Originally posted this in the Lounge.. wanted to see what GD thinks of it..

[opiate69]

http://www.norwichbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/NEWS01/701170309/1002">Barbaric' slaying in Plainfield detailed

The man pictured in the link above, one Roger A. Fenner, was arrested early last friday morning for brutally stabbing to death his on-again, off-again former girlfriend. Take a good, hard look at his mug shot. What do you see? Most likely, you see a drugged-out, murderous animal. Right?
Just about 19 yeas ago, I was an 18 year old kid, playing guitar in a very crappy little cover band in some guy's basement just outside of Jewitt City, Connecticut. I was the "lead" guitarist, and we had gone through several rythym guitarists when a 26 year-old named Roger came down to audition for us. Right from the first chord, we knew he was the guy... not only did he know all of the songs we were playing, but he had flair, style and about 5 years of experence in some of Rhode Island's "A-circuit" cover bands. We jammed for several months, and Roger and I grew pretty close. He was working as an installer for a fence building company in Rhode Island, and offered to get me hired on there for almost double what I was making as a donation pick-up driver for the local soup kitchen. I jumped at the chance, naturally. I would drive every morning to his house in Sterling (and usually have to go in and wake him from his beer-soaked sleep), and after he had made himself a giant mug of tea, we'd hop into his Granada and drive over to the shop. I tell ya, it was pretty good times. We'd drive around Rhode Island building fences, often stopping off at a park overlookng Narragansett Bay for lunch. We'd sit and talk about how we were going to put a band together that would get all the prime gigs (and, of course, the prime women), or he'd regale me with stories from his past bands...in the immortal words of Tom Petty, "the future was wide open".

One spring evening, when my girlfriend and I were living at my sister's house, Roger came over seriously stressed out. Seems he owed the state of Rhode Island a fair amount of back-child support, and they had issued a warrant for his arrest. He had an older brother living in Tacoma, Washington and had already arranged to fly out and stay with him until he could save some money to pay off his debt. Not that he ever would have actually paid, but that's neither here nor there. He asked if I wanted to go with him... naturally, just picking up and movng 3000 some-odd miles away wasn't something I could just do at the drop of a hat, but the idea had some serious merit. The area I lived in was (is?) very economically depressed and seemingly isolated from the rest of the world. Although,maybe when you're young and extraordinarily ambitious, any place feels isolated and small.. in any case, he left that weekend, and we spent the next 3 months or so in almost daily contact. I finally agreed, and his brother sent plane tickets for my girlfriend and I.

I moved to Tacoma in October of '89. Roger, my girlfriend and myself shared a nice 2 bedroom apartment. I found a job at Goodwill (paying a whole $3.85/hour!) which was supposed to be temporary until the rainy season ended and we cuold go build fences. Meanwhile, he worked as a DJ at a local strip club. He would occasionally bring a dancer or two home after his shift, and stay up drinking and screwing until sunrise. In January of 1990, I turned 21. Roger and my girlfriend threw me a kick-ass party. Shortly after that, things started to sour. Roger and one of the dancers "became serious". She moved in with us, and there was tons of tension between her and my girlfriend. Naturally, this all spilled over into my friendship with Roger. Everything came to a head one evening when Deena and I came home, and found His girlfriend on the phone with my mother. After a minute, she handed the phone to me and my mother proceeded to ream me up one side and down the other.. I don't even remember what it was over, but I'm sure it was pretty damned stupid of all of us. When I hung up, I laid into his girlfriend.. after all this time, I have no idea what all I said, but I do know that by the time I had said my peace, she was in tears. Deena and I went into our room, where I got undressed and climbed into bed and read Lord of the Rings. ABout 45 minutes later, Roger came bursting in (he had been at work) and proceeded to stand over me threatening me with allmanner of bodily harm. I showed him no reaction.. none of the fear he had hoped to instill in me.. just stared at him impassively until he was done. That weeknd, Deena and I moved out.

Several months later, I received a letter from my mother. Seems Roger and his girlfriend had moved back east. To make things even more interesting, at some point when Roger lived in Tacoma, his parents sold their house and moved into a 55+ condo, so, when Roger got back east, they had no place to stay. They ended up staying at my mom's for several months. At some point, Roger got into a fight with my mom's boyfriend, and he and his girlfriend moved on. That was the last I had heard of him. Until last friday, that is.

