Kiss your computer jobs goodbye! H1-B caps may end.

[LiberalEsto]

This was posted on Raw Story.

What it means is that people who work in the computer field or other high tech positions will soon be easily replaced by a flood low-paid techies from other nations, such as India. These H1-B visas are currently limited to 65,000 a year. They have already taken away thousands upon thousands of computer industry jobs, and flattened wages for those who have still managed to stay in the field. My husband is a DBA and says his company is replacing American workers with Indians to the point that there are hardly any non-Indians left in the IT department.

If you look at what's happening in the auto industry, IT, and so many other fields that provide middle-class incomes, it isn't hard to see that this Misadministration is hell-bent on destroying what's left of the middle class so the CEOs can pad their salaries even more.

"UPDATE 1-Bush calls for lifting cap on special H-1B visas

MAPLEWOOD, Minn., Feb 2 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush on Thursday called on Congress to raise the cap on the so-called H-1B visas that allow companies to fill high tech jobs with foreign workers.

"The problem is, is that Congress has limited the number of H-1B visas," Bush said in a speech.

"I think it's a mistake not to encourage more really bright folks who can fill the jobs that are having trouble being filled in America, to limit their number. So I call upon Congress to be realistic and reasonable to raise that cap," he said.

High-tech businesses have pushed Congress to increase the number of such visas, currently capped at 65,000 per year."

http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-02-02T190616Z_01_N02193839_RTRIDST_0_BUSH-VISAS-UPDATE-1.XML

[WI_DEM]

1. I wonder if that is why every time I call support

I get somebody I can barely understand and have to keep asking, "what?"

[unblock]

11. interestingly, they outsource support, but not sales.

hmmmmmm.

for sales, where the person needs to know little beyond how to take an order and have enough command of english to understand a 16-digit credit card number, for THAT you get a native english speaking from omaha or peoria.

for support, where the person needs to be able to understand complex specific problems, perform diagnosis over the phone, relay test, research problems, and follow up and so on, for THAT you get the guy for whom english is a third language and who mostly reads from 100% scripted flow charts.

hmmmmmm.

[SoCalDem]

16. I was ready to slit my wrists a while back.

My laptop keyboard died, and "Paula" in Bangladesh kept asking me to "please type (whatever she told me) into the browser window".. I told her about 5 times that I couldn;t TYPE anything....Then she said.. "reboot and hit the F-something key"..again HELLOOOOO keyboard does not work...period..

It took me over an HOUR of this nonsense to finally get the message across that it did not work..at all.. which is what I told her within the first 30 seconds of the call..

A guy came out 2 days later with a new keyboard and installed it in 5 minutes.

[Ohio Joe]

17. It was probably wicked frustrating at the time but...

A bunch of us here at the office are laughing our butts off at that story :)

[SoCalDem]

22. the kicker to the story?

The "M" key on the new keyboard quit working, and after two unsuccessful attempts in "Dell Phone Robot Hell" I just put the damned thing in a drawer and bought a Toshiba Satellite laptop..

I have an extended wrranty on the dell so the other day I called again, and apparently "Andy" understood that an "M" key is necessary, so they are again going to replace the keyboard..this afternoon..

Yay for Andy in Bangladesh..

[Ohio Joe]

28. hmmm

If you don't already, try getting a can of compressed air to spray in the cracks of your keyboard (I do it about once a week). I've found it to really extend the life of my keyboards. If this is an actual defect in the keyboard issue, try talking them into replacing it with a different kind.

[peacebaby3]

32. LOL! I do get a kick out of the very English/American names that they all

have!!!

It's really hilarious. I'm sure Paula, Andy, Mike, Pete, and Dave are very popular names in Bangladesh/India!

I'm not an expert though, so I could be wrong.

[0007]

96. You're right. I've spent time in Norther India and had no problem

understanding Indian, but I'll be damned if I can understand John or Paula from New Delhi where I've stayed coming and going on my travels in the country and never had a problem with english speaking Indians.

[TheFarseer]

54. my keyboard quit working once

I managed to download an onscrean keyboard where you type with the mouse and that got me by for a while. I can't remember if I fixed it by downloading something else or buying a new one, but the point is that onscrean keyboard was pretty wild :)

[JohnyCanuck]

58. A word to the wise re. the Toshiba

If you ever find that you have an intermittent power problem when connected to the AC external power source, it's most likely caused by a flaky connection where the AC power cord plugs into the computer. You can test this by wiggling the power connection at the computer and seeing if the blue or green external power connection indicator light flashes on and off as you wiggle. If it's still under the warranty, call the support line right away and arrange to get if fixed. If you wait until the connection is broken completely and and it won't work at all, Toshiba will say the problem was due to damage caused by customer abuse or misuse and refuse to cover it, even if you've got an extended warranty plan. The fix involves replacing the motherboard and can run upwards of $500. The voice of experience has spoken.

[Greyhound]

85. I've had much trouble with GMAC and they've outsourced all

of their customer support to India, I've been "helped" by 6 Heathers in a row. Do you ever wonder why everything (tech related) is so fucked up? :argh:

[peacebaby3]

27. Oh..how I can relate!!! My modem wouldn't work but for a few minutes

after you rebooted it so I had to call tech support. I called 17 times...that's right 17 calls over 2 days time! I had to take a break after the first 10 or so and try again the next day before I committed suicide. My average hold time was 30-45 minutes each call, BTW.

