Is Jon Stewart's criticism of Cindi and Chavez warranted?

[Quixote1818]

Poll question: Is Jon Stewart's criticism of Cindi and Chavez warranted?

Right now I don't have an opinion on this because I don't know much about Chavez. Convince me which way I should go.

[stillcool]

1. You can't be serious....?

Hugging Chavez hurts what goal? Christ Almighty she's NOT an elected representative...she's a private person..entitled in some countries to do what she pleases. As far as any other country on this globe, I can not speak....for the one I live in is becoming more foreign by the day. Why don't you spend some time reading what your government is doing, rather than worrying about ONE of it's however many million citizens. edited because I don't mean to be nasty.....it just seems so irrelevant to the reality's of our corroding democracy.

[balzac]

67. Amen Brother.

A lot of these kids apparently weren't paying attention to the CIA-backed death squads operating in Latin America in past decades. Reagan's atrocities weren't the first American aggression in Nicaragua, either.

Our very own Bush tried to overthrow Chavez with a militant coup attempt. They failed because he was too popular. They had to let Hugo Chavez out of jail and back into the Presidential palace.

These kids are so ignorant. They apparently don't know about Democratically elected socialist Salvador Allende getting slaughtered so Fascist PIG Pinochet could murder all those tens of thousands of Chileans.

JEZUS!

[mattclearing]

150. You don't think it detracts from her message?

Nothing about right or wrong...she's clearly right.

[ProfessorGAC]

133. And, He IS The Duly Elected President Of An Entire Country, No?

He's not a tinpot dictator. He's a freely elected president of a quite prosperous Latin American country. So, a private citizen showing respect and caring toward another country's bigshot would hardly seem to be anything for anybody to fault.

The Professor

[deacon]

2. .....as the GOP continues to abuse power and rape america..... n/t

[leftstreet]

3. What did Stewart say?

:shrug:

Can't vote without some info.

[Ken Burch]

6. The thing we all need to remember here is that, while Jon Stewart

is a comedy god, he has never presented himself as a leftist nor even as a down-the-line liberal. If he sees a public figure doing something he thinks is silly or out there, Stewart will nail them on it. I don't think this will really do Cindy that much harm, and Hugo Chavez is not going to be overthrown by a guy from Comedy Central.

[abex]

14. stewart should have chavez on his show nt

[leftstreet]

15. I absolutely agree. I just wondered what he actually said. n/t

[Quixote1818]

19. I didn't see the show

I just pieced this poll together based on the points people were making on another thread.

[personman]

4. NO.

To Quixote1818:

Follow Venezuelan politics.

Watch the movie "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"

Yahoo's Full Coverage of Venezuela

Personally, I see alot of lies and distortions and mudslinging from the elites his direction, and so far every allegation (that is atleast a week or two old) that I'm aware of has been debunked. He seems to be very popular with his country's poor, and very unpopular with Bush. That is my take on him so far, but you should make up your own mind. Don't let anyone tell you what to think.

-personman

[LittleClarkie]

5. I don't see a choice that really "says it" for me, but here's a link

See what you think:

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

If anyone has a pro-Chavez link, perhaps they could post it as well so that Quixote might make an informed decision.

[0rganism]

9. There's at least one DU thread on the subject

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2050804

Personally, I find the Venezuela page rather mild, compared to what the HRW report has to say about other countries in Latin America and the USA. :shrug:

[jackbourassa]

59. I agree. The worst thing seems to be that he "packed" the...

Venezuelan Supreme Court.

[Quixote1818]

10. Someone posted this on the other thread

Venezuela law passed under Chavez:

"Anyone who offends with his words or in writing or in any other way disrespects the President of the Republic or whomever is fulfilling his duties will be punished with prison of 6 to 30 months if the offense is serious and half of that if it is light."


Early on I remember hearing all kinds of good things about Chavez but now I am confused. Who the hell knows?

[tocqueville]

18. Chavez isn't snowhite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez

Criticisms from human rights organizations

Violations of political freedoms
Human rights organization Amnesty International has, as of December 2004, documented at least 14 deaths and at least 200 wounded during confrontations between anti-Chavez demonstrators and National Guard, police, and other security personnel in February and March 2004. Several reports of ill-treatment and torture at the hands of the Chavez government's security forces have also surfaced. There are reports of slow and inadequate investigations into these abuses, which AI had attributed to the lack of police and judiciary impartiality. The organization also has documented numerous reports of both police brutality and unlawful extrajudicial killings of criminal suspects, as well as intimidation of witnesses to the abuses. Calls by the Inter-American Court of Human Rights on the Chavez government to quell such threats and intimidation have also reportedly not been addressed, and Chávez himself has suggested that some international human rights defenders had intentions of fomenting turmoil and destabilizing the country. These allegations have been reported to result in the endangerment of human rights defenders, including death threats.<9>


Violation of freedom of expression
The Chavez government has been denounced by Human Rights Watch for its passage of legislation that threatens to stifle anti-Chavez criticism and dissent from Venezuelan media. The statements are leveled specifically at restrictive amendments to the Venezuelan Criminal Code that criminalize insults, disrespect, and libelous remarks from the news media aimed at either the president or other government authorities. Severe punishments, including sentences of up to 40 months, are part of the so-called "Law on the Social Responsibility of Radio and Television" personally endorsed by Chavez.<10>

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

I think that the Cindy story is quite typical. When you oppose somebody with all right, it doesn't mean that ALL the opponents of your enemy are good guys. And people who in the past to protest against a war went and visited Pol Pot, Milosevic, Saddam, Hassad etc... regret it now...

in one sentence : opposing Bush's Cuba policy doesn't make Castro a hero.

[Quixote1818]

23. Very interesting. Thanks!

nt

[balzac]

81. Why don't you try leading a country which Bush is trying to topple?

Bush tried to overthrow Chavez with a coup. They put Chavez in jail, but the people protested so furiously, they let him out. Can you imagine trying to hold a country together with George Bush trying to topple it? Pushing millions into the hands of a racist elite minority who slander you with racist cartoons?

Think of Allende's murder and Pinochet's reign of terror. Think of Nicaragua, death squads trained in Fort Benning Georgia, I believe - the School of the Americas. Think of catholic nuns, raped and murdered by guerillas trained at SOA by our CIA. Think of John Negroponte and all the killings he did. Now he's in Iraq.