I'm not really sure why I'm even writing all this... it's just been bugging me I guess.. I suppose in some weird way, it's got me to thinking about where I am in life, and how all those dreams we had never quite did come to fruition. Don't get me wrong... I am very happy with my life. I have a great wife who I love dearly, who not only loves me, but actually gets me.. you know... on that level that only a very few people in one's life can. And while we're "officially" poor, with a house that's literally falling apart around our ears, we're happy, and healthy. But I guess it all comes back to choices. And of course, some things none of us can control. I can tell you that Roger made some bad, bad choices throughout his life. But I can also tell you that there were things in his past that, I believe, fundamentally changed the course of his life for the worse. In any case, take another look at the mugshot. I know you see a cold-blooded murderer, but I see the cocky young guitarist who was going to help me set the world on fire.

[davhill]

1. We all like to fool themselves

That people who do horrible things are somehow less human than we. That way we can avoid facing that under some circumstances we to could do something horrible.

[driver8]

2. Wow!! A very powerful story.

Thanks for sharing that with us.

I went to high school with a kid who later killed his father. The papers and the news portrayed him as a cold blooded murderer but to me, he was the same kid I went to school with.

People are strange...no can say for certain what a person is, or isn't capable of doing. Your story really made me think.

[hickman]

3. The older I get the less I can see black and white.

The man has to pay for his crime. What ever she did, she didn't deserve to be murdered. Demonizing him is a game for the self-righteous.

[opiate69]

19. Hickman, you've nailed it to a tee.

Demonizing him is a game for the self-righteous.

[hickman]

4. When was this posted in the lounge? n/t

[opiate69]

5. Yesterday morning...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6074034&mesg_id=6074034

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. You're Right. I Do See A Cold Blooded Selfish Murder, Which In Fact Is What He Is.

I sympathize with your story and thought you did a wonderful job in telling it. But in the end I still see him as nothing more than a selfish cold blooded murderous dead beat dad who once played guitar.

He will receive the justice he deserves. God bless her family.

[opiate69]

8. Then you, as usual, completely missed the point.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. No, I Didn't. Nothing In Your OP Changes The Fact That He Is A Cold Blooded Murder.

In fact, all it did was provide insight that he was a dead beat dad with an anger management problem as well, who once enjoyed playing guitar.

But what was the point supposed to be? That I'm supposed to see him as more human or more than a thug?

I know he's human. I know he has flaws. In this case, his flaws were that he was a selfish ass cold blooded murderous dead beat dad scumbag. Not sure what other points in addition to that you wanted me to see. :shrug:

[opiate69]

10. Did you hear that loud "whooosh"?

In this case, his flaws were that he was a selfish ass cold blooding murderous dead beat dad scumbag.

Not "was".. "is".. he didn't have to turn out this way, and assholes who only know him from this one heinous, unforgivable act are missing a big, big piece of the picture. Many people are (rightfully) mourning Ms. Courtmarche, but I am also mourning my friend, because it seems the man I knew, the man who helped instigate the biggest life-changing decision of my life, died some time ago. I only hope there is still some remnant of that man behind those eyes, and that he is able to finally get the help he needs in coming to terms with all the shit life dumped on him.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. You Need To Grow Up If You're Gonna Call Anyone An Asshole Who Doesn't Agree With You.

I mean, seriously, how childish can you get? :rofl:

And I understand you are mourning him, as is your right. It is my right to believe that the person you are mourning is a selfish, cold blooded murderous dead beat dad scumbag. I also refuse to deflect his heinous actions onto 'the shit life dumped on him'. Life didn't dump that level of shit on him. He's responsible for this all his own.

I'm sorry for your pain and I'm glad he at some point he had helped you. But that doesn't change the fact that he's a piece of shit that should rot in prison till the day he fucking dies.

And no, it doesn't make me an 'Asshole' for believing that. It makes me far more accurate in my judgment of people than you. I found it quite sad that just because I didn't agree or feel swayed by your OP to see him for something more than a cold blooded murderer, that you had to attack by calling names.

