How will YOU know when it's time to GET OUT OF THE USA?

[upi402]

I keep telling myself that there is still hope. That the '04, and now '06 elections will return democracy.
But I have that sinking intuition that we are past the point of no return.

How will YOU know when it's time to GET OUT OF THE USA? What would it take?
I think this is a creeping authoritarian state. It's definitely an established corporatocracy.
Realizing I'm more liberal than most doesn't help me because my paranoia/cynicism/skepticism has been right all along.

Would you give up a pension too?
Move a child/children?

[Dogmudgeon]

1. After my EEG goes flat

Never surrender.

Never.

--p!

[VTMechEngr]

153. I'm with you.

I'd stay even if I was to be killed. This is my land and home.

[TaleWgnDg]

2. Gotta love your avatar: Justice Thurgood Marshall . . .

one of America's best SCOTUS justices! Indeed. Wear it well, upi402.

[SnoopDog]

3. This November will be the telling point...

If the Repubs magically retain control - well, you/we are warned.

Our lives are worth more than money- take what you can.

Sort of reminds me of the Sound Of Music... The last scene is most telling. That is where they have successfully escaped the Nazis.

To be honest - we can fight and win these bastards as we have honor, ethics, and integrity on our side... We have the Constitution to protect.

[rd_kent]

109. I agree. Novemeber will be the time to decide!

Unless we take back control of our party from the spineless puppets calling themselves OUR representatives and get some conrtol over our destiny in November, then I know it will be time to start packing.
i have not given up hope, yet!!!

[SmokingJacket]

112. I agree -- that's what I'm waiting for.

I've told my husband that if they retain or increase control in November, I want to make plans to leave. ANd for the first time, he agrees.

I wouldn't go anywhere if I didn't have kids. Like immigrants always do, I want to make sure my kids live in a country with a future.

If it was just me I'd go down fighting.

[tlsmith1963]

136. The American People Have Until November

If they keep a Republican majority in congress, then I will know that America is stupid & can't be saved. Sorry to be that cynical, but I have my mental & physical health to think about. I can't fight losing battles anymore. I tried it before, & it just about killed me. So I will probably devote all my time to preparing for a move to Canada. I need to be in a place where (hopefully) my battles with depression & anxiety-attacks won't be as bad. A few years ago, I decided to live after I hit bottom. I didn't decide to live for these neocon freaks & their screwed-up idea of utopia. Sorry, but count me out.

Tammy

[DinahMoeHum]

145. Same thing here. If there's no improvement by then. . .

then I'm off to go traveling by sailboat in the Mediterranean or the South Pacific.

Other places I'd consider: Costa Rica, Trinidad/Tobago, Portugal, Australia, NZ


:shrug:

[gunsaximbo]

4. Let me answer with a question then statement

If it was 1932 and this was Germany and you were a jew (knowing what you know now) would you leave germany?


Now, Being a liberal and an reformed Catholic and someone who questions religions. Shouldn't I be somewhat concerned about this country becoming a religious state run by fascists?

I am concerned but I think it will change. Either that or we're all dead.

[uppityperson]

6. That is a good question.

It will change, the question is how much further will it go first?

[upi402]

8. In the long run we're all dead LOL!

Wasn't that Greenspan?
John Kenneth Galbraith?
Robert Reich?
Twain?
Paula Zahn...???:shrug:

[Extend a Hand]

52. John Maynard Keynes

the english economist.

[upi402]

56. ahhh, so NOT Paula Zahn

:hi:

[Extend a Hand]

57. no, but that made me giggle

:)

[Imagevision]

101. NO WAY! -- get rid of those responsible for screwing the US. bigtime

we got rid of NIXON/AGNEW Bush & Cheney's alter ego's

[SupplyConcerns]

140. They've already admitted to doing worse than Watergate

Bush has proudly admitted to violating the FISA law along with the 4th ammendment, with his domestic wiretapping. Nixon would have been impeached by now. Isn't the lack of a powerful opposition an ominous sign to you?

Just what do we have in mind these days when we talk of "getting rid of" people like the NeoCons?

[FloridaPat]

5. Gore had the election stolen from him in broad daylight.

And NO ONE cared.

[we can do it]

124. Cause It Wasn't on Survivor or Amurkin Idull

[Lost-in-FL]

7. Once we invade Iran...

it won't matter where you are going anyways.

Relax, get you things in order, enjoy the good things in life since you never know.

[Nomen Tuum]

9. I honestly expect the US to break up like the Soviet Union did!

And quicker, too!

[SPKrazy]

135. I would Never Have Thought That, But With Federalist Judges on Courts

It won't be long before states begin seceding, and the Courts back them up in doing so.

JMO

[mmonk]

10. The combination of

using the military here at home to police while arresting people without charge and placing them in new detention centers constructed by KBR.

[upi402]

16. WARNING; this may freak me out again -goes with your post

When federal and state public health officials convince your Governor to declare a “public health” emergency, they want to be able to use the “state militia” to:

*

take control of all roads leading into and out of your cities and state;
*

seize your house, car, telephones, computers, food, fuel, clothing, firearms and alcoholic beverages for their own use (and not be held liable if these actions result in the destruction of your personal property);
*

arrest, imprison and forcibly examine, vaccinate and medicate you and your children without your consent (and not be held liable if these actions result in your death or injury).




http://www.909shot.com/ActionAlerts/what_you_need_to_know.htm

[mmonk]

29. Freaky indeed

[pitohui]

85. well my governor has gonads

say what you like abt blanco when *co tried this shit, * got pushed right back

how many governors are going to be willing to sign themselves over on *co's say so?

you see what good rolling over did in mississippi, even trent lott got nothing except a slab and a lawsuit against state farm insurance -- and he's a freakin senior senator

the governors won't roll over in future, no point to giving up your power for nothing

[samhsarah]

11. I think when it's time you will just know.

It's kind of a personal decision. I have 2 small kids, so for me the time is soon. I can't put them through too much more of this. They need a chance at a happy future. But for you, well, nobody can tell you when, you will just know.