They gave me the same instructions each time. I tried to explain to them that I had already done this about 17 times and it still didn't work, but they would say ,"ok, Ms. ****. Now if you will type in "blah, blah, blah." and I swear to God it was the same instructions!

Somehow on call # 18, I got a woman and I have no idea where she was from but her accent was different and she actually fixed the problem.

It's horrible...just horrible!

I feel your pain!!

Edit: for really stupid typos.

[TheFarseer]

55. one time I called tech support

I was waiting for a long time so I put it on speaker phone and started reading a book. I waited for an hour and a half before someone said, "Thank you for calling whatever, my name is whatever, how can I help" So I start telling him the problem and he says, "hello? hello?" and hangs up. Speaker phone wasn't working!! I was so pissed!

[ContraBass Black]

69. 5 Minutes to install a keyboard?

That must have been some fancy dandy thing with loads of extra features.

[SoCalDem]

70. He just popped out the old one, and put in the new one.

I wasn't behind him with a stopwatch, but he was very quick:P

[ContraBass Black]

73. I usually do it in one. Hire me next time.

:P

[RoyGBiv]

94. Not exactly right ...

Depending on the industry you're talking about, there are policies based in legal provisions that the salesperson must understand and for which he or she will be held accountable. Out-sourced salespeople can't be held accountable in quite the same way, leaving the company itself to bear the brunt of any infractions for which they are caught. There's an irony here. The very thing that makes out-sourcing sales difficult makes out-sourcing support seem beneficial to the number crunchers. There are no laws requiring honesty in technical support, and if your tech support person causes you to fry your motherboard, for example, only that support person can be held accountable ... and since he's in India.

In some businesses, selling can actually be a rather technical process requiring lots of problem solving skills. As a broad example, so-called consultative sales, the current rage in the sales industry, is in fact based on problem solving and being able to work without a script.

Also, naturally, people feel more comfortable buying something from a person they perceive as similar to them. Companies care about that because that's what generates the revenue. A lot of companies don't give a crap about support because that is, in the short term, a revenue drain. In the modern age, CEOs only try to keep companies profitable as long as it takes them to guarantee their golden parachute and sell the company off to someone else who then has to rebuild it. Long-term customer loyalty is not a going concern with this companies.

I'm not really disagreeing here with what I think is your overall point, just offering a somewhat different perspective.

[Maru Kitteh]

100. That's because they care more about selling you the shit than

actually helping you use it once they've made the sale.

[LiberalEsto]

43. Not really. American call center jobs were sent overseas.

H1-B tech workers come to the US to take away American tech jobs.
Americans can't win.

[CornField]

61. Yup -- and he always tells me his name is "Greg" or "Ronald"

I don't mess with it anymore.

ring... ring...

"Alow? Sank ewe fah kalring tea-kin-cal sah-port-tah"

"uhmmm... I realize you need to do a job, but I'm from the Midwest and phoetically challenged. I need a technical support representative who doesn't have such a thick accent."

"ah-key"

20 minutes later

"Alow? Sank ewe fah kalring tea-kin-cal sah-port-tah"

"As I explained to the other gentleman, I have difficulty understanding foreign accents. Please direct my call to your supervisor or to a tech support agent who does not speak with a thick accent."

----

This usually goes on for quite some time, but eventually you do get a person you can understand. Since I'm typically phoning a 1-800 number, I have no problem with them using their dime in order for me to be better served. (For those who do not have a 1-800 number, I leave a request for someone without an accent to phone me back.)

[Crazy Dave]

2. No exaggeration and not being racial but....

three weeks ago I called my ISP to do some upgrading and the representative could hardly understand me and naturally, I couldn't understand him very well. Granted, his english is better than my Hindu and he was certainly more polite than your average American customer service rep. but it took twice as long to place the order and to verify, then double verify that everything was correct and not misunderstood.

[Ohio Joe]

7. That was probably

Outsourced to India and not a case for the H1B visa.

[Crazy Dave]

13. True

I'm also beginning to notice that I talk to a lot of people in Canada for customer service. No language barrier there but how would that be cheaper than people here stateside?

[Ohio Joe]

15. Canada ?

Interesting, I've not had that happen to me yet. I'm not to up on the economicas in Canada but I expect that if corporations are doing it, they are making a profit off of it.

[JohnyCanuck]

31. Here's some info on a Canadian computer help desk

I know someone who was works for a big well-known international IT contractor. He is on the help desk at a call centre here in Canada providing support for a major laptop manufacturer. From the Canadian call centre they support the customer base in Canada and the US and he estimates about 90% of the call volume is from the US customer base and only about 10% or so from the Canadian customers.

Employment is on a contract basis for the first year (i.e. no benefits) and starting wages were $14/hr going to $17/hr after 3 months. After one year they offered the possibility that, if they feel like it and your performance warranted it, the contractor might take you on as a full time employee with the typical benefit package (dental, retirement plans etc) but rate of pay would remain the same as whatever they were paying the contract employees. As a regular employee, there would also be a chance for promotion to a team leader or to the level 2 help desk (which took the calls level 1 could not resolve).