Bush hates Chavez.
Pat Robertson wants him dead.

Cindy Sheehan likes him.
Harry Belafonte likes him.

Who do you trust?

[tocqueville]

126. things are not black and white

the fact that Bush doesn't like a "socialist" in charge of oil-rich Venezuela doesn't make Chavez to a saint.
Read the whole articles about Chavez on wikipedia and form your own opinion.

For me it's obvious that Chavez is a populist in the European sense, that is to say a demagogue. And if Amnesty says that he abuses human rights, it's probably true. That doesn't make Bush or Robertsom to geniuses and "good guys" either.

the Fact that Cindy and Harry "like" Chavez isn't a proof that Chavez is "good". Probably they don't know a fuck about him, which doesn't make them to bad people or wrong people either. Emotional siding has nearly always a price like Jane Fonda who regrets today some siding in an otherwise righteous struggle against the Vietnam war.

[Bridget Burke]

155. Populist = Demagogue?

It may be obvious to you.

[rman]

122. Even according to HRW (which is a RW organisation), the US is worse

then Venezuela wrt human rights violations.

http://hrw.org/wr2k6/wr2006.pdf

page 501
United States

Guantanamo Bay and Military Commissions

Torture Policy

Detainee Abuse

Al-Marri and Padilla

Material Witnesses

Incarceration

The Death Penalty and Other Cruel Sentences

Katrina

International Treaty Obligations

[insanity]

7. She's become a tool

I supported what she did in Crawford, but she has become the face of the anti-war left and everything she does seems to take credibility away from our movement. If she runs for office people are going to say she used her son's death to advance her political career.

[0rganism]

12. as opposed to W using her son's death to advance his political career

along with the deaths of over 2400 other Americans in Iraq, and some 3000 in NYC. I think it's pretty clear who's got the line on trading other peoples' death for votes.

[insanity]

20. I almost lost three friends because of W

W and that whole administration are the lowest of the low, the quintessential scummy slimy assholes. Cindy has allowed herself to become manipulated by the left (sadly, the left is capable of cheap political stunts too), but there is no comparison between her and Bush.

[Katherine Brengle]

17. insanity, letting the right decide your position is not a good start...

Frankly, who the f* cares what people think?

There was time when the "politicians" were statesmen. People who genuinely cared about the direction of this nation and the well-being of its people and chose public service out of a deep and abiding love of this country and what it stood for.

Cindy Sheehan is always going to be smeared by the right. Sometimes she even gets smeared by the left, which is a very sad state of affairs in my opinion.

But one thing remains true--she has a vision for what she wants America to, of what it was meant to be, and if she chooses to make an attempt to serve the public in an official capacity, more power to her.

As a military family member and a peace activist, I take no issue with Cindy Sheehan or anything that she has done. People talk about how poignant and moving her initial protest in Crawford was and how she should have stopped there, having made her point.

The thing is, quitting gets you nowhere. Until Cindy, the peace movement had no face. We were marginalized because of the extreme views of groups like International ANSWER. Now we have, not a leader, but a human face that people all over this country and all over the world can recognize. Recognition is power.

Cindy brought power back into the peace movement. For that, she deserved nothing less than our gratitude and respect. She doesn't deserve to be politicized by the people who are supposed to be on her side.

We have to stop alienating each other, or we're never going to accomplish anything.

[insanity]

22. I agree with your last two points

Cindy did a great service to the peace movement, and for that I am grateful. However, I think she (maybe being naive) allowed herself to become politicized by the people on our side.

[Katherine Brengle]

165. her issue is political, therefore she has no chance of not being...

"politicized."

We like to think that peace is just a higher goal of conscientious people. While it is, it is also a serious political matter, covering a whole range of issues, including nuclear disarmament, human rights, and the need for the United States (and the rest of the world) to really start thinking seriously about building a true culture of life, respecting its sanctity and regarding it as a gift to be used in only the best possible ways. Fighting for peace is in line with fighting for open, transparent government and every other progressive issue.

It is innately political, even if we wish it weren't.

[Lars39]

33. Good post, Katherine Brengle !

Welcome to DU! :toast:

[Katherine Brengle]

166. thanks :) n/t

[Maat]

171. Well said!

I agree with you, Katherine Brengle!

[Maat]

167. I'm part of the anti-war left ..

and if she's the face of the movement, I'm happy. She's had the ultimate happend to her - the loss of a child. I'm so glad that she is speaking truth to power. By the way, I used to be thought of as somewhat of a moderate - until this evil junta came to power in 2000.

[Up2Late]

8. His comments were just wacky, I think he's on some sort of Cold Meds...

... or something. Said he had the Stomach Flu Yesterday.

I don't think he quite gets the Chavez "thing."

[Lars39]

11. Bush admin has tried to overthrow him twice, I believe.

A democratically elected leader, at that.
Anything or anybody that highlights this admin's crimes is subject to being smeared in our press.

[realisticphish]

13. I have no idea

but i'd remind some people that being anti-bush does not necessarily make one good

[Quixote1818]

16. You make a good point

Something to think about

[Judi Lynn]

84. It would do you a world of good to inform yourself on what Chavez

IS doing in Venezuela, and what has changed there after he was elected.

Trying to repeat empty, idiotic claims already posted here by visitors before you doesn't contribute as much to the conversation as you would hope.

People appreciate what Hugo Chavez has done. The fact the American rightwing idiot President dislikes him is not relative.

You need to start paying attention, and trying to learn something. Read some history, learn about the countries, and THEN give opinion based upon knowledge, not mimicry of ignorant right-wingers.

