you care about animals, so don't get me wrong.

[Virginia Dare]

23. I understand...

I grew up going for drives in the Amish countryside, and I always viewed it as an idyllic paradise. But when I became personally aware of this aspect of the community it changed my view of them forever.

edit:

If youre interested, just do a simple google search, you will see that this is a particularly repugnant practice of them deriving income from the exploitation and abuse of animals.

[madmusic]

56. Not now.

The murders there are tragic and their dignity is stunning. We can be fairly sure the images we see and the news we hear are real. Puppymills may or may not be real, which is not to say I don't believe you, but there is the sense in my emotional imagination that I don't want to taint the moment with puppymills. This is in a lot of ways a national moment.

[riderinthestorm]

26. The Amish perspective on animals is just different

They treat their animals in a much more utilitarian way than most non-Amish pet owners. Animals are not anthropomorphized, they are not coddled, they are not pets. They are there to serve a functional need: food and assistance and sustenance (money). This kind of attitude was/is fairly prevalent in most agricultural areas but since we are so urbanized/surburbanized it isn't a very popular way to deal with animals anymore.

HOWEVER....

We have 5 draft horse teams from the Amish, we deal with them for harness and other carriage needs, we go to their auctions regularly for horse drawn equipment etc. so I can speak from personal experience, many if not most of them would be in some serious shit for their horsecare alone from the ASPCA if anyone cared to report them. Many of their horses are put to work when they are obviously lame. Ill-fitting harness, too large of a workload, poor caretaking and more are some of the most obvious problems I see a lot in their community.

I watched just a snippet of the coverage of the funerals on tv while I was waiting for an oil change (I don't have tv so I never usually watch), and most of those horses were lame in the spots they showed tonight. I shudder at the condition of their feet that I know I would find.

I can admire their forgiveness, I can empathize and weep with them for their losses, I can fume at the invasion of their privacy and still get majorly cranked at their treatment of animals. This doesn't make me a monster and it doesn't make others monsters who are pointing this out right now.

(I didn't know about the puppy mills... more shuddering...).

[TorchTheWitch]

54. the Amish are the MAIN source of the puppy mill pups

in the Lancaster County area. This area also has more mills than I believe anywhere else in the country.

The short answer to your question is ABSOLUTELY.

It's hardly just the dogs and puppy mill issue either. These people are primarily farmers and have a whole lot of other species besides dogs. They believe animals are property, only serve a function and are free to be abused at their whim. And they make no apology about it.

[kestrel91316]

32. You GO girl!!!!! 'Cause we ALL KNOW that the Amish are ALL

bigtime animal abusers, and absolutely nobody else is.

Time to put a HATE on 'em, for sure!!!!!!!!!!!

:sarcasm:

I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Amish understand the basic principal of animal husbandry: sick, starved, mistreated animals are NOT PROFITABLE. Also, they understand that they are part of God's creation and not to be mistreated.

But let's be sure to tar all of them with the same brush because SOME of them are ignorant fools. Especially in their very public time of grief.

Shame on you. Leave this for another time.

[Epiphany4z]

9. I live out by the amish

there is good and bad as in any community. What ever there short comings they really have put out a great example during this tragedy.

In our area they are not known to be the most humane to animals, and there is a big problem with birth defects ..due to the fact that they don't have a huge dating pool. They don't exactly make do without modern machines they just don't own them. They travel in cars/vans use phones work in factories and wall mart and so on try to get by like the rest of us.

One on one I know one who is not nice to animals and another that has a heart of gold pretty much like my yankee neighbors. Both don't try to convert my heathen ars and are good parents. I am aware of a family that had an abuse problem but i can say the same of a couple of non amish families I know.

from what I can see they are different but no better and worse than the rest of us..

[SeaBob]

10. puppymills

Can you verify your source other than the internet? any conversation notes? any newspaper articles any other way to confirm your statements? noe last question why did you post this now?

[Virginia Dare]

13. Yes, I have personal experience with dogs...

who have been rescued from the puppy mills, they exist.

If you're curious, run a simple google search, you will see numerous links to the information.