I just talked to this guy quite recently and he says there have been some major shakeups in the last few weeks. All the team leaders are back to taking level 1 calls from customers instead of training/coaching and dealing with management or supervisory type issues, and a big chunk of the contract workers were told they weren't needed any more and not to bother coming back in. Now there are rumours floating around the call centre that their help desk is going to be moved to the Philippines.

[SoCalDem]

56. National health care provided makes a lower wage possible

:)

[Crazy Dave]

60. That's an EXCELLENT point and....

...I'm surprised it didn't occur to me. I argued this point with others on here a few weeks ago about how much of a disadvantage automakers here were compared to the other developed nations that export automobiles. Plus a healthier and happier workforce too as I'm sure half their paycheck doesn't go towards insurance premiums and the other half of that going towards deductibles and prescriptions that the insurance won't cover.

[FloridaPat]

3. Kissed my computer job goodby two years ago. Same with friends

in computing. Getting real tired of seeing Indians on all those state and federal projects.

[Greyhound]

86. And have you ever applied to one of the Indian owned shops?

They don't hire non-Indians, period. You will probably see one white guy in the sales dept., no asians, hispanics, blacks, whites, or women, but that's OK Hillary says it's good for us.

[mattclearing]

4. Let the immigrant-bashing and isolationism-touting begin!

:eyes:

[Crazy Dave]

8. I sure hope I don't sound that way because....

for tech support and other important issues, a language barrier shouldn't be considered a matter of doing business.
I just don't think it's practical and there is a lot of talent here stateside.

[mattclearing]

18. Both of those ignore the money issue.

A language barrier is easily tolerated at a difference of $10,000+ a year.

[Bridget Burke]

9. I have no problem with immigrants who get the same rights as we have

They tend to want good jobs at which they will be treated well. They will not be indentured to their employers, as holders of these visas are.

Of course, the remarks about people on tech lines who have "accents" indicate the usual xenophobia. Those folks are still in India & not getting paid very well. They have the jobs because fat-cat US corporate types decided to send them overseas.

[Crazy Dave]

14. Like I said

Their English is sure better than my Hindu. :)

[mattclearing]

19. Well said. n/t

[lukasahero]

25. Agreed.

'Specially them "Indians". :eyes:

[LiberalEsto]

37. Wait a minute! How is it fair that someone studied hard

in the US, got a job in computers, and worked their way up, only to be laid off because their company found it far cheaper to bring in foreign tech workers who earn far less? Many of these H1-B visa people live in crowded dorms in order to survive in the US on their tiny salaries.

Congress should not be helping American citizens lose their jobs so corporations can make bigger profits with foreign workers. How is it fair that an American may be paying off a big student loan for their computer science degree, while someone in another country, who may have gotten a free college education, comes here to take their job?

[Ohio Joe]

42. Crowded Dorms ?

I've worked with literaly thousands of people with H1B visas over the last 10 years, spanning 30 different states (my company had contracts all over and I went from site to site) and I have never heard of this. Not once, not from anyone.

[LiberalEsto]

45. My husband works in a huge IT department in Wash. DC

The H1-B workers at his company are consultants who work for a huge Indian corporation called Tata. The "Tatas," as they are called, live in dorm-style housing in Maryland that is furnished by the Tata company.
This is what they tell my husband. This way they can save up much of their salaries for their 5 years here, and go back to India and live very well.

Here's a link to Tata. I doubt they will mention the dorms on their web site.
http://www.tata.com/

[Ohio Joe]

47. I'm familiar with Tata

I've worked with many from the compan and perhaps in that location they do that but I feel confident that this is not a common practice.

[Misunderestimator]

48. They may live that way to save money.... but it does not mean they are not

paid well. I am familiar with Tata... and I know that the consultants that are brought here are paid well, though Tata may be one of the least desirable as far as wages go. Many of them live frugally so that they can save all of the money they make here, since it translates to much more back home in India, where they intend to return. The consultants I knew all lived in their own homes and apartments... no dormitories that I ever heard about. It wasn't in DC though, where I suppose it makes a lot of sense for the company to provide them affordable housing.

Plenty of other companies hire Indian workers than just Indian consulting companies like Tata. And there are Indian consulting companies here that also hire American workers. There is definitely a difference in the wages between Indian workers and American workers. But it is NOT so huge a difference that they have to live communally (unless they choose to).

All that said... the cap should remain. US corporations WILL take advantage of it.

[Ohio Joe]

50. More good points

I agree with and was aware of your points, I should have been more detailed. Thanks.

[pilgrimsoul]

83. Isn't Tata the company mentioned on NPR this a.m.?

There was this heartbreaking story reported about an Indian steel company putting tribal Indians off of land they had worked for centuries to built a steel plant, and police had been used to evict them. I think they said the police had killed 12 of the protesters. India is becoming an economic superpower, but at a horrible price.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

104. Are you sure they are here on H-1Bs? Sounds more like L-1B

Hi, I'm an immigration paralegal for employment immigration and H, L, E, O, P, etc. visas are my bread and butter. H-1Bs require that a U.S.-based company sponsor the alien. H-1Bs are 'specialty occupation' visas which can go to those in jobs that only someone with at least a bachelor's degree (or foreign equivalent) or above can do. L-1Bs are intracompany transferees who possess 'specialized knowledge' in something very specific. It is probably more likely that these workers are L-1Bs. The maximum duration in L-1B status is 5 years, while the maximum duration in H-1B is 6 years.