[upi402]

20. That's the thing, I do know -but don't want to listen to that

[samhsarah]

22. i know exactly how you feel. i wish i had a better answer for you.

i wish i could say, stay, it will be ok. but i don't feel that way anymore. and i would be lying.

[driver8]

40. I have two small children, also...I don't know how long I can

wait, either. I am the son of a career Navy man and a veteran myself; I never thought I would see the day where I had to think about leaving the United States.

[samhsarah]

42. my husband's in the navy...

that's one of the reasons we're still here. need to wait until his enlistment is up. it really is so sad to have to think about this.

[driver8]

43. It is scary, isn't it? That we would even think about leaving our

country because of our government and their fascist qualities...

I see things getting much worse before they get better.

[samhsarah]

47. me too.

that's why staying here with 2 young children is becoming less and less of an option for me. and you understand that. It would be one thing if it was just me and my husband, we wouldn't have a reason not to stay and fight. But kids just need to be able to be kids. They never asked for any of this. They deserve better. Not to have to live through fascism or a civil war which could be where this all ends up if things don't change drastically and soon.

[corkhead]

111. The problem is that we need to fight them here so we don't have to fight

them over there, or wherever you or I ended up fleeing to.

[SammyWinstonJack]

12. If I could now, I would get out! I am advising my son to get out now!

He has an online friend in London who has invited him to come and visit! I am encouraging him to go, and stay, if at all possible!

[leveymg]

13. Hopefully, before that pure white light surrounds us

and all those screaming sirens and roaring airplanes go completely silent, forever.O8) :patriot: O8)
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :hi:

[Fredda Weinberg]

14. Do you have somewhere to go?

Sorry for being flip, but my father faced the real thing and found himself in Hitler's labor camps for the duration of the war. He made the comparisons and I've got a destination.

[SnoopDog]

30. Are you at liberty to say where?

[Fredda Weinberg]

34. Sure, but I don't think it's relevant here e/m

[SnoopDog]

38. That makes sense....I guess

[upi402]

35. My friend is from Germany and I just blurted out...

"Why would you leave THERE for HERE?"

And that was last summer. Since then....ugh

[Botany]

15. Never Give Up ..... stay and fight

Look the devil in the eye and spit.



Remember we are the majority .... they retained power by cheating and it will come out.
True patriots:

Love the Country
Care about education
Care about health care
Care about the troops ... and not just for photo ops.
Care about the environment
Care about faith and respect the rights of other to seek their peace and their God in their way.
Care about Seniors
Care about having good jobs here
Care about national security enough that they read the intel when it says a terrorist wants to attack
Care about the things that make you truly rich .... family, friends, home and privacy
Care about this country enough to tell those crooked bastards that their 15 minutes of fame and
shame are just about up and they can go to hell.

[YvonneCa]

141. I'm with you, Botany...

...this is my country, too, and they CAN'T HAVE IT !!!

[mnhtnbb]

17. We've bought property in Panama

and are building a house. Expect it to be finished by spring 2007. So we hope that we won't have to get out before then, because our youngest is in 10th grade. Our 'hope for the best' part of the scenario means using the Panama house for vacation/investment until our son finishes high school.

We actually decided--after the stolen 2004 election--to create a plan that would allow us to escape the US. We bought our lot in Panama last April after looking seriously at both Belize and Panama. We're retirement age, so Canada, New Zealand were out--and we ruled out Ireland, and several Caribbean islands.

Our plan at this point is to sell our house in Chapel Hill, NC (and I love Chapel Hill) after our son graduates high school, rent an apartment here, and split our time between Panama and Chapel Hill. Then we play it by ear depending upon just how totalitarian and fascist this country gets whether we move permanently to Panama when we no longer feel it's safe to be in the US--or we can't abide supporting the changes that the neocons have made to the government.

It's not pleasant to think about--and we don't like the idea of giving up.
But we don't like the idea of living in fear in a fascist country, not when we have an absolutely gorgeous alternative on a tropical island.

[upi402]

24. I have 2 places...

That we just love -Thailand, where retirement days will be spent.
And a place that is practical -Canada, where my dad was born.

Leaving the crummy weather where we live is no problem, but Canadian weather?...well, it's no Chappel Hill or Savannah.

But anywhere is better than police state harassment for being a political liberal. BushCo just keeps getting away with their in-your-face crap. And I have a sick intuition about it.

[Amonester]

159. Canadian weather ain't what it used to be (Global Warming)

I'm in Montreal and the (surprisingly "thin" for this time of the year) snow banks have been melting down today and the forecast is like, there won't be any snow left over here in a few days...

Alright, very unusual for this time of the year. Even looks "scary" when I think about it now...

I never thought we would "lose" our "dear" normal winters in my lifetime.

It seems more and more those will be less and less "freezy" like they used to be...