[realisticphish]

94. what the hell did i do?

all i said is that i did NOT know, and was just saying that meer disliking of bush doesn't mean a person was good. I don't know what i think about chavez, and i never claimed to think one way or the other. Chavez has made some huge changes in central america, but there are also some practices of his regime that i don't like.

i don't know what the fuck i did to elicite this reaction

[CanCon]

21. This man is not the right pony to back...

In the wake of a failed—and hotly contested—2004 recall attempt, Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez Frías has clamped down on civil liberties, property rights, and Western foreign oil companies that are still operating in this impoverished South American country. He has decreed new laws that define public protest as a crime, has imposed media restrictions that encourage substantial self-censorship under threat of operating license confiscation, and has begun to seize large rural farms and ranches that he claims are not sufficiently productive. Energy and Petroleum Minister Rafael Ramírez announced in May 2005 that income taxes on the handful of foreign firms pumping oil in Venezuela would be raised to 50 percent from 34 percent, retroactive to 2001. Energy experts reportedly believe that Venezuela is shipping less oil than it claims as a result of lagging maintenance at the state-owned Petróleos de Venezuela S.A., the internal resources of which allegedly have been sapped by corruption, mismanagement, and the diversion of profits to social programs and government officials. To the alarm of neighbors and internal opponents, the government has announced the purchase of 100,000 assault rifles, a number of Russian combat helicopters, and possibly MiG-29 jet fighters, as well as a reserve-force buildup to some 1.5 million cadres. Venezuela's fiscal burden of government is 0.7 point worse this year. As a result, its overall score is 0.07 point worse this year.

This is only a small portion, of course.

[Quixote1818]

24. Thanks for the info

nt

[DemInDistress]

25. sounds like chavez is one step ahead of the bush crime family

when Martial Law comes to America probably before march 26 2006 when Iran goes euro we will all see the changes. Just like Chavez... good post BTW

[balzac]

47. Chavez was nearly overthrown by CIA goons backed by BUSH!

Chavez is only trying to defend his democratic mandate against tyranny. Chavez was arrested by his opposition in the attempted coup and then huge protests forced the new guy to step down and they restored Chavez.

He's a popular man because he takes care of the people. Please, don't swallow the Bush propaganda. We need Chavez. We need Evo Morales, and the new leftist president who will be elected in Mexico. This is the light at the end of the Bush tunnel.

[oasis]

27. What country would threaten Venezuela to the point that Chavez feels

it necessary to purchase such armaments?

[CanCon]

28. Colombia n/t

n/t means no text!

[iamthebandfanman]

32. ah yes

cant forgot about colombia

now it makes sense.
the u.s. wouldnt want their drug trafficing ring destroyed by some 'darn commie'.
lol

[iamthebandfanman]

30. hmm

maybe his own ?
im sure there are people there that disagree with him
and id imagine they are delt with kinda harshly
tho i dunno that for fact

[High Plains]

86. Is that a rhetorical question?

[oasis]

114. It can be a useful tool in getting a poster to cough up the facts. If they

know the facts.;-)

[balzac]

101. THE United States of America GENIUS!!!

Duuuuuhhhhhhh.....

Bush tried to topple Chavez just a couple years ago. He wants that Venezuelan oil! We get a good percentage of our fuel from Hugo.

Fuck, that question was so dumb, it made my brain hurt.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Link, please?

Thanks.

[CanCon]

35. Here you are:

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Venezuela

[Lars39]

39. LOL The Heritage Foundation is right wing. Not creditable at all.

[CanCon]

44. What kind of sources would you prefer? n/t

[Lars39]

46. Not anything from a right wing org.

[CanCon]

51. These?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela


http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_VEN.html
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/cty/cty_f_VEN.html


I realize the Heritage Foundation is right-wing, however the facts they state in the excerpt I quoted are not exactly in doubt. Chavez has established some questionable economic initiatives and passed some very harsh laws.

[Selatius]

80. Venezuela's economy is not the sole fault of Chavez

Before Chavez the majority of Venezuelans lived below the poverty line. That was largely the fault of previous administrations. Social programs to eliminate illiteracy, promote education, and health care programs are a vital investment in any economy. I would argue it is almost as important as investments in the economy itself. A workforce that suffers from poor health and lack of education will not do as well as one that is healthy and skilled.

[oasis]

43. "The Heritage Foundation"?? Gimme a break. That's like using PNAC

as the authority on Saddam and WMD.

www.newamericancentury.org

[LittleClarkie]

106. I'm sorry to say that this is a Conservative site

linked to Rush Limbaugh. Sorry. Not cool.

[JanMichael]

170. Ha! A Rightwing bullshit machine.

Go away.

[High Plains]

77. Where is this from, please?

[EFerrari]

111. What is the source for this blurb?

What is says is, Chavez puts the welfare of his people above the welfare of foreign oil companies. Which is why BushCo hates him.

And THAT makes him "the wrong pony"? :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

157. And your source is?

Nice formatting, though.

[JanMichael]

169. Take off and take with you that Fascist quote. Bullshit, bullshit, bull.

Spin off, ugly spin, soryy but you aren't on my team.

Bite me and the propoganda bullshit you just posted.

[iamthebandfanman]

26. hm

i dont mean to call shananigans but...

do the mods here allow people to have multiple nicknames ?

[Lars39]

45. no

who and who?:D

[fujiyama]

29. I rarely ever go after him

but that whole thing just wasn't even all that funny. The audience didn't seeem all that amused either.
\
Also, he never made it clear thhat thhere was a huge difference between Young's wife and Sheehan in that Sheehan was arrested and roughed up. Instead he did that weird King Kong thing which was just kinda dumb.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

34. Same folks that are bashing Cindi are also bashing Chavez..

no one is an angle & I disagree with some of his actions, but lets not forget that Bush supported the coup against him & he was afraid of his life. Some of those tactics are similar to what Bush & Co. do - like arrest Cindi for dissension - so for the right wing to criticize Chavez is calling the kettle black. If Chavez can get under Bush's skin then he cannot be all bad.

Tough question to choose. She has the freedom to hang out with anyone she wants to but not sure its the right thing to do. The more effect she has the more they will smear & go after her. The escalation of attacks will only increase & be used to distract from her original message. Basically, there's some truth to both answers.

[Quixote1818]

36. Good Post

nt

[1932]

174. Why do you say 'good post' only to posts that criticize Chavez?

You like the posts that say that she's either wrong, or that she was right, but that Chavez is a bad guy.

And you don't seem to care that those posts don't cite facts. You're happy with opinon.

If you care about the truth, you'd think that you'd care about facts and not opinions.