Let me also point out that the H-1B quota includes not only the jobs in IT, but any other college-level job and, believe it or not, fashion models.

[mattclearing]

46. You are right.

You are entitled to make more money than people who will do it for less just because you say so.

[LiberalEsto]

59. Why should my elected representatives give away jobs

to people in other countries? I pay the taxes here for the schools, infrastructure, etc. that make it possible for the corporations to do business here. I don't get free college education, unlike people in many foreign countries.

So we should go work at McDonalds so our former employers can get rich bringing in low-wage tech workers to take our jobs?

So we should struggle to pay our student loans and never own a home, because we can't get decent-paying jobs?

So we can struggle to pay our taxes to build the roads, traffic lights, police departments, etc. that these corporations use, while getting tax cuts left and right?

[mattclearing]

64. Because it helps us to compete with other countries by lowering

the costs of goods and services. Capitalism is the product of pitting organizations and individuals in direct competition. This isn't news. There are no work entitlements in a capitalist society.

[LiberalEsto]

66. Screw capitalism.

It doesn't benefit anyone except the filthy rich.


I don't want my tax dollars subsidizing a Congress and executive branch that gives away our jobs to other countries.

[Greyhound]

88. BS, all it lowers is our standard of living. The companies do not

"pass on the savings" through lower prices, they just pocket the difference. So explain how this is helping anybody here?

[Greyhound]

87. Well, once you're willing to give me your job, I'll quit bitching.

It's awfully easy to say how horrible we are while you're still making a living. If you've been through it I'll listen, otherwise, stfu.

[Jim Sagle]

107. Go back to sleep.

[SoCalDem]

5. "...are having trouble being filled in America..."

Gee Georgie, why not just try more education for the "folks" here who are working two shit jobs, Just to get by, because they can't afford COLLEGE OR ADVANCED TRAINING?

OH WAIT..

I see now.. The bosses don;t "really" want to hire people who want more than $20K a year..

[Ohio Joe]

10. The issue is even deeper

Try finding a place to learn mainframe. Where I work we hire people with various IT degrees and none of hem know the first thing about mainframe, we have to completely train them.

[RagAss]

81. I hear ya...I'm 20 years on the mainframe....and I'll be 20 more...

nobody teaches it anymore....I'll be on my death bed fixing IMS programs.....why?...because it would take 50 years to convert every mainframe program in this country on to another platform.....

[LondonReign2]

29. It is worse than that

It isn't even that people need more training-- THERE ANY PLENTY OF AMERICANS TO FILL THESE JOBS.

It is just another Bush lie.

[SoCalDem]

39. for $20k a year? sharing an apartment with 4 other people?

These people they import are little more than indentured servants with stars in their eyes.
They will endure any hardship here, because it's less than the hardship they have at home, and even if it's a hard life here, they ARE in America.

They will try desperately to meet someone (and most will because they are usually young and single) and marry a citizen, and they will stay here and be better off than they would have been at home.

This is the path of EVERY imigrant.. It's WHY they come.

Bosses LOVE these people. They don't complain, they don't call in sick, they don't ask for time off, they'll work any shift, they'll work any overtime...and they'll do it for a lot less than a citizen can afford to work for.


It's a sad thing too..because everyone's getting taken advantage of.. American workers are being priced out of our own markets....by other Americans.. for what? so fatcats can get more money.

[Ohio Joe]

49. As for those from India

I am aware of only one who married an American and that case was not to stay here (They went back to live in India when his H1B ran out). Most Indians still practice arranged marriages by their parents. They tend to stay here because a condition of getting an H1B is that you eventually need someone to sponsor you for a green card or you go back to your country of origin, so it has a built in way of getting to stay.

[LiberalEsto]

38. Exactly. There are thousands of unemployed tech workers

who haven't been able to find US jobs for years, thanks to H1-B visas. You tell me how these people can pay rent or mortgage, raise their families, pay off student loans, buy food, etc. on the $20,000 a year that H1-B worker will make doing their jobs. The H1-B workers are often housed in cheap dorms by their employers.

[Double T]

6. Another attempt by bush to lower the wage bar for American Workers........

more bushco patronage to the corrupt corporations of america.

[jsamuel]

12. "Actively working against America's interests since 1994."

[quiet.american]

20. What does this say about Bushco's plan for jobs for Americans?

So, what's supposed to happen to Americans who need jobs? Are we ALL to be relegated to slave wages at Wal-Mart? Is the whole country supposed to go to work for Burger King?

[LiberalEsto]

41. Don't forget McDonald's

Sam's Club, and all the other fast food joints.

[peacebaby3]

21. All I can tell you is that it is a waste of my time to try and call

support for my ISP. I have absolutely nothing against anybody from any country, but the fact is that they can't completely understand me nor can I completely understand them. It's painfully obvious that they are not really trained in computer technology and are reading from prepared text based on your question...go slightly off the common question or what they read you doesn't work and you are screwed!

The last call I made was to customer service and it was about the deregulation of phone lines and if my ISP would still be available to me since the monopoly that owns all of the phone lines around here will now have the choice of whether they lease them to anyone else (deregulation my butt...we will now have a monopoly if this goes into effect). You could have heard a pin drop on the other end! Of course they couldn't answer my question because they are not in the US so they have no idea what laws have been passed and how they will affect me as a user.

