Fine, leave the US if you want...

[x-g.o.p.er]

I, for one, will NEVER leave. This is MY home, this is MY country...this is MY fight.

For the defeatists, pessimists, and hand-wringers who are thinking of going elsewhere to ride the storm out....leave. Get the hell out. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way.

I don't want your negative energy dragging me down while I fight for what I love and believe in. I will stand, dig in harder than an Alabama tick, and do whatever is necessary to make sure that this grand Republic, this once great beacon of hope for the downtrodden and oppressed, will be that way again.

I will fight at the national level, I will fight at the ballot box, I will fight at the grass roots level.

I will NEVER surrender.

Line forms behind me...

[0007]

1. Hooray for x-g.o.p.er. I'm with you every step and breath of the

way. I'm Standing next to ya big guy/woman.

[MercutioATC]

2. My plans to leave predate this BS.

In ten years, two months, and 26 days, I'm going to Costa Rica. That's been the plan for years.

The recent facist turn the country seems to have taken makes the idea a lot more attractive, I'll admit.

[rambler1277]

38. That's too bad ...

...most of the expats I met in Costa Rica were degenerates. It's hard to express how disappointed I was with the Americans I met down there. Don't get me started.

[MercutioATC]

74. That's be a good thing then, right? To have a non-degenerate move there?

...assuming I'm not a degenerate, that is...

:)

[Quixote1818]

3. They will have to pry my cold dead hands from the Constitution nt

[x-g.o.p.er]

11. Yes!!

That's the fighting spirit!!

[Katherine Brengle]

45. amen, quixote! this country is ours and we have every right to want to...

change it for the better.

However, we also have the right to leave if we don't like it.

That's what it is to live in a free country. (For now.)

[Pirate Smile]

4. I'll fight with you. I'll never leave either.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

6. The neocons get rather aroused when they see the word

"reconstituted" on a can of xyz food stuffs.....

http://www.rexfood.com/rex/site.nsf
Rextrusion is the patented technology
whereby reconstitution and extrusion
combine into a single process. This
makes possible the manufacture of
a great variety of reconstituted food
products using continuous production
line machinery.

[lonestarnot]

5. x-g.o.p.er give me liberty or give me death...never surrender!

damn the torpedos full speed ahead!

[mattclearing]

28. There's liberty elsewhere.

:)

[Katherine Brengle]

46. there can be liberty here--the founders fought for it and we can too. n/t

[mattclearing]

47. See my post 31. n/t

[SmokingJacket]

7. Do you have kids?

Because I'd be right behind you if I didn't. If it was just me, I'd die fighting with no regrets.

But right now I'm panicking -- will I be able to afford to send my boys to college in a few years? If not, will they have a decent life here? Will they get insurance if they get sick? (They're under-insured now, incidentally -- to my great shame as a mother.)

Will they be drafted for the "Long War" in their teens?

Right now I'm not going anywhere. But I'm keeping the option open if things get worse --

[x-g.o.p.er]

9. Yes...

And I would rather my children remeber me as someone who fought for what he believed in than a coward who would cut and run when things got tough.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zone]

18. Kinda what I was thinking

From the beginning of this thread...

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

[Skelington]

26. Typical,

Anytime anybody expresses patriotism, without including that the US has 60 million idiots, that we are immoral, corrupt useless or the more popular opnion now ....that we are fucking nazis, somebody HAS to call them names.

I agree with xgoper, I will never leave! Six years ago nobody would have called us, nazis, loosers, idiots, liars, cheats or any of the other vile things being said about the US. At some point, simply compalining and pointing fingers, and calling PEOPLE ON THE SAME TEAM names has to stop. The US is the greatest country the planet has ever known, six years of bush does not change that, and after the bushes are gone we will be on top again. Six years of bush does not define me, or my country, I'm sick of people using the past 6 years to label people, and the history of the US. look past your nose, and you will see that the US is the greatest country in the world, or close your eyes and keep hating bush, close yourself off... and in 08 when another republican wins you can blame yourself.

Take a little "freeper hate", and turn it into American Pride, there is no need to call people names. Being full of pride, enthusiasm, and hope makes us Americans. Can you explain why, you would take the time to write out a personal insult to xgoper? I don't believe your intention was anything more than an opportunity to look down from your pedistal and point a finger. Throw away the vinegar, and try honey, you might be surprised what you catch.