:sad:

[mmonk]

36. I've been thinking of buying property

in Nova Scotia or Mexico. From there, we can decide what to do. (currently living in Raleigh)

[Extend a Hand]

55. If things don't fall apart

too soon I'll be looking for a small house in NC (I'd love that UNC instate tuition) ;)

But just in case, we're looking at Panama as well. Unfortunately, we won't have our current home in Ohio ready to sell until this summer or fall.

I would appreciate any info you could provide about Panama.

[mnhtnbb]

87. Good place to start for info on Panama

is this link:

http://www.panamainfo.com/en/listing/what_to_do/vacationRetirement/

I also recommend International Living: www.internationalliving.com

and Escape Artists: http://www.escapeartist.com/

We have bought at Red Frog Beach Club www.redfrogbeachclub.com

and are very enthusiastic about this development by a group of Americans.
We were interested in a community--and this one is attracting people from Canada, England, as well as Americans. One advantage to the Caribbean side of Panama is that in 140 year history there have been NO recorded hurricanes.
This is due to the geography because Panama sits south of where most hurricanes develop in the Caribbean.

[DarleenMB]

75. So you think Central America

is safer than here? Okaay.

Actually my question to you is why Canada is "out" because you're retirement age. What's that got to do with anything? My husband just retired and we're planning a trip to Chilliwack to see if it would be a good move for us.

DH has talked a lot about Costa Rica but (a) the money folks are ruining it already and (b) Noriega is making noises again. Tales of kidnappings of US citizens living in Mexico and other parts of Central America are rampant.

At least in Canada they speak the same language.

[pitohui]

91. in panama they speak the same language

At least in Canada they speak the same language.

uh, you were aware that panama was under usa control until quite recently, in the canal zone they speak english just fine, prob. better than your spanish

never heard of any usa citizen being kidnapped in panama other than the darien gap which they should know better anyway

ha ha in costa rica it is a running joke that it's becoming difficult to hear spanish spoken in the popular ex-pat areas

canada is out for retirees unless they have a lot more $$$ to buy their residency than is required by central american nations, including panama

most modern western countries that provide health care are not wide open and welcoming to older people for the obvious reasons of no pot of money is infinite and if it were otherwise the entire usa would retire to canada for medical reasons and they'd be completely swamped

you need to do a lot more research and traveling before you decide on your retirement home, methinks

you may be pleasantly surprised at the options

[mnhtnbb]

95. Canada does not want retirees

adding to the burden of the health care system. I would suggest you contact an immigration lawyer in Canada to describe your situation prior to making a trip. Here's one link: http://www.rsscanadaimmigration.com/?en=google1

Panama is VERY safe: http://www.panapublishing.com/

and a top retirement destination.

http://www.islandtraveltours.com/Panama2005/htm/glossary/safety.htm

Both my husband and I speak Spanish (having lived in CA for many years and I also took it in school) and intend to do some brushing up on our language skills. English is spoken quite widely in tourist destinations.
Due to the presence of Americans related to the operation of the Canal for so many years, Panama also has a much better infrastructure than many other Latin American countries. Panama City is the financial capital of Central America and definitely first world. Yes it has some poor areas, but there are plenty of cities in the US that are reeling from poverty, too.

[pitohui]

131. panama a terrific country

i hope from time to time you will post abt yr experiences

[riderinthestorm]

84. I just applied for Irish citizenship.

My grandmother was Irish and I've just received the last piece of documentation that I needed to prove it (an original of her birth certificate). After I get my citizenship, I'll get Irish citizenship/passports for my kids, hopefully by the end of the year. I plan on going to Ireland over the winter and purchasing property there asap.

My husband and I will stay and fight. I'll send my kids away though if it comes to that. Thank god they are old enough to do this with....

[mnhtnbb]

96. My dentist is doing the same thing!

He's pulling together all the family documentation to get his mother an Irish passport--and then he's eligible. Once he has that, it opens the door to any EU country and he's thinking about Switzerland.

[Art_from_Ark]

166. But Switzerland isn't EU

[rainbow4321]

18. "Georgelandia" video (formerly known as the USA)

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/greater.html

[Lost-in-FL]

19. Georgegrad?

[reality based]

21. I recall that it was the supporters of another King George

who had to leave the USA. After the Revolution, they were forced out with tar and feathers. Many went to Canada where their descendants get to sing "God save the Queen" to their hearts content. The defenders of American rights got to stay. I plan on staying and watching these new royalists depart for... say... The Hague, someday. Lord, may it come quickly!

[Tigress DEM]

62. Yeah, that would be my preference...

but I'm thinking we should have as much going for us as possible and use whatever tools we can - including setting up safe houses in other countries in case they are needed.

This shit could get REALLY serious and although I'm inclined to stay and protest it out, I'd like my grandbaby to be safe if at all possible so nothing I do can be visited upon them.

I mean Cindy gets dragged out for just wearing a T-Shirt. In September at the back fence of the White House, the police were real respectful of her with about 300 other people getting arrested with her and about 500-700 watching.

Of course, it rattled their nerves a bit when we chanted, "The WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING".

[Emillereid]

23. I think about this so much.

I have three kids -- and I really want them to have a good life somewhere? But where to go?

[upi402]

27. me too

I have a young one. The mother doesn't want to see the child much but still may block any move. If it's best I want to know. And have it all organized to present to her.

[mnhtnbb]

31. I recommend these resources

International Living http://www.internationalliving.com/

and Escape Artists http://www.escapeartist.com/

You have to look at your own needs, history, whether you have family that would make you eligible for a passport in another country. It's always easier to get a job overseas if you already work for an international company. They'll do the paperwork and get you a visa.