I got news for ya: Just because at some time in life you knew him well, doesn't make him any less of a cold ass piece of rotten shit now. It might affect your ability to perceive his evil clearly, but it still doesn't change the facts.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. The strange thing is, you didn't describe any "shit life dumped on him"

His brother helped him out, your mother helped him out - the people around him seem to have treated him well. But you say he never would have paid the child support. You really don't paint him as a particularly sympathetic person. At times, he was a good friend to you (though he also tried to intimidate you); but not, it would seem, to many other people.

[Fierce]

56. That's what I saw, too.

I saw very little redemptive here, and cannot mourn a man who kills a woman and leaves her children to call 911.

[dogday]

7. The choices we make in our lives

You made yours, he made his...

[opiate69]

14. LOL! Then, he blocks me...

Nice, progressive empathy there, OMC.

[mondo joe]

15. That's too bad. Blocking is cowardly.

I thought better of OMC than that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. Nothing Cowardly About It At All. In Fact, It's Pathetic To Call Someone A Coward For Doing So.

Way I see it, I'm fed up with the cowards of debate, so to speak, that can only reply in debate with direct personal attack instead contextual argument. I'm fed up with it and am thankful the mods have come up with a way of defeating their incivility. Why should I bother the mods with an alert when I could take care of it myself? Nothing cowardly about it. It's not like I'm stifling debate. I'll debate people just fine, obviously. But I'm puttin my foot down with those who would rather abuse, attack, call names or engage in other acts of incivility rather then actually having the intellectual prowess to engage in the debate itself.

[mondo joe]

18. Fallacious.

You never NEEDED to alert a mod. You could have easily ignored anyone, and still could.

Blocking is a pussy way to get in the last word in an argument, by preventing another poster from responding.

Enjoy it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. With All Due Respect,

The argument had already ended abruptly when the poster chose to engage in petty name calling rather than continuing the argument. So don't put that on me bub.

And no, blocking isn't being a pussy. It's a way to no longer have to put up with those who can only engage in attack.

I think some of these people need to learn how to engage in discussion rather than grade school name calling. DU will be far better for it. I don't like having to block anybody. But I figure it's useful right now as a tool for us to use to get the message across to some that their immature bullshit is in need of change.

Someone can argue with me as passionately as they want to, be as stubborn as they want, and go round and round with a topic as often as they want with me, and I would never block them for it no matter how bad it got. But if they so quickly can only turn to incivility and personal attack, then why shouldn't they be blocked? Why should I allow my door of discussion to be open when they are only willing to walk through it to take a shit on the floor? When they learn how to control their bodily functions and hold their shit in, maybe I'll open the door again.

Don't care if you don't agree. Don't care if think no one should be blocked ever. I think if someone is automatically going to go for personal abusive attack, they should absolutely be blocked. I think their behaviors in the past and tendency to engage in such incivility is what has made GD a friggin mess to begin with. It's about time we have the power to help reel it back in again.

[liberalhistorian]

49. What you really mean is that you're fed up with

anyone who doesn't completely agree with you, who doesn't think the way YOU want them to, and you're glad you don't have to bother the mods with every petty little complaint against anyone who doesn't toe YOUR line. Are you eyes frozen in your head? Do your hands and fingers not work? Because no one forces you to read the posts of someone, if you don't want to, don't, it's that simple. It's nothing more than absolute cowardice, immaturity, petulance and pettiness to use the block feature, especially when a discussion isn't going the way YOU want it to. Believe me, I'm sure the mods are glad they don't have to deal with YOUR constant finger on the alert button anymore.

And your only actual debate in this has been to let loose a string of negative adjectives, then put on your smug superiority mask and bash and block people when they don't line up in agreement. Wash, rinse, repeat. That's not argument or debate. And blocking is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala."

The use of blocking, especially in this instance, is nothing more than cowardly immaturity on your part. And if you think I or others are actually bothered by you blocking them, think again. I really don't give a damn who blocks me, it just shows their immaturity.

[liberalhistorian]

43. Did you really?

Then you obviously must see something in him that the OP and I don't see and haven't seen.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Being Progressive Doesn't Mean Having Empathy Towards Cold Blooded Mudering Pieces Of Shit.

Sorry bub.

And if you don't know how to keep it civil and are going to resort to immature personal attack, then don't act surprised when someone blocks you.