[Quixote1818]

182. That post is nutral. Did you even read it?

nt

[seabeyond]

37. what is this bashing shit. is it bashing giving FACTS on the man

are we really so wussy that to give facts on this man cannot be allowed ergo all people that chose to look for facts, reality.... are bashing, or right wing talkers

i knew nothing about chavez. i decided i had to learn something to see if stewart was being unfair. i got the facts..... not an idol worship or protecting him at all cost making something he isnt, because it fit my agenda, but the reality of what he is doing in venz. and you say that is BASHING. that is such crap.....

are we factual, informed. or are we dumb down to follow a crowd. you decide

[balzac]

40. Learn a little history, hothead.

The US has been abusing Latin America with CIA backed death-squads for decades. There are US-supported thugs who've already tried and failed to overthrow Chavez, a democratically elected socialist.

Chavez is our man. Don't fuck with him.

[seabeyond]

48. what the u.s. has done and is doing has nothing to do with what

chavez is implementing in his own country. i will f* with whoever i want to fuck with. i dont even give a shit about the man. or cindy huggin him. sheehan can do whatever she wants. she isnt a democrat, she doesnt represent our party, she could give him a huge ass kiss, i dont care. but you totally ignore everything this man is doing and pee your pants over bush. go after bush for what he is doing. you can do both. you can dislike what bush is doing, oppose what bush is doing and STILL know the facts about chavez. not a tough one. but then you probably know what chavez is doing and you ignore it....... for your own personal reasons.

and on edit, that is as far as i have gone on chavez. i have given no opinion on what i think o fthe man. i have had no judgement on if he is doing wrong or is a bad guy. all i am doing is putting out laws he implements in his country. that is not bashing.

[balzac]

53. You mentioned some facts?

You've apparently got some facts you're very confident of. Care to share?

[seabeyond]

61. it was posted to you on the other thread.

you have been following him for how many years cheering him on. you know what they are. you know what he is doing in his country, the good and the bad. you told me you have been cheering him for years.

[balzac]

69. 2 or 3 years at least, I've been watching him

I wouldn't know the latest propaganda smear against him. You come to me talking about facts, yet now you're empty handed. Is that all you're going to say? "The dog ate my homework! There's a fact in another thread! You should already know!"

Show me a fact! Put your credibility behind a fact about Chavez. Or, STFU.

[seabeyond]

128. as i said, this link has already been given to you

from a previous thread by another poster. i went to bed


http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

[1932]

176. What facts at that link have convinced you?

Let's break this down, as it has been broken down in the past when people cite HRW's criticisms of Venezuela.

[seabeyond]

181. first we need to look at convinced me of what.?

what am i convinced of? what are you assuming i am convinced of?

[NoAmericanTaliban]

60. I was referring to right wingers that are lumping Cindi with Chavez and

bashing them both. Tactic they use is to lump all their enemies together and dilute their messages through sound bite attacks. The irony the Daily Show was pointing out is that here Cindi is dissenting and being arrested while not too long ago she was hunging a guy that was arresting dissenters. Meant no harm to you. Like I said, Chavez is no angel...no leader is.

[seabeyond]

62. isnt that kinda ironic. the people yelling at me on this thread

standing up for chavez at all cost, ten to a dozen, where yelling about sheehan being arrested for the tshirt. i personally find it ironic myself. dont you.

and btw that isnt bashing cindy, i didnt think she should be arrested. bad repugs, bad bad, bad cops bad bad.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

68. at least irony is not a lost art....not tonight at least

[1932]

175. What facts have you gotten?

?

[balzac]

38. Bush already failed to remove Chavez in a coup

Bush succeeded in removing Aristide. Bush want's Venezuela's sweet crude. Chavez must be defended against Bush, Pat Robertson, and if neccessary, John Stewart.

I love John Stewart, but Chavez has slightly higher credibility with me, especially after tonight.

[CanCon]

41. I think you're misguided

I absolutely guarantee you the type of nightly satire about Bush we expect from Stewart nightly would NEVER be allowed under Chavez.

The enemy of our enemy is not always our friend.

[ugarte]

49. If the Venezuelans want him, what the hell business is it of Americans?

He ran and won in an internationally supervised free election. Why don't you worry more about the harm your own country is doing in the world?

[seabeyond]

54. firstly carter could validate the second election. he said too much

was hidden and has been suggested that it was stolen. who knwos, who cares, just some information for you. secondly, it is no business of the u.s./ none. they have no right to invade country or set up coups. bush is a bad man. a very bad man. bush needs to get in trouble

regardless., chavez has implemented his own laws, .....thatt are on record. you decide.

[CanCon]

55. I worry about a lot of things

He ran under significant suspicion. Including, ironically, questions about the legitimacy of electronic voting machines that were owned by a group biased to Chavez's side.

Not to mention a 25% voter turnout. Look, I'm no Bush fan, but just because he has an interest against Chavez doesn't make Chavez a hero.

[ugarte]

64. Whether he's a hero to you or not isn't the point

He is certainly as legitimate as the long line of robber barons before him who represented only the oligarchy.

[CanCon]

65. Two wrongs still don't add up to a right

Replacing one form of kleptocracy with another doesn't validate the change. Chavez has begun seizing property such as farms and homes, he has passed self-serving censorship laws and retroactive taxation on outside companies. He is arming his country for an inevitable war with Colombia, or more realistically supporting FARC to bring down Colombian government.

Even Jimmy Carter doubted the legitimacy of their elections. Chavez, again, is no hero and no friend to Americans, liberal or conservative.

[ugarte]

70. "Chavez is no friend to Americans?" You must be joking

We tried to oust him with a military coup. And you want him to still be our friend? Maybe your idea of a good friend is Pinochet or some other fascist butcher.

[CanCon]

72. Did you completely bypass my post?

I said no friend to Americans, conservative or liberal. Seems like a lot of armchair socialists praise him up and totally gloss over all the allegations of elections fraud, economic deceit, land grabs, human rights violations (Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch), and military buildup.

Chavez will eventually join the ranks of Pinochet and other installed fascists, mark my words.

[ugarte]

76. "Land grabs" is standard right-wing vocabulary

The oligarchy is nervous because most of what they own was looted from the country in the first place, and now they scream bloody murder when Chavez threatens to take some of it back and redistribute it to the poor. Of course you've made it pretty clear which side you come down on.