If you really want to plan to get out--start looking at options now.

[upi402]

33. Thanks for the links. Planning is the plan right now.

[leftchick]

103. do you happen to know....

in regard to Canada if you can land a job there first is it easier to emigrate with the help of the company. Or do you do the immigration work to get there, then get the job? I have been trying to find that on the Canadian links and have had no luck.

[skipos]

25. I am never giving up. nt

[juliana24]

73. Me niether!! Vive' La Resistiance !

[Rocknrule]

106. I agree! Viva La Resistance!

[Oeditpus Rex]

26. Fuck that

Like hell I'm leaving. I want a civil war with the motherfuckers. I want their shit-filled souls the fuck out of my country.

[upi402]

32. I'm a fighter too, I just can't get into it anymore

Everything I try seems to bring logical responses as to how it is impossible.
Everything is wrapped up tight.
DINO's are fucking us and even Dems think they're just fine.
Media is hopeless.
This forum, AAR, Democracy Now - is about it. The entire thing is corrupted and rigged. BushCo is IN YOUR FACE taunting someone to do something, and nobody does. And their prison mentality sees that as permission to screww us even more.

Fight? I don't even know how that would begin to work out. I've been fighting for decades, all I can do. I'm fed up with what WAS my party.

[Tigress DEM]

65. It seems to me it goes in waves, and we buy the repuke propoganda

about our DEMS. I realize they all aren't perfect, but there have been many shining moments and we keep getting back in the fight.

I keep thinking these days we have to say, "Bullshit! Our DEMS may not be everything we want from them, but they are strong in their diversity and each does have strengths and weaknesses that can work for them. I believe in a higher power at work in all this and over the course of history it will all work out if we just keep getting back up."

I try to focus on the issues:
Impeach the War Criminals - NOW
Blast the Media - I'm thinking of finding a strudy soap box & hitting the park
Prosecute all corrupt individuals and entities that are screwing w/our country
Vote Reform
Campaign Finance Reform

Any candidate who doesn't "get" these issues is going to have a hard time getting my vote. I have voted green in the primary just because it was the best candidate, but it was a runoff primary with 2 solid DEMS as well so it was about sending a message, not abandonning my party.

[AntiFascist]

164. Well, if worse came to worse.....

there is a stopgap measure in the Constitution, the 2nd Amendment, which is the right to bear arms. I believe it is also our responsibility to uphold democracy against tyranny. I would make sure we had plenty of police, FBI, military, and members of all other Federal/State/County agencies on our side....I'm just SAYING, if the time ever came. I wouldn't listen to defeatism either: "oh, its useless!".

[Chipper Chat]

63. California could be the starting point for a new country.

Just secede. Oregon, Hawaii, and Washington might follow suit. Those 4 states would hold a lot of liberal exiles from the other 46. Could be called "Lower Canada?" Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[upi402]

66. Yes, The United States of the Left Coast

I'm there, but Schwaxxxeneger has to go.

[ClayZ]

67. Best idea I have heard in 6 years!

Left Blue

[KamaAina]

105. Hawai'i *was* another country, not all that long ago.

We just might beat you to the punch there. Remember the police station in Hawaii Five-O? It is actually 'Iolani Palace, seat of the last two Hawaiian monarchs until the overthrow of 1893, backed by U.S. Marines, and the subsequent annexation in 1898, under questionable circumstances (i.e. no treaty ever approved by the Senate).

http://www.hawaii-nation.org

Not that we have room for a huge number of expats, mind you, but it's the principle of the thing. Besides, we might need replacements for all the repuke retirees who would come running back to Sun City or wherever.

[Chipper Chat]

110. I went to U of H

Learned alot about how badly Queen Liliokalani (sp?) was treated. I guess Bush doesnt hold the patent on discrimination against brown-skinned people!

[yorkiemommie1]

152. U of H here too

How strong are the Dems in Hawaii?

[Chipper Chat]

162. I wasnt very political when I went there.

Too busy scratching my "poison-ivy" rash from picking mangoes (I didnt know!)
I remember Cheney making a sudden trip there last October to attempt to swing the state to the GOP. Cheney is about as out-of-place on King Street as Bush is in Harlem!

[yorkiemommie1]

165. i have an ex classmate in hawaii

who flies to DC a lot to do bus. w/ cheney. calls him a 'fun, casual' guy . ( talk about a koolaid drinker ) and encourages him to befriend the portuguese and filipino population in hawaii so as to win HI for the GOP. cheney probably sneers at this guy behind his back.

i really think hawaii could go red, though.

i wasn't political, but i ran w/a very political crowd. very visible in the antiwar movement there. my parents were ok w/ it but i knew they didn't want my name out there too much.

( sorry about the mangoes! my cousin's allergic also )

[Nimrod2005]

120. great post...How would that work? A military coup? by liberals?

What are you thinking? I like the other person on this thread who suggested starting anew country with California.

[KarenS]

28. Although some days I think about leaving,,,,

We have 5 grown children (2 are college age and are in need of financial support) and 5 wonderful Grandchildren,,,,


We cannot leave them all behind to face this alone.
We have to stay and work change in this government.

[Cleita]

37. When the uber rich start moving abroad, it's a sign.

When the old money starts to spend long vacations in places like Switzerland, or the Riviera, also London and Paris, it means they are trying to keep a place available for flight. It also means that they are moving a lot of their money there.