I'm actually pretty liberal on immigration issues, etc. but it is very frustrating when the person on the other end is not qualified to help you and I don't care in what country they reside.

[undeterred]

23. I worked with someone on a contract assignment who was

on an HB-1 visa in 8/2002. Very nice, quiet, smart guy from India. More than three years later he is still at the same assignment. Now he's married and his wife has a job under the same arrangements.

He is a C+ programmer, and so is his wife. At the time he was hired, there had to be hundreds of out of work C+ programmers in South Central Wisconsin.... but I guess they would have cost too much.

[WLKjr]

24. Wonderful, I spent 35K to get my A.S. and now this

sonuvabitch.

[lpbk2713]

26. Every time I hear news like this it makes me wonder .....

will there be anything left of this country three years from now?


BushCo keeps selling us out. Will the changes be irrevocable? Will it be too late?


I'd like to be optimistic but he could still do a hell of a lot of damage in three more years. He knows he doesn't really have to answer to anyone and that he won't be running for office again so what does he have to lose?

It won't be long before everyone is working two or three McJobs with no benefits.

[MadMaddie]

30. Where I work....

I work in the IT industry I won't say where but I am on the third floor of the building and if you throw a stone you won't hit a full time American employee. I am African American and I am careful about throwing the bigot race card out there but....most of the workers here are on visa's from India.

I don't know why the Democrat party is not using the repugs own weapons. It's about Americans finding jobs in America and not handing our jobs over to the lowest bidder. I am not faulting the foreign workers for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, however; if it is at the cost of US workers being unable to take care of their families-our priorities should be employing American workers.

sigh...I am listening the Beatles version of "Let it Be"....Whisper words of wisdom let it be...I am sad for the state America and our citizens....It seems that Bush and company only want Democracy for other countries not their own.....:dem:

[SoCalDem]

34. "One Hour WalMartinizing"?

As a country we only want CHEAP stuff.. cheap tvs, cheap cars, cheap food, cheap cheap..Cheap is a virtue..cheap is a religion.

The only way we can HAVE cheap, is to pay the people, who make the stuff we want to buy for cheap, lower and lower wages..

Mr Boss-man wants the MOST $$$ he can glomb onto IN HIS POCKETS.. Profits come FIRST for boss-man, so boss-man can't 'afford' to pay living wages to the people who make your cheap stuff or that cheap stuff would not be cheap anymore..

[lpbk2713]

44. BushCo definitely does not want a democracy.

They strive for a capitalistic oligarchy.


And they are getting closer to their goal all the time. Most democratic ideals will be outlawed before we know it.




And welcome to DU BTW.


:thumbsup:

[Bridget Burke]

51. Let me throw MY bigot race card.

The corporate people who MAKE these decisions are probably white. Probably white men--so that makes me a sexist. And they're probably Republican, to boot.

You have more in common with the Indian workers than either of you have with the owners. Yes, the people already here should get first crack at the jobs. But we need to be angry at the ones who made the mess.

[lukasahero]

53. Bless you! eom

[Starbucks Anarchist]

82. Thanks, Bridget.

I'm an American-born and raised Indian, but virtually all of my relatives came to this country from India, including my dad (a doctor) and my cousin (who works for Dell).

My cousin at Dell came here on an H1-B visa, but never had to live in a crowded apartment like some other people have claimed here. In fact, he and his wife (also from India) live in a nice home where they very recently welcomed their first child.

As far as outsourcing goes, I'm against it, but I don't hold anything against the Indians who end up with the jobs. And since I grew up hearing Indian accents, I have no problem understanding people from call centers.

[Maru Kitteh]

105. Nice for YOU that you can understand them but many/most of us CAN'T

I don't have anything against the Indians who came here either - I DO have something against Bush, the greedy corporations and the dipshit politicians who simply cannot give away our jobs fast enough.

I also have a problem with laying down two grand for a machine and not being able to get support from it in English that does not come from a flow chart.

[Greyhound]

90. Here's why the Democratic party won't/can't use this issue.

They started it, the H1-b and L-1 visa were both started under the Clinton administration and the beneficiaries of this looting need the campaign $ to keep their phony-baloney jobs.

[bluestateguy]

33. I remember when I was a kid

In the 80's, all our teachers told us that computers were where the jobs would be in the 21st century, that computer techs would never be unemployed, and they'd always be in demand.

[SoCalDem]

35. Teachers 150 years ago said the same thing about blacksmithing

:(

[Fla Dem]

36. This has been going on for a long time....where I worked in the mid

to late nineties, we used to have a huge programming department with in-house American programmers. But then the Corporation began bringing in Indian and Irish programmers. By the tme I left in 1998, there were almost NO Americans programming for this company. Most of the work was then being sent to India.

[JohnyCanuck]

40. The True State of the Union

The True State of the Union
More Deception from the Bush White House

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

<snip>

Roach is the first free trade economist to admit that the disruptive technology of the Internet has dashed the globalization hopes. It was supposed to work like this: The first world would lose market share in tradable manufactured goods and make up the job and economic loss with highly-educated knowledge workers. The "win-win" was supposed to be cheaper manufactured goods for the first world and more and better jobs for the third world.

It did not work out this way, Roach writes, because the Internet allowed job outsourcing to quickly migrate from call centers and data processing to the upper end of the value chain, displacing first world employees in "software programming, engineering, design, and the medical profession, as well as a broad array of professionals in the legal, accounting, actuarial, consulting, and financial services industries."

This is what I have been writing for years, while the economics profession adopted a position of total denial. The first world gainers from globalization are the corporate executives, who gain millions of dollars in bonuses by arbitraging labor and substituting cheaper foreign labor for first world labor. For the past decade free market economists have served as apologists for corporate interests that are dismantling the ladders of upward mobility in the US and creating what McMillion writes is the worst income inequality on record.

Globalization is wiping out the American middle class and terminating jobs for university graduates, who now serve as temps, waitresses and bartenders. But the whores among economists and the evil men and women in the Bush administration still sing globalization's praises.

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02012006.html

[Deja Q]

52. "having trouble being filled in America"? BULL SHIT.

Jobs are leaving America and what's left aren't being taken up because nobody can afford relocation... assuming employers look that far.

There are MANY bright people in this country. Trouble is, they want living wages. And that is a crime.

This is a total FARCE.

[LiberalEsto]

62. The corporations break the H1-B rules too.

People working here on H1-B visas are supposed to be paid the same as American co-workers. This is to supposedly protect American workers from getting replaced by lower-wage foreign workers.

However there are all sorts of sneaky little tricks the corporations use to change job categories, etc. so the foreign workers are actually paid considerably less. This happens where my husband works all the time.

I am afraid he may lose his job to an H1-B worker. If that happens, we will lose our tiny house and what little we have (house is furnished almost entirely in garage sale furniture - to make ends meet.) There is no work out there for people with his skills, at least not at a living wage.

[insane_cratic_gal]

57. Being a techie on the help desk circuit

I use to have to have printers replaced when they were under warranty for HP..

the help desk if of course in India. It took me 1 hour to replace two printers both under a legit warranty and less then 2 months old.

two in one hour. I could fixed both on my own in less the time.

I had one that just wouldn't power on, he kept telling me to replace the power cord, I kept explaining to "Bob" I had just used the power cord for the previous printer so it's obviously not the power cord. That took 25 mins to explain.

I probably could fixed the damn thing myself in under an hr, but warranty is a warranty even if people give up in frustration.

I think that is part of the psych ops of Dell, HP etc. Your less likely to hang around trying to explain over and over again what the problem is when the person on the other end keeps telling you to reboot, or reformat (answer for everything). In fact your likely to just give up and go out and replace the machine yourself rather then deal with the frustration.

Oh btw.. I just turned down a tech job in a hospital for this exact reason. Admin sys can be done from My house, or an office out of DC eventually it's all going over seas. Anyone in the business can see the trend for the last few yrs. I took another job in the hospital completely unrelated to the tech industry, and I'm thrilled about it. Pay was slightly less but there is job security at least.

[Greyhound]

92. As a tech worker you (hopefully) understand the real issue.

(I say hopefully because I have been meeting more and more "techs" that are M$ point & click kiddies and are clueless of that doesn't work, as it frequently doesn't)
The luddites that make technology decisions without the vaguest clue about the technology are going to cause huge disasters.
If you can access a system remotely (work from home or India) then a backdoor similar to back orifice or sub-7 has been installed on the system and can, therefore, be accessed by anyone with a good understanding of the many vulnerabilities of Microshit software.

[insane_cratic_gal]

97. I agree ..

Was I was referring to was off-site servers though, not remotely because there are far too many backdoors vulnerabilities.

Take the Navy for instance, all of their IT staff has been downgraded to a few sys ads who don't even have a power user profile, all they can do is call the DC office (were all the servers are currently some contractor) and get people profiles updated.

I see it going from DC, to all over the world, to where ever the labor is cheapest.

Your 100 percent correct, there is no way to know the security boundaries with these companies some idiot who doesn't understand the process is going to mess it up. Wasn't that an issue as recently as two years ago, when a Japanese company wanted to buy out a defense contract that included the governments servers for something or another?

[0rganism]

63. I'd rather see the workers coming here than the jobs going overseas

At least when they come here, the H1-B techies can live among Americans, and receive fair compensation for their efforts. I welcome them.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newportdadde]

65. LMAO I'm in IT and let me tell you those caps don't mean shit anyways.

They will bring in one guy onshore and he sends the work to 5 offshore back home in India. Thats how it works. We have had a hiring freeze in an IT department of 500 for over 5 years, no backfilling. At 30 I'm still considered a youngin. We take all of the grunt work away and send it offshore, there is no experience building programming anymore even if we did hire someone out of school.

A double whammy for me is that without new people its very difficult to swing a promotion as your always compared to someone with say 25 years experience.

If I get up and walk around here for 10 minutes I will see 1/3rd of the offices empty, another 1/3rd Americans(I'm being generous) and 1/3 from India.

The kicker is the folks from India ALWAYS GO BACK and take their experience with them! Most are young men in their early twenties who sleep 6 to a two bedroom apartment, the moment they get good its time to go home and get married and off they go.

When the older folks here, 2/3rd of those remaining are over 45 leave we are in a world of hurt, I imagine its the same in many other companies.

As an aside I have had to personally clean up MAJOR mistakes they made twice recently, one time using a copy of an old modified program deleting changes I had done 6 fucking months ago! They are sloppy and don't have any company loyalty like their American counterparts would.
Can't say much though, hell we get reviewed on how well we work with them.

[LiberalEsto]

67. Some facts about H-1B. They don't pay into FICA.

Here is an excellent web site outlining the H-1B visa program and how it hurts American workers.

http://www.zazona.com/shameh1b/H1BFAQs.htm#WhoIstoBlameforH-1B

From the website:

"US policy makers don't realize that expanding the workforce by temporary migration won't bolster our SS program in the same way that a comparable increase in the permanent US workforce would. They've already bargained away a lot of that benefit. Payments coming into the US system (from US workers abroad) aren't likely to match those being remitted to other countries (for foreign temporaries in the US).

Many of the H-1Bs that qualify for totalization will work for 6 years without contributing to the SS system and then get their green cards. Of course then they will expect SS when they retire as US citizens. US workers are really getting the shaft on this one!"

[liberalpragmatist]

79. Not true, at least according to Wikipedia

Now, since Wikipedia is open source, it could be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B#Myth_1:_H-1B_workers_pay_no_US_taxes.2C_or_are_paid_in_their_home_country_to_avoid_US_tax.

Also, this story indicates that H1-B holders DO pay social security taxes:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/apr/17us2.htm

A few years ago Ajay Sehgal (not his real name), a young Indian high tech worker based in Connecticut, received a letter from the Social Security Administration.

The letter stated that through the six years that Sehgal lived and worked in the United States -- first on an H-1B visa and later while his greencard application was pending -- he had contributed approximately $50,000 in social security taxes.

<snip>

He was told that foreign employees (including those on H-1B visas) who may have worked in the America for a few years could claim social security benefits upon retirement, but this depends on the country of their origin.

In fact, Sehgal later learned, as an Indian citizen on a temporary visa such as H-1B, he could not receive any social security retirement benefits -- even though he had legally paid his social security taxes.

[liberalpragmatist]

68. "All Those Japs and Chinks are Taking the Railway Jobs!"

"Instead of hiring good old-fashioned American workers!"

I'm not accusing you personally of racism or nativism, but the sentiments you are expressing have a long and ugly history in America and throughout the world.

Perhaps I'm more sensitive because I'm Indian-American, but as I see it, we are a nation of immigrants that have absorbed millions for generations. I can understand opposition to outsourcing, but when it comes to opposing legal immigrants because they're "taking" the jobs, I don't have much sympathy. I don't see this as any different from people complaining about the Mexican immigrants that are taking "American" jobs. Go back a few decades and it was all the Irish and Italian labor that people were complaining about or about the Jewish immigrants taking all the university slots and high-wage jobs.

[LiberalEsto]

74. Basically I just don't want to become homeless

If my husband, who is an extremely overworked and busy database administrator with absolutely no free time to learn a new skill, gets laid off like so many of his co-workers already have, we will no longer be able to afford to pay our mortgage and will have to sell our home. We will no longer be able to afford to live in the Washington DC area.

We know many, many people people who used to work in the computer industry who have been unemployed for years, or who have had to take low-paying jobs as sales clerks.

I cannot work full time or do anything that requires standing, for health reasons. I have a herniated disc in my back and am in almost constant pain. I am a writer and I work part time. We have a daughter in college who is piling up huge loan debts to get a degree.

My husband will have to look for a job that, at best, pays only about half of what he earns now, if he's lucky enough to get something at all. When Wal-Mart had some job openings in the Chicago area recently, 25,000 people applied.

It is not racist to want to keep one's job. It is not racist to want one's own elected officials to stop handing American jobs to people from other countries. I don't care if these people are Indian, Irish, German, Brazilian or whatever. They should not be permitted to come here and take our jobs and take food out of the mouths of Americans who live here and pay taxes.

[liberalpragmatist]

76. Yeah, that's a pretty bad situation

I realize there aren't easy answers to this and that obviously many people such as yourself and others in the computer industry have had lots of problems in our allegedly "great" economy.

Nor am I going to claim that the H1-B Visa program is a perfect program; however, it should be noted that H1-B Visa holders are considered tax residents and pay full US taxes like any other citizen or resident alien.

The main concern is the xenophobic current that runs through a lot of the discourse advocating less immigration. I realize that you're the net loser in all this, but those workers aren't trying to maliciously "take your job" - they're trying to get ahead themselves and provide for themselves and their families.

What are the answers? I don't really know - I'm not an economist. Protectionism doesn't work; neither does shutting ourselves off from the world. At the same time, there has to be a more civilized system that simply dog-eat-dog. I tend to lean towards supporting free trade (real free trade, not some artificial one where the West demands that developing countries open their economies but continues to subsidize their own big agribusiness). But I feel that there need to be strong labor protections, strict rules on corporate taxation, caps or disincentives on excessive CEO pay, and a strong safety net in place that includes good public education, universal health care, investments in technology, affordable higher education, and generous unemployment insurance. What of this is possible? Again, I'm no expert.

But I'm sensitive about people accusing other "groups" of taking their jobs. It's not always racist or xenophobic, but often, it is, accusing some shadowy "other" of stealing American's "rightful jobs".