[tlsmith1963]

27. I Was *Deleted*?!!

Wow, first time that has happened. But let me explain why I had a problem with X-GOP. He was saying that people who wanted to leave the US were cowards, & it reminded me of the Freeper "If you don't like it here, then leave!" crowd. So I was a bit annoyed that a person on our side was sounding like that. I was very offended when Freepers started taunting us & saying that we should leave. And I was still in a bad mood from that stupid SOTU speech, too.

Tammy

[mattclearing]

30. Using the old 'cut and run' language.

Real persuasive with this crowd, as the clowns at Fox News will attest. :eyes:

[SmokingJacket]

44. I don't give a shit how I'm remembered.

I want them to have the best lives possible.

[Nite Owl]

10. I know how you feel

if it was just me I wouldn't have a thought of Canada or somewhere else but I don't want my sons drafted for his perpetual wars.

[akwapez]

50. My son is the reason I stay.

If we leave, they win. Simple as that. We MUST stay and fight. Leaving the US does not put you out of reach of the effects of Bush Co.
You may be able to find more personal freedom. But if you (all of you talking of leaving) leave, then our numbers drop. Do you thing leaving will protect your kids from the effects of global warming as the problem increases with noone to stand up against those who cause the problem? Are your kids protected from the nuclear fallout that spreads the globe because noone was here to speak up and tell the fascists that they are wrong?
The temptation to escape may be strong, but it is NOT the answer. We need your help. Please stay and fight.

viva la revolution!!

[tlsmith1963]

8. I Have to Think About My Mental Health...

...which is why I may leave. But then, people never take depression seriously. "Just snap out of it!" they say. Easy for them to say when they have never dealt with it.

Tammy

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Unfortunately, I can't afford to emigrate to Canada or NZ or the UK

or, any number of other places I'd like to live.

"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools." - Schopenhauer

[raccoon]

34. Me either. And I'm too old to be able to work there. nt

[Lost-in-FL]

14. I am not running away!! I am staying!!

I won't have kids though. Who's going to raise kids in times like this? But even if I have kids I'll

rather teach them to fight for their country! Think about it... France would be speaking German today if

it wasn't for the Resistance during WWII. The Russians fought hard, they got slaughtered and they still are!!! We can

do the same!!! We need to stop this pessimism!!

[bucklebone]

15. Why Leave???

This is the greatest country in the history of the world. Why would you want to leave it?? Where would you go??

We have the best jobs, the best arts, the most livliest cities, the greatest opportunities.

We aren't perfect, but we are pretty damn good.

[newyawker99]

20. Hi bucklebone!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bucklebone]

22. Thanks, It's good to be here.

[Just Me]

16. I acknowledge your courage and commitment.

:patriot:

As for me and my life, I WILL be leaving, to save my son, the minute the BushCO/neoconster regime involves another M.E. country into their global imperialistic crap. That is my sign to go. But, I'll be back when I know my son is safe. I'll be back to take a non-violent stand against such tyranny.

You know your limits and exercise your judgment for your life. I do, too. :hug:

[bucklebone]

17. Where will you go??

Sounds like a crummy lesson to teach your kid. And maybe a tad bit over-reactionary. Dont' worry. there won't be a draft. Just stay.

You'll be safer here.

[Just Me]

19. I do what's best for my kid.

I trust my judgment more than I trust yours.

That's just the way it is. Nothing personal, of course.

[bucklebone]

23. You are your child's everything.

There is no question that the parent is the key to any child's success. It's refreshing to hear someone so concerned about the future of their child.

[KitchenWitch]

21. I am right behind you!

:hi:

[Cults4Bush]

24. ah yes but will you ever fight with firearm?

will you ever shoot to kill your neighbor as they come to lynchmob your gay pagan child that works at an abortion clinic?

Or would you rather get your child the fuck out of the country before some anal rape and torture in the name of god and bushco?

There is no one way to go about this and to cast such aspersions to those who are truly frightened does nothing but push them farther away which is apparently what you were seeking to do.
I am asking my friends who feel like leaving to stay, to fight it out just a little bit longer... to go ahead and make an escape hatch but keep it ready for the last possible moment. there is nothing wrong with wanting to get the fuck out. Just as your reaction is to fight tooth and nail till you and your loved ones are dead some peoples natural reaction is to grab their loved ones and run for cover. Neither one is more right than the other, I wish you and the others who act like this would consider that fact.

[Skelington]

29. Christ, the America you describe sounds pretty awful,

bush or no bush, I love America !!!!!!!

[Cults4Bush]

32. good for you, so do I but not all of it and not with a blind faith

... take a look at what our religious extremists have been saying. Then take a look at which ones have bushcos ear. Then take a look at the voting system and how very little has been done to fix it. Then take a look at our foreign relations and how we have been waging pre-emptive war and the warcrimes and illegalities tied there in. Then take a very close look at the environment.... tell you what, the America I described exists and if you are gay, anti-war, not a Christian or Jew, or an activist taking stands against this government they have plans for you and yours, a lot of those plans have the plausible deniability of just letting the jackboots do the dirty work for them.

What my point is is that some people should be afraid they'd be fools not to be. If things dont change in a hurry the scenes and sits I described in my first post will come to pass.

[Skelington]

35. I just don't believe,

that the greatest nation in the world is as you describe. I did not believe Reagan, or bush #1 would bring us down, and I don't believe this bush will. I see no honor nor reality in trying to imagine and describe the absolute worst case possible, simply to prepare for the worst case. it's easy to look for the worst, hard to work for the best, but America will recover from bush. And nobody's gay pagan son working at an abortion clinic, who gets analy raped by bushco is going to change that. No matter who syas so, history is on my side.

I will not give up and leave because of 6 years of bush, and anybody who is willing to give up, really should leave I guess. I wish them less anal rapes, and the heaven they look for elsewhere, but there is no place like the USA. I'm sick of hearing an inflated description of how horrible we are, as some sort of weird contest to see who can be most descriptive at the "horrors of the USA".

Just my 2 cents, but a positive progressive, or a hopefull democrat is a rare breed these days. "take the fight to them" means nothing if its just an opourtunity to describe how bad things "could" get. the history of the US is great, and the future is GREATER!

Peace.

[Cults4Bush]

37. Not to imagine possibilities is to open yourself up to the brutalities of

fate.

I honestly think you need to look at our history a bit more closely, be that as it may and despite my hyperbole (truly though hate crimes are on the rise and none of the orgs behind such things get an even awkward glance by Law Enofrcement agencies beyond a local level)... bad times we are indeed in for. America is far and away not the worst country in the world. It is the most powerful and that does not make it the greatest, not by a longshot. Plenty of other countires out there have done great things as much as we have to sit there and get on the were number 1 train with such blinders as you have means the situations I have outlined for you dont matter.

I like you didnt think Reagan or poppy bush was the end of our country but if you dont think the rules have changed you haven't been paying attention. Add it up, all the scandals, loss of civil liberties, little loyal opposition, rigged elections (like we haven't seen in a hundred years), our loss of standing in the face of the world, the out and out hatred for Liberals, Gays, non- Judeo Christians, abortion providers on and on.. add it up and maybe your rose color glasses will become a little more clear.

Im sure you think everything will be fine once Dems get elected... I have no such faith.

You completely misconstrued my intentions with this "Just my 2 cents, but a positive progressive, or a hopefull democrat is a rare breed these days. "take the fight to them" means nothing if its just an opourtunity to describe how bad things "could" get. the history of the US is great, and the future is GREATER!". First off there was no need to yell at the end there, second of all this almost comes off as bushs 2nd guessing is not a strategy ( I am not implying you are a freepy type with that comment just trying to point out the similarity), thirdly my point was that some people have real reasons to fear for being what they are, because there are more and more psychos out there who believe the gov is on their side regarding their hatred of those that are not like them, and they may be right in many regards. My argument with you is that saying these people who are violently hated by their opposites and who are seeking safer ground have very real reasons to feel that way if they do, calling them cowards/traitors by implication is a sorry assed thing to do and just because you want to thump your chest in a patriotic nocturnal emmision is kinda fucked up. I know you dont see it this way and your lack of compassion and understanding, your lack of empathy is almost understandble when one takes into regard your previous statements.

Im a fighter and Im staying for as long as I can but I would not be so full of ego and pride as to insist that those that aren't where Im at are how you have so vehemently implied throughout this thread.... that would be un- American in my view.

FWIW I did time in the Army, nearly half of my immediate family is active duty, so please dont call into account my patriotism by implication or otherwise.

...and finally other than the areas of military, consumption of resources and product, and many sports (oh and our road system is pretty awesome as well), can you tell me where and what fields America is the "greatest" in these days?... nowhere in education, freedom of the press, arts and entertainment are we number one. Our foreign policy is absolutely detested the world over so it cant be that. Our donations actually fall below the line when it comes to natural disasters when population to income ratio is taken into account regarding other countries. We have done irreparable damage to the environment along with large chunks of the rest of the world but unlike most of the rest of the world we refuse to do much about it. If we are so great why does Katrina still figure so heavily on so many, I mean we definitely werent number one when it came to a disaster and the rest of the world noticed that big time.

Blind faith that its going to be ok with absolutely zero regard for those who are frightened out of their wits and disagree is actually not so hard to find in America these days at all.

Peace right back to you.

[Skelington]

43. I respect your service, as I expect you to respect mine,

Spewing out garbage, and fear inspired fantasy like what I read in your post #24, doesn't make me want to "thump my chest", it makes me weep for the hopelessness you must feel.

And no, I don't think all will be well once Dems gain power, there is a long road back that will not be traveled by one election. However, I am familar with people who refuse to see and/or look for anything positive. They are very articulate in describing doom, dismay, defeat and escape. I believe you posted to encite the reaction you are getting from me, and I hope you found what you wanted.

I'm glad you posted to me, the things you and I have done give us the right to have this exchange. At some point, I hope you regain the desire to be a part of the country, rather than use your considerable imagination to try and scare others. Both you and I chose to serve, I chose to serve at a time that the choice was not necessarily "free" to everybody. I will never hold me tounge, when faced with the BS you started this with in post #24, I log on here every once in a while, and I can always be assured of someone like you joining a thread you disagree with, only to spread your fears in as rich a color as possible.

You are obviously educated, judging from your writing, but if you are asking me to give you "proof" of americas graetness, I would say you still have some learning to do. My views might just be different because I've seen enough negative, I've lived enough doom that I just don't have it in me to argue WHY the US is great, you believe it or you don't.

Ban me now if this hurts to much.

Good Luck in life.
Semper Fi

[Cults4Bush]

56. You missed my point over and over again, and purposefully.

Here it is last time, implying that people who are scared shitless because of what they are and the threats they now face ( I know you have stated that they don't ahve any threats and there is nothing really negative here, but you are not them and have no will of empathy or compassion towards them which is not progressive in the slightest btw since you made comment on positive progressives earlier), calling those people cowards by implication is wrong and you know it is and that is what this was all about.

I admitted my hyperbole, but you of course filled with your ego and pride can't admit yours. America is at best an equal among nations these days and all your BS jingoistic we're number one crap is just that. It serves no purpose but to make you feel better about yourself and others who might fall into your line of reasoning.

I asked you specifically to show me where we are the leaders in the world today besides a few obvious fileds, you wont show me because you cant. I've lived in foreign countries for long stretches and I was always embarassed by the ugly American be they tourist or gov employee, those running around like we are the greatest when we are not, a lesson of humilty is in constant need with this crowd were you one of them? Get drunk and start talking to loud about how great America is and how everyone else would be speaking German if it weren't for us? This is the exact same kind of rhetoric they would use.

I know for fact through both experience and study that there are plenty of "great" countries out there, but again all the "greatness" talk is aside from the original point which is calling people who are considering leaving cowards by implication and that it is no better then when rightwingers cross associate Dem or Liberals with terrorists, it is the same mindset. It is caging according to your perception and it is wrong in my book if you actually want to win this fight. You can go on and keep trying to chase away those who have had a pile of experiences very different from yours by labeling them as such but the damage you do to our cause is obvious and on the surface.

In regards to you being assured of a doom prophet on every thread, I would ask of you to consider the OP who was likewise in turn begging for a response like mine and they got it. As far as being desirous of remaining a part of this country, I could have left years ago. I am still here because I want this country to be good for as any as possible. Unlike you however I will not do such a great disservice to fellow Liberals as you have, as that only enables the enemy at the helm. I try and talk them into staying and into fighting longer instead of telling them to just leave and completely disregarding their very real fears (which is maybe the mental and emotional roadblock you are having with this... that their fears are indeed real, because they are real to them if nothing else) and then furthering their disgust with this country because I imply they are cowards.

After all this I wish you would have asked for me to give you some positives about America, and I would've and then I would've related to you how every single positive is indeed in danger. However if you are for the dismantling of the constitution, the trampling of our rights, the poisoning of the earth, the live fire combat training of possible future terrorists in Iraq, a press that is ranked horribly low regarding its freedoms worldwide, and how anyone who tries to whistleblow or stand up and fight these fascism inducing twerps in government gets whipped in numerous decadent dictatorship fashions than please keep thinking everything is pretty much ok and everything will be just fine, we are not number nor the greatest by anyones imagination except yours and Americans like you... for fucksake the environment alone screams that you are dead wrong. These are indeed different times but the situation of gloom and doom I posted in number 24 are real fears minus maybe my description of anal rape (but this does indeed happen in prison and that is indeed where many of us are going to go if the religious extremists and ideologues of the rightwing have their way whether you want to admit it or not, don't believe me? Check out Dobsons letter to bush on his reselection, check out how hate crimes are on the rise, check out what they do to people who disagree with them better yet go and live it I dare you to find the negatives that exist wholecloth in the US shouldn't be very hard to find them at all). The bottom line one more time is that people who want to leave based on their fears have every right to feel that way without being implied as cowards or traitors. Now will you continue do as such?

With all due respect to your service as well, you were spewing garbage of the unrealistic rose colored galsses variety that leads to nothing but apathy in my opinion.. it is in fact why I hace decided to keep engaging you in this circular argument.

Furthermore I dont feel hopeless... yet. I am still here like I said, but for the last time those that have realized their own fears are not the people that you and the OP tried to broadbrush them to be. Your message was not one of hope, your message and the OPs was one of a DI screaming what a bunch of pussies these traitors are... and finally you dont weep for me at all, I know you don't because of the lack of compassion and empathy you have already shown to those who do not share your bright eyed rah rah attitude that doesn't work much outside of team sports and the military.

I love this country every bit as much as you do and I wont hold my tongue either when I see such fuckin' BS as espoused by the OP and your follow on statements to my posts (sorry but you tagged on me for it, turn about is fair play).

I would never seek to "ban" you as you have not broken a rule and I still believe in free speech and free will. This didnt "hurt too much" and in fact is childs play to me as I like you have dealt with the kind of people who refuse to see how bad things really are, and in matters of the heart and of empathy and of compassion I know and I am certain that I am in the right regarding how you and the OP have tried to shame fellow Dems/Liberals/Progressives just so you could feel better as you both certainly weren't trying to change minds or look for intelligent debate on the pros and cons of leaving. Yes Im quite certain, every bit as certain that you are that America is the absolute pinnacle of greatness in everything (at least by implication), and that nothing is really that wrong here and those that would leave are cowards.

I can always be certain to find posts like yours as well.

Ah hell ...one last time since I am not going to respond here anymore (feels like you want me to leave with the others and that isn't going to change... hey! maybe if we all leave because you and the OP said to then you'll have a better shot at getting this country back on track, yay hope springs eternal...), people who are very afraid have reason to fear but even if they didn't have anything to fear from what the US is turning into, trying to shove them all the faster out the door while implying they are cowards is, garbage, BS and all the other deregatories you have used on this thread in response to those who would defend the rights of the weary, the downtrodden and the soon to be opressed.

Take care and peace.

[Skelington]

67. If you don't respond, I hope you at least read this,

My "rose colored" glasses that I look thru, as you put it are colored by 23 years of military service. I learned more than a few lessons in more countries than I care to remember, but the only image that ever mattered was home, THIS HOME. I left the military, in lew of becoming divorced and losing my family. I know injustice, violence, bloodshed, intolerance and fear the likes of which I will not describe.

I have given a third of my life, I've given blood, and the lives of friends I love like brothers for what you call my "rah rah attitude". There is injustice in America, there is bigotry, and hatred and malice, but I don't need that shoved in my face every fucking time somebody shares my God Bless America "rah rah attitude" for a change. I listen to a blinding array of elected democrats, and fellow dems describe the US in a manner that would make it seem like a living hell, we are not nazis, we are not VC, we are not Pol Pot, and god dammit, I'm not looking for a fucking history lesson from you, I don't need to have "bullshit" cried every time I want to yell that the US is GREAT! I don't want anybody to leave, the USA is the greatest country in the world, but if it is not to your liking then leave, but how dare you judge me and my love of country. Your description of the gay pagan abortion worker is made up, to give your message teeth, and to make your point that not every american is happy, or feels safe. Well no fucking shit! Do you really think that I'm not aware of that? I thank you for the conversation, but I believe in the US, I love it, I would have died for it, and I'm tired of having someone cry foul when I want to yell it's the GREATEST country on the globe!

[DanCa]

25. As the Boss sang...

"Like soldiers on a winter's night with a vow to deffend. No retreat No Surrender," Bruce Springsteen 1984.

[mattclearing]

31. Things I want in my lifetime that will NEVER happen in the United States:

Universal Health Care

Foreign Policy not rooted in the assumption of global domination

Liberal government

Fair elections with more than two viable parties

Free and fair media

Dignified Social Safety Net

Economy not based on smoke and mirrors

[Katherine Brengle]

49. as ordered, have read and will now respond>

I didn't say it was wrong to leave, just that these things are possible if we get organized and fight for them.

[mattclearing]

58. hehe...sorry, not to order, but this is where I'm coming from on it. :)

[Katherine Brengle]

61. I 100% understand your reasons, and respect them. You have to do...

what you believe is best for yourself and your family.

For myself, I will stay and try to make it better, but in the same vein, that is my choice and mine alone.

Neither is superior to the other.

Best of luck!

[bucklebone]

52. Happening in the US

Universal Health Care - I think some form of it will happen some day, and probably in your lifetime. Full UHC would be a mistake.

Foreign Policy not rooted in the assumption of global domination - I don't think the US wants global domination as much as they want everyone to be able to share in what we have. Just look at their stance with China. It's five times bigger than the US and we are helping it achieve economic dominance in the world.

Liberal government - We'll see how things pan out in Europe over the next ten years before we will see that here.

Fair elections with more than two viable parties - There are fair elections in the US and as many parties who want to participate can.

Free and fair media - Free but not fair. That is true.

Dignified Social Safety Net - Could be better, but the inefficiencies of the system keep it from being better.

Economy not based on smoke and mirrors - Don't understand this one. Our economy is pretty darn tough to beat when compared to any other country.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Ah, bucklebone, I'm afraid you've only been looking at the surface

You're repeating the conventional wisdom, but look deeper, and you'll find that all is not as it seems.

[leftchick]

59. where to start?

but I will take this one for a laugh..."There are fair electioms in the US"!!!

:rofl:

[CJCRANE]

60. "I don't think the US wants global domination

as much as they want everyone to be able to share in what we have. Just look at their stance with China. It's five times bigger than the US and we are helping it achieve economic dominance in the world."

That's just so nice, looking out for the Chinese, helping them up the economic ladder.

[mattclearing]

63. Brief Responses

1. UHC - No, it won't. See the fair elections part. I just want people who can't get access to healthcare to have options. Right now that isn't the case.

2. You must not remember Howard Dean's getting yelled at by the American media and the RNC when he suggested that America was going to be surpassed militarily and economically. The US has made its play for the remaining oil reserves in the world in order to maintain its power, seeing that nuclear deterrence and military superiority are not going to be sufficient to maintain supremacy. Your assertion assumes we have a choice in helping China. Check our national debt or see the Economy not based on smoke and mirrors part for why this isn't so.

3. Liberal Government - Why not take a look at Canada first? Looks pretty good to me.

4. Fair elections with more than two viable parties - Did you miss Ohio in 2004? Florida in 2000? Ever heard of Diebold? We have an election reform forum here that is worth checking out. I would also like to see instant runoff voting and publicly funded elections.

5. Free and fair media - Agreed. Right now there's a serious question of legitimacy between corporate and independent news sources, and people are being burned by both sides. There is no longer a definitive place to learn the truth...it is being hashed out painstakingly at places like DU and DailyKos.

6. Dignified Social Safety Net - I think it's the politicians who keep this from being better...we reform taxes to get more money to the wealthy every year, but no one seems to put poverty very high on the list for reforms.

7. Economy not based on smoke and mirrors - Did you know we include fast food in our manufacturing figures to determine GDP? How about that 8 trillion dollar national debt? Ever wonder what would happen to American spending habits if not for the predatory lending habits of credit card companies? And then what would consequently happen to this economy you praise? The Great Depression showed that government of, by, and for corporations ends in economic ruin. Apparently the lesson was not well learned.

[LWolf]

33. How about this?

I'm not going anywhere, but I'm not getting in your fucking line, either.

I tend to respond to "Get the hell out. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way." in a couple of ways. I might grin and flash you an expressive finger, or I might take that gate swing it back in on you, and crush you behind it for having the arrogance to assume that you can tell me where to go...or not.

I guess it all depends on what you are fighting for. I stand up for, and act for, my beliefs and values. They may be different than yours. What I care about, I will defend in my own way, and I don't need anybody telling me where, or how, to go about that.

I don't really give a shit about the U.S. as a nation. I never have. I am not a respecter of political boundaries, nationalism, or it's "kinder and gentler" brother, patriotism.

I don't belong to any damned place, but I belong where ever I choose to place myself, regardless of those political boundaries.

I care about some of the ideals embodied in the U.S. Constitution. I am willing to work for those ideals. I'm willing to work for what I value, no matter where the work takes me. One of the concepts I hold sacred is the right of the individual to make their choices and experience their consequences. If the individuals in the U.S., through the choices they make, turn the U.S. into a place that I can not comfortably exercise my own choices, I might consider leaving. I haven't reached that point yet, but should I do so it won't be because some arrogant, sanctimonious bully decides to tell me to "Get the hell out. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way."

I'm not leaving at this point because I see that there is important work to be done. Work in the form of reaching out, shining the light on corruption, and allowing people to see clearly before they make their choices. I see dysfunction that needs healing. I see people who need educating, and they need to be open to that healing or that education before it can happen. I don't think that statements like "Get the hell out. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way" advance that cause in any way.

Perhaps the first line of action might be to excise the cancer of bully mentality from U.S. culture.

[Skelington]

36. So instead of believing in the country,

you're just going to "walk the earth like Cane",righting wrongs? "I don't really give a shit about the U.S. as a nation" your words, I would like to talk to you after the cool breeze of reality blows past you. Where else have your "boundry-less" travels taken you, and I don't mean where have you vacationed, what wisdom can you offer us? Do you use the name LWolf, because it makes you feel like you are standing as a lone defender.

Please don't get in the same "fucking" line as me, this kind of dribble is best left to one shot to many, at last call.

[LWolf]

73. You are right.

I don't "believe in" the country. I believe in universal concepts which cross national boundaries. That's why I don't give a shit about any nation.

As far as reality goes, I've lived in it all of my life. Perhaps that's why I don't "believe" in nations or nationalism. Where my life has taken me has led me to that pov, just as where your life has taken you has led you to yours.

Don't worry about your line; I just don't do line-ups, and I doubt I would have been tempted anyway. The post you are responding to is my response to this statement:

"Get the hell out. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way."

I think that statement personifies the attitude that is destroying this "country," and that has contributed to conflict around the globe throughout history. Do you have something signficant to add to that discussion?

[Skelington]

75. Fair enough,

as much as it hurts to hear you say you don't give a shit about the country, I try to understand what you are saying. I am very inflexible with regards to love of country, and a bit over-zealous at times when the country I love is degraded.

I have a thick skull, and don't change easily, however I am trying to embrace a more live and let live attitude. Old dogs learn tricks slowly.

This thread pushed my buttons before I even posted, and only got worse after I started.

No harm, No foul?

[LWolf]

76. No harm, no foul.

I don't want to change your pov; I know it comes from your experiences, which makes it valid, just as my pov is valid for my experiences. I just don't want anyone telling me that I can get in their line or get out; that pushes MY buttons.

[rambler1277]

41. you love yourself more than your country

Your attitude seems to be "I'll take as much as I can get from America but if she asks for anything in return that I don't feel like giving then screw that, I'm leaving". You don't care about the U.S. as a nation? That's too bad.

[LWolf]

72. NO.

I love my planet and all her inhabitants more than my country. My "country" is not the land or the living things, at least not to me. My "country" is a political/financial power structure.

Also, as I pointed out pretty clearly, I've never said I was leaving.

What I have to give is freely given to the planet and those of her children who want it; what nation happens to be controlling that part of the planet or that group of inhabitants is irrelevant. To me.

[mmonk]

39. I'll stay until it doesn't make sense too.

That possibility exists no matter how hard you battle.

[liberalitch]

40. We shall fight on the beaches.....

"...we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our "Island", whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender,...."

[MadHound]

42. Thank you friend, great post

Saying what needs to be said. We need every warm body and thinking mind we can get here to fight this bullshit. Glad to see others thinking same way:toast:

[uppityperson]

48. We each must make our own decisions, don't insult others decisions

Please don't insult people who make choices other than the 1 you have made. We each must make our own decision, based on what we see, how we feel, what works the best for each of us. My grandparents immigrated to the USA due to the political climate in the countries they lived in. If they hadn't, I wouldn't be here. People in the USA are seeing these sorts of things happening here, now, and are making decisions based on this.

I will not insult you in your choice, why do you see other possible choices to leave as such a threat you must insult those who chose otherwise?

I am glad you are fine with your decision to continue to live here. For now, I do also. In the future, I don't know.

[DemonGoddess]

51. We need to stay and fight!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. A country is just lines on a map

I love the landscape of the U.S., and some traits of its culture (volunteerism, ability to absorb immigrants), but I despise other traits (glorification of ignorance and violence, worship of the automobile, mindless nationalism), and the current government is making a mockery of the ideals that are supposed to be the foundation of America.

All this talk about "the greatest country in the world" is nothing but typical mindless nationalism. I have to wonder how many other countries such people have lived in or even visited, and I don't mean on a military base or in a Club Med or on a two-week bus tour. Yes, millions of people want to live here, but only a tiny percentage of them are from other industrialized Western countries, and most of those have come to take a specific job or marry a specific person, not because their lives in the Old Country were intolerable. The people who are pouring into this country are from desperately poor and/or war-torn Third World countries. These days, the most numerous immigrants to the Twin Cities are not Swedes and Norwegians but Somalis, Hmong, Mexicans, and Ethiopians.

All this talk about fighting is silly, too. At the moment, those of us who are disgusted with the Bush administration are not even getting much support from the party that supposedly represents us. The alleged opposition party can't even see its way to presenting a united front in opposing the worst president in U.S. history. This does not give me a lot of hope for the future.

I'm stuck here with family obligations for the time being, but if anyone on DU or anywhere else feels the need to leave and has the opportunity to do so, I wish them all the best. I bear no more animosity toward them than I do toward someone who moves from a small town in Minnesota to New York City because he or she feels more like a city person than a country person and wants to do things that are difficult or impossible in the rural Midwest.

Come to think of it, the attitude that some DUers are exhibiting to those who are considering emigration is remarkably similar to the attitudes that small town people express when one of their residents moves to the big city.

[VLC98]

69. One of the best posts I've read in a long time!

I think you might be a professional writer Lydia, as that was wonderfully put. As an "immigrant" who came here through marriage to a specific person, I completely agree with your thoughts. Thanks!

[sandyd921]

77. Very sensible

I feel similarly. I will stay as long as I feel that it's possible to make a difference and I feel safe. I am looking at my options if things get worse. I find myself looking longingly at other Western countries that seem to truly care about the welfare of their citizens while also valuing democratic ideals. The Canadian dream or the Western European dream are looking pretty good to me. On the other hand, I still believe that is possible to turn things around in this country and I am trying to do what I can.

[area51]

55. So bitter. (n/t)

[Karenina]

57. Your "ballot box"

is an electronic device whose code is "proprietary." Read: the property of a corporation.

It's truly sad that so many Americans have not been afforded the opportunity to travel beyond their borders, nor encouraged to master other languages. Just those two experiences can have such a profound affect on how "the other" is perceived. Granted, there is a festering wound domestically that is STILL unmentionable which, since Katrina, has changed many an opinion outside your borders. "The others" INSIDE your borders clearly have no recourse. AND THEY SPEAK ENGLISCH. Why would you fault anyone who sees the *CRAYON handwriting on the wall?

I have nothing but total support for anyone in the U.S. who has the moxy and ability to relocate in this moment. Had my loved ones NOT done that, they would all be DEAD.

[OnionPatch]

62. But what if

The majority of Americans really ARE assholes? What if they all really DO want to live like Nazis in their Christofascist nation? If you believe in democracy, then that might be what America is going to be like whether we like it or not.

As long as I know that there are others like you out there willing to fight for our country, that the heart of America still believes in freedom and I am not alone in a country of Nazi-like sheep, I'll stay and continue to work at making it better. But if they were to start rounding up the liberals or drafting my kids for more wars, I have to get my family out. Priorities.

[meisje]

64. deleted

[meisje]

65. Thery're not going anywhere, bunch of bullshit

[abex]

66. i'm staying and fighting and looking forward to taking

neo-con scalps.

[proud patriot]

68. Shoulder to shoulder brother

:patriot:

[Deja Q]

70. Where's to go that's safe? LET them leave...

they're not worth it anyway.

[txindy]

71. Gee, with friends like that, who would ever want to leave?

:eyes:

[BeHereNow]

78. The ONLY reason to leave is this:

Americans are among the most ignorant, arrogant, misinformed
and easily entertained people on the planet.

To leave thinking you can escape the global empire
is foolish. To leave simply be around people
who actually read books and have some sense
of the world other than Faux News coverage is
understandable while the world is in the grip of
such people as our current administration.

I blame no person who chooses the latter.

My 2 cents.
BHN