This is what the old monarchies and aristocracies did when they realized that their regimes were about to collapse. It's why the last century saw a lot of kings in exile all over the place including America. I don't think any of them will be coming here for awhile though unless it's the Saudi's checking up on their new province, the USA.

[Ready4Change]

39. It's MY country.

I've no kids, nor plans to have any. If I did I'd be having serious thoughts about taking them someplace where their youthful years would more resemble what an American childhood should be like. Maybe Australia/New Zealand. I'm concerned that, unless something dramatic happens here soon, like a Republican move to impeach this WH, that todays children will become something similar to Nazi Youth. Perhaps a gentler form, as what is being put in place right now is being placed more gently than Germany in the '30's. But gentle starts can bely the storm to come.

As for me, I'm staying here, come what may.

[Lorien]

41. When you post the same thread and no one says

anything like;

"Stand and fight"!

"Only cowards leave"

"Don't let the door hit you on the ass..."

etc. etc.

[upi402]

44. It happens when I fight for the return of my party to Democrats...

Well, I know I'm no coward. Enough said there. But from studying history, following world events, and life's lessons...
at some point the Americans falling for the Bushit and the DINOshit are not worth leaving anyone orphaned over.

[Fiendish Thingy]

45. I've got about 2 years of fight left in me...

which happens to coincide with my youngest's high school graduation. If nothing changes- the media, the Dems, the corruption, the torture, then I'm out of here. Many have come to the US seeking a better life and were not judged for leaving their homelands; now the time has come where many in the US will leave, also seeking a better life...

as for me, I say: Give me Liberty or give me Canadian permanent residence status...

[mnhtnbb]

99. That's exactly where we are--except we'll take pensionado

status in Panama.

[mikelewis]

46. About 5 seconds after it's too late....

[upi402]

48. The moment of...

"Oh shit"
It's the last words recorded on the black boxes recovered from crashed airplanes too. O/T

[mikelewis]

49. I heard it was...

"Mission Accomplished"

[slackmaster]

50. The problem I have with this discussion is I don't know where I'd go

Maybe the deep interior of Mexico.

[Mythsaje]

51. I'm more or less stuck...

I owe a sizable amount of back child support (the initial judgement GREATLY over-estimated my income and I wasn't in any position to do anything about it at the time) and, for that, I can be denied a passport.

Ah, well...

[upi402]

54. They're trying to require passports to Canada now I hear

I don't watch TV news anymore, but it made sense -if they invade another country they'll need a draft. They don't want draft dodgers. We can still go back and forth without a passport for now.

http://gocanada.about.com/cs/bordercrossing/a/passportnow.htm
The US Department of Homeland security has decided that every person crossing the border from Canada (including US tourists returning home) will need to provide biometric identification documents starting as early as October 2004, and it is most likely that the Canadian government will insist on the same from US citizens entering Canada. There is no word of changing anything for Mexican visitors.



http://www.dadsrights.org/articles/child_support.shtml
Did they impute your income?

[noonwitch]

83. I don't think that's going to fly

The passport would be require upon returning to the US. The canadians aren't going to require it.

The teamsters are pretty opposed to it, as are truckers. It would create a lot of problems for them.

[pitohui]

88. it will fly just fine

the teamster or trucker who doesn't already have a passport and who is crossing usa borders should be investigated thoroughly

if you don't want to know who is crossing your border in a big rig, then good on you, canada, i guess you'll have to learn the hard way

it is not unreasonable to ask someone who is driving 80,000 pounds of cargo across an internat'l border to provide a passport to prove he's who he says he is

some issues go beyond conservative and liberal and fall under the category of captain obvious

[Extend a Hand]

53. I hope I'll recognize it

We aren't in a position to leave yet-- and I haven't completely given up yet.
A draft would do it immediately. I'd get my kids out.

I'm trying to get prepared now. I'm researching immigration policies and possible locations. Getting our house ready to sell. Planning on down-sizing-- to be more energy efficient if things do work out and something that won't tie up so much of our money if things don't work out.

If we (dems) don't take back congress and the whitehouse in the 2006/2008 elections
I'm hoping we'll be able to purchase a sailboat and possibly a small home in another country.

[satya]

58. Where in the world could you go to get away from the neocons?

Their goal is to dominate the entire planet (oh yeah, and outer space too, according to the PNAC manifesto).

And if they're not trying to occupy another country, we all still have to breathe the air and drink the water contaminated by this administration's policies.

We started looking at Canada last year, but how long before * wants their oil sands? Between NAFTA, CAFTA and the WTO they've screwed the whole world. I don't think Americans are going to be very welcome anywhere.

[pitohui]

94. yes la la la i'm not listening

people who think they can run and hide are being completely unrealistic

if they want to relocate for positive reasons, to help the career, to get better health care, to retire at a price they can't afford in usa, i understand that

but it's damn silly to say they're gonna cut and run because the usa is an imperialistic power, being the citizen of an imperialist power is not going to be any more fun behind barbed wire in a foreign country where you are vulnerable to being drained of every penny and then deported back to your original destination anyway

and don't say it can't happen, look hard at what really happens to stateless persons and how they are treated

[Tigress DEM]

59. I was wondering about political asylum in Canada last night.

Trying to decide if it would work to move my son, his wife and my grandson up there now so I would have a place to run to if they steal 2006 and lock down the country.

I could feel better about being more politically active if I knew they were safe.