[CanCon]

79. So wait...

One does not have to support right-wing causes to speak out against communist dictators. The oligarchy be damned, Chavez is stealing land from private citizens, mostly middle class, while the percentage living below the poverty line is still ~67% based on a 2001 estimate.

Seems to me like the poor aren't seeing much of this hallowed public land and oil revenues. Unemployment is estimated at between 17.5 and 20%, as of last year.

[Selatius]

90. Unemployment was worse before Chavez

Look at the situation before Chavez came:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1459

The Land Law Chavez passed was aimed at big land-owners.

http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/2161.cfm

[ugarte]

99. You keep calling Chavez a dictator. Even Bush doesn't say that

nor any other reputable source I know of. But don't let that stop you.

[Lars39]

102. Rummy compared him to Hitler today::

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2082212&mesg_id=2082212

[ugarte]

104. Maybe Rummy is posting on this thread...

Some of the shit I'm hearing.

[Lars39]

105. Gotta wear the standard-issue DU hip-boots. :^)

[JanMichael]

172. I agree. There are either some seriously misinformed "Dems"

Which is likely. But I have the feeling that there are some seriously non-progressive mofo's on this and every other Chavez thread.

[High Plains]

89. Ah, you don't like socialists.

[CanCon]

154. Correct

And I like kleptocrats even less.

[balzac]

50. You don't understand Democracy in Latin America

The good ole USA is always trying to subvert it! How about Allende in Chile? We put Pinochet in power. How about those death squads we trained at the School of the Americas? Ever heard of SOA?

You're probably clueless about politics in Latin America. Chavez is fighting a US funded organized, politically-subversive, conspiratorial opposition that wants to do to him what was done to Aristide, maybe even Allende.

You would lose your sense of humor too, if the people making fun of you worked for Bush. Do you think Tucker Carlson is funny?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

129. That's a lie. Venezuela's most popular and beloved stand up comedian

goes after Chavez in every CD and stand up routine he does (worse than Jon Stewart). To this day no one has said shit to him.

[1932]

177. But the friend of the poor is always your friend.

[seabeyond]

42. bush was wrong. robertson was wrong. stewart, i dont give a shit

and chavez has his own issue. or you can pretend otherwise

[balzac]

52. And you can pretend you have a clue about Chavez

Some of us have been cheering for him for years.

[jonnyblitz]

56. "the revolution won't be televised:" great documentary on chavez

his enemies are the wealthy and the right wingers in Venezuala. :thumbsup:

[seabeyond]

58. cheer for him. i dont care. i really dont care. support, it is fine

i wasnt that bothered by the man. and he helps the poor. i am not opposed to the man. i dont have to be opposed to the man, just cause i can see all the facts, just cause i am honest about saying what he does in his country, doesnt mean i am bashing. it is just friggin facts. why is everyone so afraid of facts.

[balzac]

66. Gimme Facts.

I want these facts you speak of.

[PatrioticLeftie]

57. People reading WAY too much into this

Stewart makes a small crack and suddenly somethings wrong with him? Stewart made himself a figure who is not a straight forward liberal, he clearly takes a small step on the sideline, because he knows no one if perfect.

[WCGreen]

63. Yes and not for the reasons in the poll....

Simply because he is dong a comedy show....

And, the two of them together, it's news, relevant and funny....

[renate]

71. this quote was an eye-opener for me: PLEASE READ although it's long

I've thought he was a big working-class hero, cheap fuel for the poor, anti-Bush, he's a left-wing leader, etc. I really admired the guy.

Last night that balloon was abruptly popped. I'm reading Tom Fenton's PHENOMENAL book "Bad News." I'm racking up overdue fees on it from the library because I'm trying to choose which selection to post on DU--it is an superb and extremely critical book on the news business--DO NOT MISS IT. Tom Fenton isn't so much liberal (and he's certainly not conservative), he is all about truth in the news. Which an honest, ethical person puts before party, and which I therefore believe reflects the inclination of the membership of DU. Bad liberals are no better than bad conservatives (there's just aren't very many of them!!).

So, imagine my surprise when I read this, from Fenton's book--you wouldn't believe how critical he is of the * administration, which is why I put credence in what he says (the bolding is my own because I think this is important for us to know):

Venezuela's Hugo Chavez openly boasts of his allegiance to Castro, and his contempt for U.S. policy. His goons regularly intimidate and kill people from the opposition. Venezuela ranks as one of the world's top oil exporters--in 2004 it was the world's fourth largest after Saudi Arabia, Russia, and Norway, and a prime furnisher to the open market. The Venezuelan news media often report that Chavez gives sanctuary to both Colombian guerillas and al Queda operatives. Let me repeat that: The leader of Venezuela gives sanctuary to al Queda. He also helps subsidize the Cuban economy with his oil revenue. Yet, beyond a few cautious murmurs of disapproval from the State Department, Chavez has gotten a free pass. Could it be because he has also given Texas-based oil giants such as Chevron-Texaco massive, lucrative contracts?
(This was published in March of 2005; I think Chavez has taken more flak since then.)

I really don't know enough about Castro to criticize Chavez's support for him. Health care for everyone is good, a crushing totalitarian regime not so much. But about the rest: Forty-eight hours ago, I would have been upset with Jon Stewart for criticizing Cindy and/or Chavez. Now I suspect that Cindy was simply as naive as I was until last night about what the other side of Chavez seems to be. Jon said that people go to jail for four years for criticizing Chavez. Well, that's worse even than *, so far. So I wish that Cindy hadn't had her picture taken with Chavez, and I feel like a moron for not knowing the dark side of Chavez's regime... except that, as Tom Fenton points out, it's not as though the media were actually reporting foreign news.

I think that if we are seen to be fans of guys who suppress dissent, we make ourselves look foolish. I also think Jon was trying to save us from that.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[renate]

88. Are you serious? Me a Republican? Oh God NOOOOO

The answer to that is so totally no I cannot possibly hope to express my horror at your accusation. So I hope you're just being silly. If I were even related by blood to a Republican I would fling myself off a bridge (Full disclosure: I have a second-degree relative who was Republican two years ago, but I bet even he has changed his mind by now. All my other uncles, aunts, cousins, parents, children, and spouse are firmly in the blue column. Can you tell I'm genuinely distressed by your suggestion?)