I posted it, because it is a sore spot with me.

[TorchTheWitch]

50. "other than the internet" - uh, where do you think you're at?

How can you ask someone to verify an internet source ON the internet? If you don't trust anything on the internet than what are you doing on it? The only other source you may believe that isn't the internet is to haul your ass over here in Amish country and see for your own self.

The puppy mill providing Amish has not been a big secret here, and they themselves have never tried to make it one. They are the biggest puppy mill providers there are in Lancaster County. Period. THEY are the biggest reason that's it's been next to impossible to shut them down... they refuse to stop breeding the pups and selling them to the mills, and they make no apology about it.

Puppies and dogs isn't the only problem... they are generally abusive to all their animals. They consider animals property to be used and discarded as they wish, and RESENT anyone trying to "interfere" to the point of attempting to cover up/hide the evidence when anyone tries. They feel they have the RIGHT to not follow any governmental law they don't happen to agree with.

This is a BIG DEAL in this area, and if you're unwilling to believe an internet source (that you use yourself, by the way, in other matters) then come on over and find out for yourself.

[az chela]

18. I saw a true story on tv a few months ago about an amish girl

who was repeatedly raped by her 4 brothers.When she found out they were going after her 11 year old sister she went to the police.There was a trial and the boys admitted their guilt and the mom testified in support of them even tho the girl had told her mom about it many times.The boys were found guilty and served a few months in jail and the girl was shunned by the amish people.
The girl wa 15 when she pressed chatges and it had been going on for a few years at that point.The brothers would wait in the barn til she came to do her chores and then grab her.

[Epiphany4z]

22. unfortunately I have

seen stories like that about non amish people too. Like said they are different no better and no worse than the rest of us.

[kestrel91316]

37. This sort of thing goes on "english" society. I would be willing

to venture a guess that it affects the same or probably even a much lower percentage of Amish families than us "english". But if it gets into the news, it's SUCH a big deal (I suspect because it is so extraordinarily rare).

[elocs]

45. This sad rape story occurred in the part of western Wisconsin

where I live. Here is the story: http://atheism.about.com/b/a/108249.htm

"I was molested by my father when I was 3 and gang-raped day after day by my cousins and brothers, starting when I was 6 or 7," told the Star Tribune before Wednesday's sentencing. Byler, 20, alleges that she was raped more than 200 times by members of the Amish family in which she grew up. "And when I'd tell my mother about it, she'd tell me that if I had prayed harder, fought harder, these things wouldn't happen.“

"I was sent to school ... and my mother told me, 'If you truly don't want this to happen, it won't.' I've been judged by the Amish all my life. I've been on trial all my life." ... Eli Byler, 24, who told the Star Tribune in April that he first raped his sister when Mary was 8 and he was 12, was sentenced to eight years in prison Wednesday after previously pleading guilty to one count of the sexual assault of a child. "Eli, I hope you still hear my screaming in your nightmares," Mary Byler said in court, reading from a prepared statement as family members and nearly two dozen other Amish listened. "You were my brother. "You should have protected me . . . and you raped me."

Eli Byler, one of three brothers charged with sexual assault of a child, told the court, "I believe God will forgive me."

When the brothers were sentenced, the courtroom was packed with the Amish and there were many tears--not for the victim of years of horrible rape by her family members, but for her brothers who raped her. The judge was disgusted by their reaction and called them on it, but the Amish could only hang their heads. Yes, in some evil ways the Amish are just like everyone, although you would be hard pressed to find other examples where an entire community supported rapists who made their little sister's life a living hell. There was nowhere she could go to be safe. They would rape her when she went to the outhouse. She would lock her bedroom door, but they would climb a ladder to get through her bedroom window. She finally found the courage to report her brothers and their repeated rapes of her over the years when she found they were going after her little sister.

Today this girl is free and living a regular life. Unfortunately she is estranged from her family and the Amish community and cannot see her little sister whose life she saved. I saw video of her on one of the network news shows shopping at a store not a mile from my house. They showed her driving a car and smoking and listening to rock music, but unfortunately she has chosen a career unusual for somebody who has Amish roots--she joined the Army.