[Kellanved]

77. No, that is not the case

High-qualified immigration creates jobs.
People working on H1-B visa pay taxes stateside, spend money stateside, want to earn as much as money (which is a net gain for the American economy, due to the education costs) and - often - want to become Americans.
People in India etc. do not pay taxes stateside, but are just as able to perform the jobs "at home".

[area51]

98. "It is not racist to want to keep one's job."

"It is not racist to want to keep one's job. It is not racist to want one's own elected officials to stop handing American jobs to people from other countries. I don't care if these people are Indian, Irish, German, Brazilian or whatever. They should not be permitted to come here and take our jobs and take food out of the mouths of Americans who live here and pay taxes."

Well said, LiberalEsto. :thumbsup:

[Deja Q]

78. The problem is corporate america setting up imbalances.

I don't hate a group of people just because they've got it much better. It's what they do with their power.

India only gets our jobs. Corporate America is not just giving away jobs (and infrastructure which means America is goin' down), it's also making jobs for terrorists we create much easier to accomplish: that of destroying American infrastructure. And Indian lives.

Also, why should legal immigrants get years upon years of free tax money just so they can get all the education they want, and firsthand experience in our offshoring corporations, before they get shipped back? Georgie says America needs to improve education. Well, it must be pretty fuckin' good in the first place if we're doling out H1Bs like there's no tomorrow.

Solely as an observer, of course.

[liberalpragmatist]

93. They don't get free tax money

H1-B holders pay full US taxes as tax residents of the U.S. Many will pay social security taxes for six years and never get social security benefits as they return to their home countries.

[natrat]

71. and i know my scumbag senator DIFI will be right there with bunnypants

[Vinca]

72. Bush and his "math and science" road trip is driving me crazy.

Why should Americans study math and science when he's lifting the flood gates so all the jobs can be taken by low paid, foreign workers? Another thing pissing me off about the PR campaign for math and science is that it has coincided with Congress slashing funding for college educations. 'splain that one to me, Lucy.

[Kansas Wyatt]

89. BushCo. and his Republican minions always come out for something

For appearances only, while they are destroying people all the way to the poor house. They do not care about the citizenry, as long as the corporations and wealthy elite get what they want.

Every time BushCo. & Republicans are for something domestically, it means they really want to destroy it.

[politicat]

75. My partner's company already went through this.... it didn't work.

About 5 years ago, they brought in a bunch of H-1Bs from India to do their in-house, custom software. (They're in the insurance business, and they must use a custom software system for proprietary reasons.)

About 4 years ago, they fired them all, readjusted the IT budget, and hired US trained, higher paid citizen or legal resident alien IT workers.

The cultural differences (Indians have a real problem saying no to a person's face, so they will prevaricate rather than admit they can't do something, for example) and the quality of the work was just costing them too much in lost productivity. They made a policy that they would not outsource, and when they were bought in December, the purchasing company agreed with that policy and let it stand. (The company is now partly owned by Warren Buffett.)

Hopefully, other companies will discover the same thing quickly if this passes.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

80. Bush is the one who should be outsourced

Was afraid that this was coming... Just when things are just getting a little better with computer wages.

[high density]

84. What computer jobs?

Do we still have those in this country?

[Jose Diablo]

91. This is Bu$h's plan to make American workers more competitive

By driving down the wages and benefits. Eventually, for those that survive and acclimate to the new work environment, they will be able to compete with workers in China and India.

Of course, we can expect shanty towns to spring-up in all the cities around the plants that employ these 'new' competitive workers. Don't want to live in shanty town? Well they will also have 'paid' housing in those new facilities FEMA is building. Won't even have to pay, of course the wages will be MUCH lower if you live and work in those facilities. It'll be just like China.

Won't even have to pay union dues either. There won't be unions, unless the government approves of them. I imaging well connected Republicans may decide they want to represent the people, and will be appointed to represent and present the peoples requests to the corporations. They will probably be paid pretty good to, the union representatives I mean. They'll have separate housing, being important and all.

Won't this be great? It will be a workers paradise, right? No worries, just do what they say and everything will be OK. 3 meals a day, a roof and bed. What more could a worker want?

Edit: This thing called a middle class, it only existed for a little more than a century. We look at the world as it was in the 30's to today, and think it's 'normal'. Look around the world. This thing we have is only a brief blip in the history of mankind. Bu$h and his friend's, they want to take the world back to what has been 'normal' throughout history.

The elite in the victorian age developed a social conscience, got soft and allowed the middle class to develope. They are gonna stop that foolishness now. What ya gonna do about it?

[jeannicot]

95. What is this?

The DU Asian bashing thread?

[oioioi]

99. yup. disgusting isn't it?

[bobbieinok]

101. you've been carefully following the discussion, right??

[jeannicot]

102. I did

unfortunately.

I know xenophobic racist drivel when I see it.

[oioioi]

103. Welcome to DU... sorry about some of those already here... :(

[Maru Kitteh]

108. Speak for yourself

And anybody who thinks that people being upset about watching their jobs given away right out from under them by their own elected officials is wrong can move the fuck on.

Xenophobic racism my ass. How cheap, intelletually lazy and just. . . taudry.

I suppose the posters upthread who were complaining about their own jobs being handed to Irish were racists too?

Please. :eyes:

[LeftCoast]

109. Locking

This thread has flamed out.