Tom Fenton was the CBS London bureau chief who, in his fabulous above-referenced book "Bad News," blows the lid off how "news" is reported and how and why it has become entertainment rather than information. He is a well-respected newsman in the mold of Edward R. Murrow. I was a fan even before I read his book and found out that he was also a man who speaks truth to power (and criticizes the hell out of Brokaw, Jennings, and even his colleague Dan Rather, but not, because he is intelligent, Walter Cronkite)
(Walter :loveya:).

Seriously, two days ago I would have said "Hugo Chavez is da man." Now, however, I would humbly and respectfully suggest you read Fenton's book, which as I said is very very critical of * and his spin machine, before you doubt his words.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oasis]

74. "The Venezuelan news media often report" Chavez is "Bad News".

Are they right or left wing? If you know.

[balzac]

75. Chavez is supported by the left

The poor, the Venezuelans descended of slaves, natives. Chavez is opposed by people that Bush funds. Bush tried and failed to topple Chavez, because he was too popular, they had to set him free!

Don't fall for the lies. Lots of people here try to smear Chavez in various ways. Just remember, Cindy Sheehan and Harry Belafonte support him. Bush tried to topple him with a coup. Do the math!

[oasis]

78. I know that the Chavez is a leftie. The poster who praised Tom Fenton

didn't seem to know whether the Venezulean media was right or left. If I recall correctly the media is run by corporate bosses who want to take Chavez down. At least that was the case during the time of the attempted coup.

Another point. If Chavez is such a ruthless dictator, why would he put up with a press that spewed right wing propaganda against him?

[balzac]

82. He's the democratically elected leader

And a survivor of two Bush-sponsored coup attempts.

[oasis]

95. Bu..bu..but Bush claims that democratically elected governments can

do no harm. So what's his problem with Chavez? (besides Chavez having Chimpy's oil).

[renate]

93. that was me who praised Tom Fenton

Oh, crap. It really is such a good book, so despairing of the state that network "news" is in today, and the last thing I would have wanted was to turn people against it.

No, I do not know whether the Venezuelan media is right or left. My God, there are only so many hours in the day.

My honest-to-goodness point in quoting Tom Fenton's book is that I do not want us to look stupid if Chavez jails people for dissent. MY GOD. Even in this country we haven't gotten to this point yet. So if there is any truth to Jon Stewart's criticism, I think we should be at least flippin' AWARE of it. That's Jon Stewart, by the way, not Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly.

Sheesh. My sole intent is to try to keep us from looking stupid. And for my pains I get accused of being a Republican. Which really hurts, by the way.

edited to add: Even without yet being reminded of certain abuses, I concede that I misspoke when I said we haven't yet gotten to the point of jailing people for dissent. However, people aren't--yet--thrown in jail for the mere act of dissent, they're accused of something else first. It's a very very very very very very very small, basically invisible distinction, but at least it's not right out there on the books as being an imprisonable offense. (Maybe the secretive nature of it here is worse, actually.) But I would hate for "dissent = jail" to be the automatic law of the land as an author who has researched offenses on both sides of the political spectrum says it is.

Basically, my point was that although Chavez is no *, he's no Gandhi, either.

[oasis]

103. Wasn't me who accused you of being GOP. Chavez turns off plenty of DUers.

Picture if you can, Chavez and Bush as opposing mafia Dons. If Chavez plays nice by showing weakness, he gets crushed and the Bush family takes over his territory.

As far as DUers "looking stupid" for picking Don Chavez over Don Bush, I could care less.

The Democratic leadership will never voice support of Chavez.

[balzac]

107. It was me that accused Renate of being a Republican

He quoted a book which accuses Chavez of supporting Al Qaeda. The book was printed in 2005. Everyone that Bush wants to attack is first accused of being a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer.

This book is so fresh, and he shows such zeal in selling it to us. His denial of being a Republican was lacking in feeling, if you ask me.

As they say, Renate "doth protest too much".


Shit, now I know this book is Republican TRIPE! Renate, maybe you've got the names Republican and Democrat mixed up. Democrats are the people who don't like Bush. You must be thinking of the wrong party.

Tom Fenton gets fellated by Chris Matthews to sell his REPUBLICAN book! Read it here on the Freeper board:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1355455/posts

[oasis]

108. The "unofficial sequel to Bernard Goldberg's "the Liberal Bias'". Goldberg

is a rabid, right wing whacko. Fenton's "Bad News" an "eye opening book". I guess so.:puke:

[renate]

109. Read. The. Book. Before. You. Criticize. It.

I don't know what the hell these freepers are talking about because the book is damn good and absolutely critical of the ways news is all about entertainment and not about information. (However, please note the last post on that thread, which makes some sense. Probably someone from here, though apparently not you.)

This is stupid. You are seriously distressing me with your accusations. A person I don't even know is calling me a Republican and I am so agitated I can't even think straight. It's ridiculous.

This is so not worth it. The book is good. I am not a Republican. Not one molecule of my DNA is Republican. Not one molecule of the air I breathe is Republican. PLEASE JUST READ THE DAMN BOOK BEFORE YOU CALL ME NAMES. Or look up my previous posts, for God's sake.

I honestly don't understand why one criticism of an icon on the left is met with this kind of anger and ugliness. I just have to believe that your heart is in the right place but you have really, really, really hurt me.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oasis]

112. You can't go around DU calling folks freepers and GOP especially

multiple times. In post 101 you said I asked a dumb question, which was rude but not against DU rules.

BTW, I already knew the answers to the questions that I asked both the anti-Chavez posters. I was being sarcastic, which is allowed.

As far as Chavez is concerned, we are on the same side, but we must follow the rules of the board when confronting "suspected" freeps.

[Swamp Rat]

113. Wanna see something rude?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=311245&mesg_id=311292

[oasis]

115. The hazmat people failed to evacuate him after his meth lab exploded.

:crazy:I would be bitter too.