[pitohui]

133. you're not gonna get political asylum in canada

if you're older they know perfectly well you're there for the medical benefits (even if they're wrong in yr case this will be the assumption)

but you say grandson, pretty much all i need to know, you are going to be viewed as an economic/medical refugee -- status denied

[Tigress DEM]

161. I am a young grandmother FYI.

And I don't know what true political asylum really is, but I'm sure I would have enough to offer Canada if I went up there to live without having to get into them taking care of me.

I called it political asylum because if I ever left the US that is how I would feel about it. I am working on my Spanish for IT Support and I have a little French as well and many years in front of me before I'd be eligible for retirement.

[RoyGBiv]

60. I'm tempted ...

I'm tempted to say, I know it's time when people on a liberal message board start trashing a peace protester for wearing improper clothing.

But, truly, there's no place that's safe. I'd rather stay here and fight for my country and my family and my friends. A line has been drawn in the sand, and I intend to step over it.

[balzac]

61. The country survived the Civil War

And it survived treason from Nazi-supporting Americans during WWII. We'll knock these bullies down. This is really round two of the culture war that erupted during Vietnam. Our victory over them was neither decisive nor complete. Much like the unfinished work left after the Civil War.

[SupplyConcerns]

64. It's already time

But when I could realistically leave (and live w/myself) would have to be not in a year when I graduate, but in two years, when my girlfriend has left college, too.

[Individualist]

102. Correct

Unfortunately, I can't leave and dread to see the horrors that will unfold now that we no longer have a government of checks and balances.

[BooScout]

68. November 2004...

George won...we made plans to move. Now in the UK where hubby is from and loving it.

I didn't give up my pension either...it will hopefully still be there for me when I reach retirement age.

[Cooley Hurd]

69. When I try to log onto DU and this pops up:

That'll be it for me...:scared:

[leftofthedial]

70. when they elect nixon twice

[Binka]

71. I'm Gone And I Live In Sicily

I write and am a professional horse player so I can live anywhere. I miss my grown children in the States but after Bush stole 2000 I just could not stay. Here is lovely Mt Etna Europe's largest active volcano!



I home school Peyton she is four years old. I will not let the Nazis get their hands on her. NEVER!

[leftchick]

72. my gut instinct tells me now is the time

I have two young boys and they are my primary concern. I am researching daily a way for us to relocate. I hope to within the next two years. I wish we had started 3 years ago when that first gut instinct hit me.

[NMDemDist2]

74. we're in for the long haul but....

yesterday my DH said if we had children we'da been gone in 2002

[mattclearing]

76. I've known for two years.

I think it was the Patriot Act that did it for me, and the way the Iraq War started. The shift in the tone of the media was the icing on the cake though.

My visa is secured, and my home is on the market. I'll continue to be active and vote absentee, but I'm not sticking around for the ugliness to come. Sorry.

[European Socialist]

77. It depends on the NSA spying outcome--If Congress wimps out....

and there is no Chimpy smackdown--take off to the great white north.

[G_j]

104. is there any doubt?

I fear that will be just another bad joke on anyone hoping for justice

[leftchick]

128. yep, another nail in democracy's coffin

I am not even thinking about justice in this case or any of the other hundreds of crimes they have comitted.

[Atman]

78. When they no longer let you go.

Then it will be just like East Berlin.

[petgoat]

79. I said I was going to go to Canada if Kerry lost

I lost respect for Americans when they re-elected Nixon.

When they elected Mr. CIA poppy Bush after Contragate I lost more. And I figured that if they
elected W in 2004 that America and I just had irreconcilable differences.

But then I learned about the crooked voting machines and the media suppression, and so came to doubt that the American people really want Bush. I learned about the plans of the US Space Command to
weaponize space with Death Rays From the Sky (1) and about PNAC's plan for global domination, and I figured there was no place on the planet I could escape to. I learned that Canada's oil sands, if a
practical means of extraction can be developed, are the second largest oil reserve on the planet, and
I figured that if I went to Canada in 2005 I might wind up defending it from US invasion in 2015.



1. http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php

[davidlynch]

80. When Mike Malloy Stops Broadcasting on Air America For Any Reason n/t

[More Than A Feeling]

81. I will have to choose whether to stay or go when they shut down DU.

At that point, if I fight, I will need to stay, for better communication. To go would mean losing touch with the situation on the ground, but would be much safer.

[SpecialK]

82. Planning for 3 years from now

If we don't win in 06 and 08, we'll move back to Germany. My husband is German and I used to live & work there, so it would be fairly 'easy', as far as international moves go. I wouldn't mind having that 5 weeks vacation a year again. :-)

I also have friends that are planning on leaving in 2-3 years. They just got back from Switzerland to see about moving their money to Europe in the near future. There are people out there that are really taking this seriously. It's just weird - who would have thought?

[zgates]

86. never

I won't have kids if I'm afraid of the world that they'll grow up in, but I'll never leave America unless something forces me to. I think cutting and running would just leave the nation to get even worse, and given the power it has, that means the odds of you being able to get away from America and stay away safely are slim to none.

[Eurobabe]

89. It's already time. I leave in the summer

bound for Germany again, hubby and I will give it another try.

[CJCRANE]

90. If you wake up one day

and all the maps say "United Homeland of Patriotica"...

Then it's probably too late.

[laruemtt]

92. the minute the 2004 election

was stolen - again - i knew the u.s. had jumped the shark and it was time to plan to get out.

[Marie26]

93. Honestly, if the US falls,

the rest of the world won't be too safe either.

[lectrobyte]

108. Why? I could see this country going the way of the USSR, why

would it be any more dangerous than that?