[Mike03]

21. Yuck

I had no idea about this. This is a really serious issue to me because I have volunteered at shelters and adopted shelter animals for years, and abuse of animals would seem to contradict a "reverence" for life. I really dislike and distrust belief systems that justify the denigration of animals.

[cynatnite]

25. We can learn a lot from them...

despite what we don't like about them, they do know what forgiveness, peace and love means. Too many people in this world have no clue what those attributes mean and it's something everyone can learn more about.

As much as I don't like how they live, I do respect them...far more than the repukes in charge who don't have a moral bone in their body.

The Amish, in this tragedy, have shown grace and dignity.

[razors edge]

27. Sure some do run puppy mills,

some do many things most of us will not agree with since we don't live their lives.

but can't we wait till the dead are a little cooler in the ground before condemning them in a public forum they will not have access to, in order to defend themselves.

[rug]

28. There is no comparison.

Unless you think their display of forgiveness is false, their reaction to these murders is stunning.

Puppy mills and animal abuse are obviously wrong, but have nothing to do with what's occurring.

Save it for another day.

[riderinthestorm]

29. And have the thread drop like a stone since it isn't the topic du jour

The OP acknowledged the forgiveness, acknowledged the loss but we're not Amish (are you?)

Discussing tangents without censure would seem to be a good thing.... right?

[rug]

31. Who cares if the thread drops.

Post it again tomorrow.

Considering I'm posting on the internet, it's a safe assumption I'm not Amish.

Would you have liked to discuss, without censure, the role of Shiite women at the time Abu Gharib broke?

[riderinthestorm]

35. So throwing in some education tomorrow is better than today?

Uhm.... :eyes:

I don't get that whole "hands off" certain topics cause we must be... what? respectful?. I just don't. I'm Irish that way - everything is fair game at the wake and funeral and beyond.

[rug]

40. There is such a thing as shutting your mouth and watching a wonder.

This is one of those times.

It has nothing to do with delicacy, censorship - or eyerolling.

Given the bloodshed that steadily streams across your screen, a moment like this is worth considering.

Animal and spousal abuse are not new, and will still be not new tomorrow.

[riderinthestorm]

43. Thanks for implying that I can't watch wonders and ponder other things

If it is a problem for you that others can do this, why don't you just hide these kinds of threads then?

The forgiveness is wonderful, there's other stuff that's not. Clearly anything that intrudes on your wonder is making you cranky. Why suffer then?

That said, so tomorrow would be your arbitrary standard for discussing these types of issues?

I would posit that there are others who would argue for a week, or a month, or a few weeks - whatever. I would posit that there are some for whom this kind of discussion of some of the Amish's animal practices would be problematic at any time, they revere Amish ways and would take issue with any negative discussion.

For whatever it's worth, you have been respectful and polite in asking me to stop any discussion of this kind for tonight. Thank you for that. I will in deference to you. Thanks for asking nicely!
:hug:

[rug]

47. You're welcome.

I've moved on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2337324

Peace.

[riderinthestorm]

49. I don't own a tv and am on a dial-up connection so bringing up

pictures is nearly impossible for me (I live in a rural area) although I've seen them elsewhere when I have a chance to get on a DSL line. I'm posting a reply to you in hopes of bumping up the thread and perhaps more people will go to your link.

Peace back atcha.

[razors edge]

34. not when it sounds like

capitalizing on tragedy.

[riderinthestorm]

38. "Capitalizing on tragedy" is a far stretch from the OP, imho

So no discussion allowed eh?

What's the grieving time whereby we aren't allowed to discuss anything negative about the Amish? Clearly you have set yourself up as the arbiter....

:eyes:

Look, that isn't "my" way of dealing with a tragedy obviously, nor is it others' as demonstrated on this thread. We've expressed our empathy with their tragedy and have moved on to further discussion.

You've obviously never been to an Irish wake/funeral/post party....

[razors edge]

57. Actually my reference to capitalizing on tragedy

was in reference to your post, hence my reply to you.

"And have the thread drop like a stone since it isn't the topic du jour"

sounds a lot to me like you advocate moving forward an unrelated agenda while the "topic du jour" is still fresh, just like the corpses of the Innocent girls being buried.

"Clearly you have set yourself up as the arbiter...."

I posted "not when it sounds like capitalizing on tragedy" in response to your question "Discussing tangents without censure would seem to be a good thing.... right?" I fail to see how I have set myself up as anything other an object of your derision for having a differing view. I have no control over anyone's actions or opinion's but my own. My only action was to post a response that was my opinion.

"You've obviously never been to an Irish wake/funeral/post party...."

You have amazing powers of observation. I am a hillbilly, as you would probably refer to me, raised in north east Kentucky. We don't think about Irish, German, Italian etc, we just always thought of ourselves as americans. Our "wake" consists of moonshine and herb. My brothers and I have a beer and a joint on the way to the graveside, do a catch and carry from the meat wagon, pretend to listen to some preacher and go back to the house for a day's worth of drunken remembrance and more food than we could possibly finish. All aspects of the dearly departed are open fodder for discussion.

Sound about close?

How do reflection good and bad, of the deceased by family and friends compare to generalizations of an entire race, creed, religion in a public forum by strangers.

[razors edge]

62. .............

:eyes:

[kestrel91316]

30. Sheesh. ANOTHER "let's all remember to hate the Amish" thread.

[Erika]

36. The 13 year old girl said "shoot me first"

She was the oldest.

[kestrel91316]

44. I feel very small and weak compared to her right now.

From the time they are old enough to learn, they are taught to LIVE by Jesus' teachings, not spout them. In her case it seems to have stuck.

[cynatnite]

46. They all handled this tragedy with grace and dignity...

While I don't agree with most of their beliefs, I can't help but admire their unselfish ability to forgive and to love.

[Erika]

61. She was a class act

as is the Amish community who are enveloping the killer's family with love and warmth.

[bling bling]

55. Are you being sarcastic?

You really ought to be thankful. People are trying to help you out by bringing your focus where it belongs: on the NEGATIVE. Sheesh is right. There can't be too many friendly, patronizing reminders of why people should NOT focus on the positive aspect of other people.

So the next time you get some wild and crazy idea about complimenting a group of people, be sure to check in here first in order to be straightened out on all the reasons why you might want to put such positive feelings out of your mind.

In fact, in the future, you may just want to check yourself before admiring anything about anybody else, because -- after all -- the chances are pretty good that some of the people that those people know or live among may be BAAADDD, which will invalidate all admirable qualities of any of them altogether.

[Virginia Dare]

63. Thanks for running all over my thread putting

words in my mouth, and thoughts in my head.

[enigmacat]

39. I never thought they were saints, BUT...

Could you forgive someone who executed your child?

[Cleita]

41. I don't know of any religious cult that doesn't have a dark side, but

now in their moment of tragedy and grief is not the time to be airing this.

[hlthe2b]

42. NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THIS...

You say, "First of all, let me say what happened in Pennsylvania was a terrible tragedy and my heart goes out to all of those who have suffered..." yet you can not wait to start another bash Amish thread...


Well, I would say that says it all... THe Amish have their faults as any society, but they did NOTHING to deserve or incite this. Rather, they have been responding to this tragedy in a means more humane and honorable (and dare I say it, CHRISTIAN) than most could have imagined..


Perhaps it would do many here who have chosen NOW to be the time to catalogue all the sins of Amish or Mennonites, or people they "think" might be Amish or Mennonites to sit down and examine why it is they feel the need to do so NOW? And, if you don't feel just a twinge of guilt in doing so, I feel VERY VERY sorry for you. :shrug:

Flame away at me if you wish.... I've had it with this overwhelming urge by a minority on DU to use this opportunity to strike away at a group few of us really understand... To stereotype all of them by the sins of some, though, is unconscionable...

[walldude]

48. No flames..I believe it's called kicking someone when they are down...

If this was such an important issue why wait till now to bring it up? How about we deal with all the human abuse first, then worry about the damn puppies...

[hlthe2b]

52. YesWalldude... the only thing that distinquishes some

of these posts from those on Free Republic is that the subject there is Muslims.... An entire people/religion stereotyped for the wicked deeds of some...

It truly truly saddens me.

[Virginia Dare]

64. Give me a break...n/t

[hlthe2b]

66. I'm guessing

the truth hurts...

[maseman]

51. Man people on DU sometimes make me cringe

Please name a society that doesn't have its ills? I married a former Mennonite who grew up in one of the most populated Amish communities in the US. I spend much time at my parents-in-law's house and know quite a few of the Amish neighbors. They are actually fairly normal people who are just deeply religious and tend to shy away from commercial dealings.

There are problems with spousal abuse and genes that are a "little too alike" in some cases, but the myths of the Amish are pretty far stretched. I just called my mother-in-law and asked about "Puppy mills" and she had no idea what I was talking about. Neither did my father-in-law. I am not denying that they don't care for animals as we "English" do as pets, but they do use them more as utilities. They drive horses until they are nearly dead but they view it liek we would driving an old car until it rusts away.

One note though...I have eaten dinner with the amish and there is not much desired by them to smell good. Whewww!

[boolean]

67. What is WRONG with you people? When IS the time, then?

Geez. We had this same thing happen when the crock hunter died. "Now is not the time" and "be sensitive" posts.

I have news for you: The amish are NOT READING THIS BOARD. They don't even have electricity.

Tell me what the official period of time is before someone is allowed to post something that criticizes the practices of a fundamentalist group of people who abuse animals and treat women like slaves. Is it a week? A month? A year?

Months from now any posts about the amish will fall like a stone to page 15 in a matter of minutes, because the next topic du jour will be dominating it. Now *IS* the time, because now is when it's in the news.

What happened to them really sucks, and yes, I do feel for them. Nobody deserves what happened to them, no matter who they are or how much you disagree with them.

BUT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH POSTING SOMETHING ON A MESSAGE BOARD THAT IS CRITICAL OR NEGATIVE. It does NOT imply that thee OP is saying the Amish "deserved" what happened to them. And it's even sillier to think that we ought to refrain from posting because it's somehow disrespectful or rude. This is an internet message board. This is not the equivalent of going to the funeral and stomping on the graves or following the OTHER "Christian" nutjobs of Fred Phelps and protesting that God is mad at them.

Honestly. Some of you need to grow a little bit of a thicker skin. I just don't get the "don't kick them when they're down" mentality. We codemn Pat Robertson and his ilk all the time around here, deservedly so. If some terrible thing were to happen to one of those Jesus Camps where they brainwash children, what would be the proper amount of time to wait before we could post about how absolutely horrified we are at them?

[hlthe2b]

69. Your unfocused condemnation for a group of people

seemingly knows no bounds. Why are your so determined to "balance" the natural sympathy being shown them with your broad brush swipe at them? Of course there are things about the Amish that many of us might not approve of-- I dare say the same might be true of your own extended family and community. Should we all be judged by the misdeeds of a few?


Perhaps, my dear, you should look inward a bit, when you ask "what is wrong with you people." What really is fueling your need to deride this group of people, of whom you know little beyond the sensational news reports that come when a black sheep among them is exposed to those of us on the outside? Do you really have a need to hate them? That is really how it is coming across :shrug:

[boolean]

70. I don't hate them. I don't really have much of an opinion on them

To be honest, I don't really have much of an opinion on the Amish. They live their lives and they don't bother anyone else or impose their beliefs on anyone else.

My beef is with all you DUers who don't understand that this is an internet message board, not a funeral home. If there is a legitimate critique of a group of people, be they the Amish, the Evangelicals, the rich, the freeptards, we shouldn't have to wait a specified period of time after a tragedy before critisising them.

If a group of freepers got together and a bomb went off and they all died, would we all stop calling them freeptards? THEY'RE a group of people too, are they not? Do we not swipe them with a broad brush on a DAILY basis? And I'm not saying that's wrong.