[Swamp Rat]

120. LOL!

It's just plain weird! :silly:

... not that I don't do weird things. :D

[balzac]

117. It was a dumb question.

Are we really on the same side? This guy I accused of being a republican is putting the hard sell on everyone for a very right-wing book. Far-right propaganda, accusing Chavez of supporting Al Qaeda.

You asked something like "What could Venezuela possibly be afraid of to buy all those weapons?"

It was a dumb question, because the US is breathing down the neck of Latin America and has been for a long long time. Reagan funded, trained and equiped death squads. Multiple countries were turned into dictatorships, natives were slaughtered, even catholic priests and nuns were slaughtered and/or raped by these terrorists.

Who is Hugo Chavez afraid of? Only the country that tried to remove him with two coup attempts. Only the country which assassinated democratically elected Allende and removed democratically elected Aristide from Haiti.

It was a dumb question.

[oasis]

119. See post #114. (n/t)

[balzac]

121. I got ya.

Your question was intended to lead out that response. If it had been a sincere question, it would have revealed a very uninformed person.

[oasis]

125. Thanks for the link on your post #107. It was a great help in identifying

Fenton's political lean.

Gotta get some sleep now. So long. :hi:

[Bridget Burke]

160. Is Tom Fenton an expert on Venezuela?

Surely, his book contains references. What are his sources on Chavez?

[ugarte]

85. Venezuelan news media are totally owned by the oligarchy

They bash Chavez at every opportunity and are very much still in business, despite the misinformation that some here are spreading. I know many venezolanos, and I can promise you there is a very active opposition press in Venezuela.

[oasis]

91. Thanks. The poster who praised Tom Fenton's work could possibly

benefit from doing a little more research.

[rman]

124. Venezuelan news media are all owned by Chavez opponents

Bush to has said Venezuela harbours terrorists.

Chavez has not given massive, lucrative contracts to any oil corporation;

Venezuela gives Exxon ultimatum
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4544390.stm

Venezuela has given the world's biggest oil company, ExxonMobil, until the end of this year to enter a joint venture with the state.

Failure to do so will almost certainly result in Exxon losing its oil field concessions in the country.

Venezuela's socialist government has now signed new agreements with almost all foreign petroleum companies.

-snip-

In addition, the companies which have signed the new contracts - such as Chevron, BP, Shell and Total - will in future be presented with much higher tax bills by the government.
-snip-

[seabeyond]

173. wow renate, i dont know that it is true. i have done some checking

on chavez, but not enough that is for sure. having read many different posts and opinions it just leaves me to do some more investigation. but this certainly would be something to be concerned about. not that mainstream dem will be painted with chavez, they just arent not going to embrace chavez as the dem people seem to be doing. thanks for this information though. always good to open our world to all info

[killbotfactory]

179. That is the biggest pile of horseshit i've ever read

Seriously, Al Qaeda? Al fucking Qaeda? You do know the knews media, pretty much every public station besides the state owned one, is run in a manner that would make Fox News blush, don't you? They openly advocated a coup against Chavez, manipulated footage of protestors to support it, and then when he was in exile, laughed while they talked to the coup leaders about how they did it!

Watch The Revolution Must Be Televised. It's essential viewing.

chomskytorrents.org

[High Plains]

83. Wow, it's a twofer bashfest: Cindy and Chavez at the same time!

How much fun is this?

Actually, this Chavez stuff has been discussed ad nauseum. I am slightly puzzled by the ability of a South American elected official to arouse such enmity around here. He arguably doesn't have a perfect human rights record. But it's not bad, given political conditions there. And it's not bad compared to most countries. It's not bad compared to the United States.

edit: to include an indefinite article

[Lars39]

87. Seen this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2082212&mesg_id=2082212

[High Plains]

92. When you find yourself agreeing with Rumsfield

you might want to think again.

[Lars39]

96. Pardon?

I was pointing out his comments to underscore this admin's anti-Chavez propaganda.

[High Plains]

98. Right. That wasn't directed at you, Lars, but at the posters on this

thread whose comments resemble Rumsfeld's.

I think we're on the same side on this one.

[Lars39]

100. 's fine.

Past my bedtime.:hi:

[T Town Jake]

116. Jon Stewart is right...

...and only a Marxian nut job or lip-smacking (reference to a denizen of a particular site DELETED) could possibly state otherwise.

Chavez's raw anti-Americanism is nothing most genuine liberals, including myself, want anything to do with - and those whom gibber and slobber and spit otherwise are either deluding themselves, or have the scent of a certain Fresno-based discussion forum radiating around their posts.

[balzac]

118. Outrageous!

"Chavez's raw anti-Americanism is nothing most genuine liberals, including myself, want anything to do with"

Chavez is giving fuel to poor Americans at a 40% discount. He offered what he could during Hurricane Katrina. He is anti-Bush because Bush tried to remove him with a coup, and Pat Robertson called for his assassination.

You have some nerve! Just outrageous.

I'm glad I was hear to put the smack-down on so many lies tonight. What an outrage.

[T Town Jake]

123. And what a "smack-down" it was...

:rofl:

Fresno, much? I'll just bet you do...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

138. Either that or

you're just pulling stuff right out of your ass. I think it's the latter. You yourself sound like you're frothing at the mouth while typing.

[1932]

180. When Chavez praises Americans as the people of MLK and Cesar Chavez

and then gives fuel aid to poor Americans, do you call that "raw anti-Americanism"?

When he used to get along well with Clinton, was that a problem for you?

[ScreamingMeemie]

127. One...she is a private citizen and Two...Jon Stewart is a comedian.

:hi:

[wndycty]

136. She seeks attention. . .

. . .I SUPPORT CINDY, but now she has put herself out there so, we cannot be outraged when a comedian makes fun of her.

[ScreamingMeemie]

151. Exactly. She can do as she wishes. I'm grateful for what she does for

us, and I expected Stewart to say something about that wouldn't be very flattering. :hi:

[Tarc]

130. A lot of complaining about nothing

I like Chavez, love Stewart, and am fairly ambivalent about Sheehan. Democrats, liberals, etc...should be the ones that know how to laugh at jokes and go along with them, even if the joke is at their expense at times. Don't be like a stiff-necked Republican.

[Cocoa]

131. it depends how funny it was

if it was funny then it was warranted.