[Marie26]

113. There'd be nothing to stop it

Well, even when the USSR existed, the US was there as a balancing superpower for democracy. The Cold War, for example, kept the USSR from expanding much further & eventually helped lead to the USSR's downfall. But now we're the only superpower. If the USA becomes a totalitarian regime, there's no equal power to fight it. Our military is bigger than most other nations combined. This is why we can now violate international law at will w/o many repurcussions (what, really, is the UN going to do?) So if the US decides to, for example, oppress dissidents, the world can't really do more than protest. If the US decides to build an empire, Nazi-Germany style, there aren't many nations in the world that could sucessfully fight us. If the necon dream of an "American Empire" occurs, we would be almost impossible to stop. Unless other countries allied together, which would spark a world war. And the US has tons of nuclear weapons as well - scary enough in a democracy, but in a dictatorship, there's virtually no check on their use. It's just not a pretty picture, no matter what. That's why the rest of the world is so scared of us right now. If the US goes down, we're kind of taking the world with us.

[lectrobyte]

126. Thanks.

[upi402]

143. * is a sick dry-drunk and a dictatorship looks good to that sociopath

The USA wont "go down" it will turn formally authoritarian and repress dissent more than it does. Folks will be intimidated. The US would only use te new bases in Iraq and the old ones in Qatar, Saudi Arabia etc to control energy -the crack of the modern biped.

[Nimrod2005]

119. Problem is falling economically, not wars stuff...We have fallen

Economically, but not too many epople have noticed yet!

[Marie26]

121. Not too many of us understand!

Most people have a vague sense that something's wrong w/our economy, but hardly anyone really understands exactly how or why the US economy is falling behind. I don't, really. Something about China holding our debt, Iranian oil bourses, outsourcing. It's confusing & not as obvious as the war stuff, but I agree that it's at least as big of a problem.

[Nimrod2005]

125. Think of it this way:

If you kept borrowing and borrowing to live, one day the bank comes and gets your car, another day your sofa, then your jewelry, then your house!!!

The only reason our economy have not blown up is because we are the US. But for how long? will the world trust that we will make a comeback? A comeback is not easy now when you produce nothing.

[Beelzebud]

97. Leaving is for quitters, and those without the spine to FIGHT.

[SupplyConcerns]

129. Would you have managed to stop the Nazis?

Or other fascist regimes. I think that sometimes one has to simply get out of harms way, and regroup, in order to do the most good (it's certainly the way to do the most good for one's close family).

[tlsmith1963]

138. You Bet

Sometimes, it's best to leave. I would do it just for my sanity. Also, I'm tired of being depressed. I'm tired of having no hope.

Tammy

[Beelzebud]

142. I sure as hell am going to try.

[porphyrian]

98. I'm not leaving, they are.

"From Hell's heart, I stab at thee. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee."
- Khan Noonian Singh

[Imagevision]

100. Why should we leave?? dump those in charge - they're the minority

we got rid of Nixon/Agnew -- we can send the Bush cabal into early retirement!

[upi402]

144. I so wish it was like the 70's again

I try all the time to think of, and work for, solutions to their power consolidation. But they just scoop more money and power up.

[eggman67]

107. When they put me 6 feet under it. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

114. When I win the lottery....

I'm too old to start over & too young to retire. No, I would NOT give up my pension--such as it is.

Don't have children--but they would be a consideration. Some destinations mentioned would be OK for retirement but might not offer much to young people.

If you really want to get out of the USA--make some practical plans. What languages can you speak? Do you have family/friends elsewhere? Would you meet immigration requirements? Have you spent considerable time in your chosen country? Authoritarianism is not limited to the USA. Nor are racism & xenophobia.

[area51]

115. when is it time?

As a few other posters have said, it's already time.

[WildEyedLiberal]

116. Oh for Christ's sake, more defeatism

How the fuck is this different than Repukes telling me to "love it or leave it?" Same result achieved. We don't put up with that shit on DU and I don't see why we put up with THIS shit. I mean, if it quacks like a duck...

Why are you reassuring everyone that you're "more liberal than most?"

[upi402]

146. Maybe try re-reading when you're in a different frame of mind

...like I was a buddy asking for your opinion on the options facing us.

Accepting the fact that 'too few Americans want our country back badly enough to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT', is a trait of the fact-based community.

Conversely, Rethuglicans have unexamined patriotism. "Love it or leave it" crap.

That's a distinct difference to my mind.


A previous poster used the phrase, "Cut and run" regarding leaving. Of course, the corporate TV news infiltrates our thinking in unseen yet thorough ways.

[Catchawave]

117. Sorry, I ain't leaving ....

...just trying to work smarter to save our (generic) whiney asses, not harder, like MOVING :}

But, if I do leave the country, I'll move to Miami Beach !

[Vinca]

118. The 2006 election will probably be an indication for us whether

we should stay or go. If Democrats do not win a majority in either house, we're going to be doing serious shopping for real estate in Canada. We almost bought something last summer, but decided to hold off since we would rather stay here. That said, you have no idea how happy I am my husband was born in Canada.

[mdmc]

122. pension?

Never leave the USA!

[we can do it]

123. Good Question - I Have Started Looking At Other Possibilities

My pension should go with me - til they figure out a way to steal that, too. BTW - a little paranoia can be a good thing.

[Skidmore]

127. When none of your fellow citizens can find fault with the course

of events or have a problem with blatant injustices in front of them. We still have outrage and people willing to fight though.