The starter of this thread pointed out some things about the Amish. He/She even included some links about animal abuse and talked about corporal punishement. But because a recent tragedy was inflicted upon a small group of Amish people, you felt the need to respond with "it's not the time for this". Does that make the OP's links any less valid? Does that make the OP's opinion wrong? If not, then WHEN is it time to discuss those very real issues? Frankly, I don't think it's fair to the OP.

[hlthe2b]

71. Well, I do know one group who would back you up...

since they too take tragedies as a chance to excoriate a larger group for the supposed "sins" of the few.... Perhaps you've heard of them? They hail from Kansas and are all devotees of Fred Phelps....

All cynicism aside, the issue is not that one can not criticize the Amish. It is that the mere mention of sympathy for them given what has occurred has incited an incredibly onslaught of really ugly posts. Threads that express even remote levels of admiration for their response to the horror, incites scores of posts that are really ugly stereotypical condemnations-- typically based on very little understanding and misunderstanding... It is clear from many of these posts that those criticizing don't even know the difference between the Amish and Mennonites and other related groups...:shrug:

That these posters feel a need to do so NOW after a horrible tragedy, rather than bring it up as a topic under religion, or whatever other related issue IS EXPLOITATIVE and appears quite bigoted, especially when they show they know very little about the groups they are criticizing... In doing so we become the far left equivalent of Free Republic (all Muslims "bad," = all Amish "bad")

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. Nothing I Respect Less Than Those Who Can't Handle When Others Are Boosted

up and must find a way to tear them down. It's always such a sad sight to see in my opinion.

Everybody has their flaws. There ain't a one of us that's clean. There are things that all of us do wrong and every community has its ills as well. But maybe the world would be a better place if we could focus on the positives within each of us and our communities, rather than seeking to find that which we can use to tear down instead. At the least, when a community is deservingly receiving sympathy and respect for the things they do that are positive, or anyone is being praised on this earth for doing something positive, it would be better for everyone if we didn't rush in as quickly as possible to tear the positives down. I have never found anything to ever be weaker or less respectful.

My apologies for the honesty.

[FlaGranny]

60. What you said. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

58. No, they're not perfect. And I'm not keen on their

views on plenty of things.

But what they have done here isn't any less admirable because of it. If they wished to show their faith in action, they could not have chosen a better way to do it.

The entire country has lived through this horror with them, thanks to 24 hour news. How many of us can honestly say we'd be able to offer such complete forgiveness so soon? I'd like to think I could, but I don't know.

I think it's a good idea to take the good lessons offered, and just pass by the rest. If their example on this can serve to show me something, then I can't turn away that gift.

[meisje]

59. Why do you hate Jebediah

[Bucky]

65. Here's why I get warm and fuzzy over the Amish right now

They walk the walk. Sure I disagree with much of what they believe, but they invited the killer's family to some of their funerals. They don't attack others for holding different beliefs. The live a kind of value system that inspires a 13 year old girl under threat of her life to do this:

Amish Schoolgirl Hoped to Spare Others

Two of the survivors of the shooting told their parents that 13-year-old Marian Fisher, one of the slain girls, asked to be shot first, apparently hoping the younger girls would be let go, according to Leroy Zook, an Amish dairy farmer.

"Shoot me and leave the other ones loose," Marian has been quoted as saying, Zook said. His daughter, Emma Mae Zook, was the teacher who ran from the schoolhouse to a farm to summon police.

Amish builder David Lapp said Marian's younger sister Barbie, who is recovering from gunshot wounds, provided one of the accounts.

"Her sister remembers it, Barbie," Lapp said.

I think they've earned a good deal more than warm and fuzzy from the sick society that produced their daughters' killer.

[BeachBuckeye]

68. Amen and thank you

I lived among the Amish for most of my life and although they have a bad apple or two among them they are, on the whole a very good and decent group of people. It truly pains me that this original post has made selective accusations about them. I did business with them for nearly 30 years and not once did I ever run into any dishonesty or sinful behavior from them.

They are a good and gentle people and your charges hold no merit whatsoever.