[Quixote1818]

163. Thats usually my rule too.

nt

[LincolnMcGrath]

132. Poorly framed poll questions. IMHO

[jane_pippin]

134. And they say liberals have no sense of humor!

Oh.

Wait....

*sigh*

Here is my standard response:

Jon Stewart is a comedian, not a puppet for the left. Some are in for one rude awakening should we finally get a Democrat in the White House.

(And, for the record, I don't claim to know enough about Chavez to have an opinion on whether it was right or wrong, (or somewhere in between), for Cindy to go there. I will say that it's her right to say what she wants, and that I support 100%. I also 100% support Stewart's right to make fun of whatever he wants. These ideas are not at odds with each other.)

[wndycty]

135. Thank you very much Jane. . .

:kick:

[Catchawave]

139. Going to agree with Jane too....

Well stated m'dear :hi:

[Cults4Bush]

141. A Dem does not equal a Liberal not by a longshot and certainly not at DU,

but other than that yes you are quite right and I agree.

It is a bit silly for a comedian no matter how politically derived to be expected to have his facts straight. I keep telling people as well that he is not Liberal, he is a moderate and his Iraq war stance is the same as most moderates (ie we have to stay and fix stuff no matter how many die).

He could have had Cindy on a long time ago but he wont put her on, because he disagrees with her and he could really lose a chunk of his audience if the interview went badly.

FWIW I gleaned some of this info froma friend that used to work with him a little bit, and I realize I could be offbase... this is just my overall impression.

[NYCGirl]

144. Stewart won't have Sheehan on the show because he disagrees with her?

What crap. He has plenty of guests on that he surely disagrees with.

[Cults4Bush]

145. self delete dupe

[Cults4Bush]

146. did you read what I said at the end?

Did you read my reasoning?

Jons demographics is largely made up of Liberals (not Dems but Liberals) most Liberals support Cindy to the point of heartbreak and lets face it are more emotionally vested in her than Jons half hour of comedy. If his interview goes sour and it is blatantly obvious that he disgarees with her on the things that most Liberals do agree with her on he could concievably hurt his audience. Its a lot different scenario than having O'liely on.

I honestly can't think of any other reason why he wouldn't have had her on his show by now, that coupled with my tenous "inside scource" (I say that humorously) info led me to that conclusion.

I said I was presuming this all basically, I didnt pretend that I was 100% right and I had a very obvious caveat at the end stating as such. So I dare say your response to my post is what is crap, I dont know how else I could have said what I had to say while still being reasonable. You oversimplified what I said and took it out of the context I had layed it in.

FWIW I love Jon, he cracks me up at least two nights out of the week and wastes my time the other two, and thats better than average. I however hold no fantasy illusions about him, and that whilst being a comedian he is also in business for himself. He is also as I said a moderate, so I have no illusions on where he stands on Iraq. Which was another reason why I came to my conclusion wrong as it may be. He is not a Liberal he is a moderate Dem and that was pretty much my point, he plays to the Liberals from a moderate perspective.

I wasnt saying he doesnt have "plenty of guests on the surely disagrees with", I was saying that I "believe" the reason he hasn't had Cindy on is because of what she as an individual could due to his demo if things went bad in the course of the admittance of his disagreement with her. Which would probably have to come up considering the format of the show and Jons own personality type.

Does that clear everything up?

[NYCGirl]

148. Sorry, I guess I just should have agreed with you that you may be offbase.

I was pointing out, obviously not too clearly, that Stewart's political affiliations or beliefs have little to do with who his bookers schedule on the show. He's interviewed many a right-wing gasbag — and if he's not sufficiently tough on them, gets his head handed to him here on DU regularly.

[G_j]

137. I've hugged Cindy also

hope that doesn't hurt our cause.

btw, she hugs everybody

[durrrty libby]

142. Cindy has a powerful message

She just had to stand there and state it.

The perception of her aligning herself with “the out there crowd” distracts from that message, and hurts her case.

It’s not fair, but it is reality.

[Bridget Burke]

162. Thanks for "the out there crowd"....

We're getting tired of "Far Left" & "Loony Left."

The talking points remain identical, but the vocabulary variation does relieve the boredom. Just a bit.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

140. Was it funny? n/t

[Benfea]

143. Yep, he was right to do that.

While there are admirable things about Chavez (speaking out against Bush, helping the American poor, etc.), he's also a dictator who actively suppresses dissent within his own country.

[Montauk6]

147. I knew Chavez was an enemy of, say, Pat Robertson but I wasn't aware that

he was an official enemy of the US. So, why would hugging him hurt her credibility.

I want Cindy for President.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

149. President? That is just ridiculous.

Vice President, definitely. :evilgrin:

[Montauk6]

152. Nope, I want to see her as Commander-In-Chief

You won't take away my dream THAT easily, young fella...

[Freddie Stubbs]

153. Did it get laughs from the audience?

If so, absolutley. His job is to entertain, not persuade or inform.

[GreenPartyVoter]

156. Why is she only allowed to take issue with one subject? Do people think

the "little lady" can't handle more than one situation at a time?

[Marie26]

158. Cindy can do whatever she wants,

and Stewart can say whatever he wants. Chavez isn't the dangerous dictator Bush makes him out to be, but IMO he isn't the socialist hero that liberals see. So I think criticism of Chavez is definitely warranted. At the same time, it doesn't really seem fair to criticize Cindy Sheehan for hurting the cause by meeting w/him. Cindy Sheehan isn't a politician; she's not really obliged to represent anyone's goal but her own.

[derby378]

159. Chavez is complicated - not as much as Saddam, but still complicated

He's done good things and bad things alike for Venezuela. Personally, I like him, and I don't fault Cindy for liking him, either.

But he has ordered some of his political opponents to be tortured. Not a good thing at all.

[SidDithers]

161. It's not criticism, it's comedy...nt

Sid

[clarknyc]

164. No.

It really had nothing to do with the t-shirt story and was 3 or 4 days late. It was an after the fact cheap shot to attempt to be "balanced" or something. I thought it was weak, at best.

[jeannicot]

168. It's dangerous to back ANYONE 100%

this applies to both Cindy Sheehan and Jon Stewart.

[1932]

178. What's dangerous about backing Cindy Sheehan?