[earth mom]

130. When? Wish I knew! It's a question I've thought about for a while now.

Honestly, I'd love to leave NOW-yesterday in fact-but my husband needs to work 7 more years at his job to get his pension. Even though we don't know one way or another if that pension will even exist when he's at retirement age! At this point, it's a waiting game for us.

I am glad to see that others have made their plans and are getting out-Good Luck to you all!

Though I gotta admit it makes me feel a bit panicky and also a bit envious....!

[toddaa]

132. When the ammo runs out

;)

[SupplyConcerns]

139. Easy to say...

But don't you have a sense of how effortlessly you could be exterminated? As Jack Abramhoff said, "it's not our job to seek peaceful coexistence with the left. Our job is to remove them from power permanently", or Grover Norquist, in 2004: "the Democratic party is doomed forever". The metaphor of the fight doesn't apply so well as the metaphor of extermination. I'm basing this on the immense power imbalance between us on the boards here vs. them in Washington, and of couse their own damn rhetoric!

[NNadir]

134. I am trying to get out.

[The Governor]

137. When people from everywhere else stop coming here.

[upi402]

147. I fought everyday for decades, I'm selling my house this spring

I think interest rates will still support the RE market for several months, though the OMBC hikes them with every meeting it seems.

I love my child with all my heart. That same heart has been broken a thousand times by my "easy to fool" countrymen. My child deserves human dignity, personal freedom, and civil rights. Those are obviously nearly invisible in this country now.

Defending my child's welfare would not even elicit a second thought. But what are we really going to do in an authoritarian state? Revolt? Resist? Whole nations don't stand a chance.

I've traveled to foreign countries for decades and maybe that has made leaving a sensible option to me. Seeing other societies must help that. W is no traveler, remember. If a clear majority seriously had demanded change in 2004 I would stay, even though * stole Ohio. But Americans failed to turn out in droves against the BushCo. Why fight against what the citizenry tacitly approves of? Not me.

I have no guilt over this thinking. I've done plenty and accept the decision of the people as a whole to take a seat and hope it will work out... That someone will do something. It's just not realistic.

I'll sell the house I've owned for decades and be more liquid. I'll be able to leave immediately if thing get hairy in 2006. If things stay the same, I can continue to plan while keeping a finger in the air -with the help and advice of the DU community.

[mnhtnbb]

148. Did you just make that decision?

Or had you already made that decision when you started this thread?
How old is your child?

[upi402]

151. It's been building

30 years of an Alito SCOTUS and the blind loyalty by many liberals to corporatist DINO's turned it for me.
It's hard, I've owned it for 25 years. But should the time come that I need to take my gradeschooler to a free country, I will be financially able to.

Thanks for asking! Have you had any revalations in that regard?

[mnhtnbb]

155. My husband was filling out the forms today

to begin our application for pensionado status in Panama. We just keep hoping that we can last until our 10th grader graduates high school in June 2008--and hope that our plan to sell our house that spring isn't too late.

http://www.panamainfo.com/en/article/retire_in_panama/85

Benefits for Foreign Retirees

The government of Panama has the best incentive program in the world for foreign retirees.

Some of the benefits are:

Importation of all your personal and household goods free of taxes.

Importation of a car free of taxes.

Right to import a car every two years free of taxes

All foreigners ( not just retirees) who purchase a home of more than $200,000 have the right to a residency visa.

The following benefits are for all retirees- both Foreign residents and Panamanian:

50% off closing costs for home loans.

25% off both international and domestic airline tickets.

50% off hotel accomodations Monday-Thursday

10% off prescription medicines ( which are inexpensive to begin with)

15% off dental and eye exams.

30% off bus, boat and train fares.

25% Restaurants

15% Fast Food Restaurants

20% Doctor visits and Surgery

50% off entertainment including movies, concerts, theater everyday. ( This means for example, a movie ticket will cost you $2. And Panama movie houses receive American movies about the same time they come out in the States.)

In Panama all banks (mandated by law) have special express lines for Retirees.

And don’t forget, you can hire a full time maid for less than $200 a month. That is probably the most helpful “retiree benefit”.

No doubt about it- Panama is the most Retiree-Friendly country in the world.

[upi402]

156. WOW! Is there a chance it would all be rescinded?

Say if * invaded?

[mnhtnbb]

157. We have to hope he'll be too busy invading countries with oil

on the other side of the world. I know, not funny.

It did make me nervous when Bush made a stop in Panama after his Summit trip to South America last fall. Turns out the Panamanians are looking for money to modernize the Canal. According to my Panama City taxi driver on the way to airport last November, Bush promised them $50 million! Never heard a peep about that in the US press.

[berni_mccoy]

149. It's too late to get out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x310299

[zonmoy]

150. some of us would have a difficult time leaving even if we wanted to

particularly people on disability. although if the cabal got rid of Supplemental Security income I would have to find someplace that would be willing to take a cognitively disabled person as would wll the rest of the disabled people in our country.

[upi402]

154. wow, what could be done? van caravans?

have you had ideas about that?

[zonmoy]

158. dont know

most disabled people would have to become puppets of what would undoubtedly fundy churches which would be a bad thing considering I and undoubtedly many other disabled people are atheists or have other minority religious beliefs.

[upi402]

160. oh my god

shit.
need to think about this one.
ugh

[kath]

163. This question haunts me, upi.

How DO you know when it's time???
Lots of warning signs are there, and they've been coming with increasing frequency over the last month or so.

:scared: :scared: