Can we stop with the RIDICULOUS "gays versus blacks" threads?

[readmoreoften]

You might as well have a WOMEN versus BLACKS thread. As if black people aren't ALSO female. As if black people aren't ALSO gay.

Gay is not synonymous with WHITE, PRIVILEGED, and MALE, although the christian fundamentalists have certainly worked hard to push that perception (gay people are all rich elites; they don't have kids to think of; they're sick hedonists).

1) Blacks, whites, Asians, Native Americans, and Arabs are gay at the same rate. It is a cross-cultural, multiethnic, transracial multiethnic issue. NEWSFLASH: The US media only focuses on wealthy white gay males because people in the US don't care about the poor, minorities, or women.

2) This is a major Karl Rove engineered plan that has even been talked about in the media Rove was behind putting anti-gay color magazine inserts into newspapers in African-American neighborhoods saying that the GLBT movement was trying to trivialize the civil rights movement. The goal is to steal 3% of the African-American vote over homophobia by 2008. So, that's for doing Karl Rove's work on DU. I'm sure he appreciates your compliance.

Having a poll about this is tantamount to having a poll that reads WHICH IS MORE IMPORTANT!!!111 ABORTION OR THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAIMATION!!11 PICK ONE!!!

Personally, there's been so much "blame it on the gay" in the past few days, that I'm going to take a break form these boards. Don't worry I fully understand that I am a privileged, civil-rights-thunder stealing, whiny, selfish, anathema to the Democratic party whose existence somehow both trivializes African-American history and offends Christian sensibilities. Some of you really don't like us. We get the point.

Meanwhile, let's stop doing Karl Rove's work for him.

[mondo joe]

1. The Repub method is to pit minorities against each other, as if

freedom and equality are a pie and if someone else gets some yours is diminished.

Every oppressed group has its own unique struggles. Doesn't make one worse than the other.

Thanks for the well timed post!

[readmoreoften]

3. Yeah, it's not a zero sum game.

It's not like when the gays win, the blacks lose. It's when the gays and the blacks win, then the black gays FINALLY get a piece of the pie too. Jesus, this isn't rocket science people.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

2. K&R!!!

Thank you.

[readmoreoften]

4. Wow. I guess we can't. /nt

[Solly Mack]

5. :)

I think you're great!!

[Bluebear]

29. :)

[NavyDavy]

6. just another divide and conquer strategy thks to Rover

[IntravenousDemilo]

7. You know what? Gay is the new black.

That being said, it would be refreshing if the gay community could get some solidarity from the black community for a change, but I've met some virulently homophobic black people who think homosexuality is a "white thing" and against black culture. Well, it may indeed be a cultural thing, or it may be a result of an excess of religion within the general black populace, or it may even be because a whole lot of the black leadership are called the Rev. This or the Rev. That.

I'll tell you one thing, next time I hear someone of African ancestry use the "F" word, I shall defiantly respond with the "N" word and when the inevitable objection comes, I'll say, "You don't like it? Well, shape up! 'Fag' is just as unacceptable a word as 'nigger', and I expect better from you."

Yes, solidarity forever!

[readmoreoften]

8. Homosexuality is SO most certainly not a white thing.

Langston Hughes was gay.
James Baldwin was gay.

Gay African-Americans have contributed a lot to our culture. Homophobia in black American culture doesn't hurt whites as much as it hurts gay GLBT people.

[IntravenousDemilo]

13. That's kind of what I was getting at, you know.

Homophobia is unacceptable from anyone, and it is doubly tragic and mystifying when it comes from a fellow oppressed minority.

[ecstatic]

9. wow...that was offensive... no words... nt

[IntravenousDemilo]

17. I re-read my post in order to detect what you could possibly have found

offensive in it, and I came up dry. Perhaps you might explain it to me, a gay man who has been disappointed countless times over the years with black people who have called me "faggot".

Yes, sometimes the truth does hurt a hell of a lot, but I want to create a new truth in which no one calls anyone names. I choose to do so by fighting fire with fire.

[readmoreoften]

10. The gays aren't the "new blacks" or the "new jews" or anything else.

We're the old queers. We've always been around. And we've been jewish and we've been black and we've been arab and we've been christian, ad infininitum.

[IntravenousDemilo]

21. I meant "Gay is the new black" as it relates to social and civil rights activism.

The big push for equality between blacks and whites began about 50 years ago; there is still a lot of work to be done. But unfortunately, because of the Civil Rights Act, the term "Civil Rights" has become inextricably associated mainly with blacks, when civil rights should really belong to everyone regardless of colour, sex, sexuality, religion/non-religion, etc.

And now gay people are finally getting progressive legislation aimed at making us feel less like second-class citizens -- well, here in Canada, anyway. We are now in vogue, as it were, and that's what I meant by "Gay is the new black".

There is danger in being treated like a fad or the latest fashionable cause, however, because the general population soon tires of fads. That's why there is still work to be done in the field of black/white equality. It's just not sexy enough for "limousine liberals" anymore, what with their short attention spans. We gays have to get as much as we can as fast as we can, before the glitterati begins its next big push for whatever minority is next.

Personally, I think the next battle will be over age discrimination and the constitutionality or otherwise of not allowing people younger than 18 to vote. It's warming up in the bullpen right now.

[readmoreoften]

22. I understand your "the new black" (as in fashion) now. But in this thread

it could be construed as having a double meaning. And don't worry about the glitterati leaving us. We have achieved all that we have achieved without the glitterati, and we will continue to achieve gains when they forget us. In fact, we may even do better outside the limelight.

I think the most important thing is for queers of all stripes to stick together. We need to build unity between GLBT communities. There are so many permutations of who we are: culturally, sexually, gender-wise, racially, and even concerning national heritage.

[IntravenousDemilo]

24. Good, you got it.

One reason we may even do better outside the limelight is that we're not a visible minority. On the other hand, because people tend to believe that superficialities like skin colour are somehow more important than what's in one's heart, the fact that we don't look different has made a lot of the majority believe that our sexuality is just a "lifestyle" (ugh, I hate that word) choice, rather than something as ingrained and unavoidable as race.

While it is important for queers of all stripes to stick together, it is just as important for all minorities -- non-Christians, gays, ethnic minorities, women (OK, I realize they're actually a de facto majority, but not in this context) -- to band together and help one another to fight "The Man". In unity is strength.

I'm pretty much a socialist, but you may have gathered that from my avatar (Tommy Douglas) and when I wrote "Solidarity forever". Nevertheless, there are a lot of socialists who have contempt for gays, which is yet another thing I can't grasp the logic of. And the whole thing with gays being executed in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and many other Islamic countries, because we're supposedly some sort of abomination -- what's up with that, anyway? As long as that's going on, it's kind of difficult for this normally liberal-minded gay man to muster up much sympathy for Muslims. Hatred of gays is something that fundamentalist Muslims and homophobic African-Americans/Canadians have in common with the likes of Fred Phelps and George W Bush. Do they not realize that? Do they really want to be like Dubya and Phelps?

The enemy of my enemy is indeed my friend.

[readmoreoften]

26. Remember, not all GLBT people are invisible. Not by far.

Most gender varient GLBT people are *quite* visable. In fact, my girlfriend has to hide her head under a hoodie because our block (in NYC) has a large West Indian population and many of the men are *very* anti-gay. Last week, some men actually chased her inside our building yelling anti-gay epithets. Many butch dykes and feminine gay men (not to mention transfolks) are absolutely visible.

[IntravenousDemilo]

28. Yes, you're right about that.

And those men in your block are exactly like mid-level schoolyard bullies who can't beat up the big bully, so they pick on someone even smaller. One of my first friends and roommates when I moved to Toronto was a Vietnamese pre-operative transsexual waiting for the operation to make him physically a woman. She had the operation and was very happy with her new life, but she was murdered a few years after that. Sandra's candlelight vigil was very well attended, I'm happy to say. She had many friends, even if at least one person wasn't.

[TahitiNut]

11. "... someone of African ancestry ..."

African-Americans inherit the social and economic penalties imposed upon their ancestors. It's a bigotry that imposes harms that cascade over the generations. The same cannot be said about bigotries based on gender, sexual orientation, or even religion.

That said, there is NO REDEEMING VIRTUE of being a "lesser evil" - evil is evil. Period.

[readmoreoften]

16. I never said the oppressions functioned in the same way.

But, as one gay Iranian doctor used to point out in his writings, when you are gay you are the enemy of your own family. You have no people and no community. You can't learn from survival techniques from your parents. You have no one to go to for help. These oppressions are IMBRICATED. For example, when the Americas were being conquered a great justification was that the native populations engaged in "heathen atrocities". Many of these so-called moral "atrocities" were the indigenous culture's acceptance of gender variant and homosexual peoples within their societies. The Spanish burned gay South American indigenous people in piles.

Manifest destiny was fueled by burning piles of gender variant people. And this history, in no way minimizes the abject horror of African-American history.

[Catherine Vincent]

14. I understand your frustration how some blacks are homophobic....

But you sound very pissed. What will you call a white or a hispanic if they utter the "F" word?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

15. I know racial epithets for whites and hispanics.

Honestly, I always figured most people did.

[IntravenousDemilo]

19. I'm sure there are racial epithets for whites, but as I just posted to

readmoreoften, they just wouldn't have the same effect coming from a white boy.

[IntravenousDemilo]

18. Thank you for your understanding.

I'm not so much pissed off as saddened and disappointed at the hypocrisy and lack of solidarity that I alluded to in my first post.

What will I call a white or Hispanic homophobe? Well, since Hispanics are also an oppressed minority, there are any number of terms that have currency; I'll pick the first one that comes to mind, probably. As for whites, since they're not really oppressed for their whiteness, there aren't a lot of epithets for them... unless you can suggest one. The problem is, I'm also white, and if I used an anti-white racial epithet, it would sound a bit odd and wouldn't have nearly the same weight or pack the same venom. Actually, I'd probably kick whitey in the nuts really hard so he couldn't beget any more bigots.

[readmoreoften]

20. Instead of getting into a war of epithets to prove a point, maybe it'd be better to speak plainly.

For example:

Heterosexual African-American male: "I can't believe that faggot moved into our neighborhood."
You: "Yeah, people like that are a danger to our women and children. Let's form a group and beat him to death. If we do, it'll instill fear in the whole faggot population and they'll stay away from our families."

Or even better:

"You know a lot of groups have suffered at the hands of bigots in America. Let's not become the bigots.

[IntravenousDemilo]

23. How about this, then?

Heterosexual African-American male: "I can't believe that faggot moved into our neighborhood."
Me: "I'm sure you don't like the word "nigger". Try to remember that next time you are tempted to say the word "faggot"." Maybe a little less caustic, perhaps?

I'd never use your first option, in case the person I was talking to were to say, "Hell yes. Let's DO IT!" As you know, there exist individuals who just don't get sarcasm.

BTW, the black people I know here in Toronto call themselves "black", not "African-American", for obvious reasons. This is especially true of the Jamaican Canadians who comprise the majority of black people in my city.

[readmoreoften]

25. Yes, many west indian folks in the US as well identify separately

from African-Americans.

[Karenina]

27. Very true.

And Jesus SHO warn't no nigra. He was tan/Semitic/whitish-brown/etc./ad nauseum :evilgrin:

[Neecy]

31. in defense of the African-American community...

That being said, it would be refreshing if the gay community could get some solidarity from the black community for a change, but I've met some virulently homophobic black people who think homosexuality is a "white thing" and against black culture.

A little history here.

So much of this animosity comes from the allocation of AIDS funding in the early 1990's.

Remember the Ryan White Act? The gay community was, by this time, organized, politically connected, and highly motivated. Much of this money - the bulk of it - went to social services that were easily accessible to upper middle class neighborhoods such as the Castro and West Hollywood. The African American community was also facing crisis but they were almost completely cut out of the funding. I remember a huge and very bitter struggle over a facility that was to be placed in Washington, DC, between the African-American community and the gay community. Guess who won?

Guess who got almost all of the drug trial slots?

Two separate issues needed to be funded for educational purposes: safe sex practices, and the dangers of needle sharing. Guess what got funded?

Please don't talk about how "refreshing" it would be to get some "solidarity" for a change. Memories are long when people are dying. I know these were desparate times - I lost many friends - but there certainly wasn't any "solidarity" on OUR part that I remember. And yes, I was there.

[LeftCoast]

12. You are not alone in feeling this way

Good post! :thumbsup:

Have a good rest. Maybe things will chill out here after the election.

[Bluebear]

30. Kick :)