[spacelady]

21. Why are you being so antagonistic? You had your say about

the man accused of murder, but you seem to go out of your way to be profane and in your face nasty albeit in a robotic and Spocklike logical manner. This vulcan manner apparently enables you to pick apart and parse every syllable uttered in response to your tirade so that you may keep on making some nebulous point until you get tired & flick people like boogers from the tip of your finger.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. I'm Just Being Bluntly Honest, Nothing More.

Sorry if I happen to be sensitive to stories of where someone brutally stabs the shit out of a woman in front of her kids and stuff.

Sorry, next time I'll certainly try to be a bit more sympathetic towards the brutal guy who stabbed the shit out of said woman, because sometime, long ago, he played guitar.

:eyes:

[spacelady]

25. Well, you just make sure you do that. Honestly.

:crazy:

[Horse with no Name]

31. ......

:spray:
Funniest.line.ever.:rofl:

[spacelady]

34. ........

:D

[liberalhistorian]

46. You have no idea who I do and do not have empathy

toward. And I'm not sure how I was resorting to "immature personal attack", frankly, unless saying anything at all that disagrees with you is, in your eyes, an "immature personal attack." And I frankly don't give a shit if someone blocks me. It's the ultimate in cowardice and immaturity and says more about them than it does about the poster being blocked.

And YOU yourself really had nothing to say other than continually posting adjectives in reference to the OP's friend. Now, I will agree that he ain't exactly the Choir Boy for 2006. But you are NOT arguing, you're simply repeating negative adjectives. Some of the adjectives may be deserved, but simply repeating them and asserting your superiority does NOT serve as intelligent debate and argument.

[crispini]

33. You. Are. Shitting. Me.

You know, I read your story back when you posted in the lounge, and I didn't have much to say, because, well, that's LIFE, you know, people are bad, but even the worst people in the world have a human side to them, a slice of Buddhanature in their temperament, so to speak. I thought it was a true story, and didn't remark much on it, and went on.

And now this yobbo comes in your interesting, thoughtful thread, shits all over it, and then BLOCKS YOU IN YOUR OWN THREAD? That is amazingly, impressively, rude!

You know, I granted a blanket amnesty on my ignore list right when the block feature came up, but I kept a list of who was on it. Upon review, I see that OMC was on it then, and I think he's gonna go back on it now.

[opiate69]

35. Amazing, no?

Now why on earth would anyone ever use the term "asshole" in his general vicinity??
:shrug: :sarcasm:
Thanks for the support though, for sure.

[crispini]

37. The nice thing about ignore is that I have found that I'm really NOT curious

about what someone says to me. Personal attack or soup recipe; they've got equal impact. I've found judicious use of ignore really takes my bp down. I haven't decided about "block" yet, though. Apparently you've decided against using it?

[opiate69]

40. Actually, I finally broke down and returned his favor.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. Hey Opiate And Liberalhistorian, This Is For You Guys Too.

First, let me add a comment to Opiate: What do you mean why am I still here? I'm not the one who betrayed DU rules of civility and copped-out to the argument by resorting to personal attack rather than sticking to the context. You did that, not me. I even gave you a second chance, but you did so worse than the first time. I didn't know there was a hidden rule in this thread that everyone who replied had to agree. Personally, I was offended by the premise of the thread. I can think of almost nothing day to day that pisses me off more than when some brutal jackass murders the hell out of another in cold blood. Yes, that is something that I'm passionately against, sorry. Now just because I feel that way, and bluntly state my opinion of such, does not give you the right to attack me personally. If you want to debate the merits of why I feel that way or why I'm wrong, that's perfectly acceptable and I'm always open to such debate. But personal attack instead of contextual debate is not acceptable by me, PERIOD.

Fact is, I did nothing wrong whatsoever in my initial reply in this thread other than disagree with your premise and call the guy out for what he was. I was even polite in doing so and complimentary towards you. But you chose to get personal in response, and after several replies crossed the line completely. Your lack of civility to a differing opinion was completely inappropriate. So you all can criticize me as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that I wasn't the one who broke the rules. I issued return points as to why I held the beliefs I had. The OP didn't in response to me. The OP only issued personal attack instead. So spare me the "Oh my gosh! OMC is such an asshole!" garbage. I'm just simply blunt and honest. I challenge anyone to actually respond to my argument with any logic whatsoever, as opposed to personal attack, as to how this guy WASN'T a cold blooded murderer. Cause if in fact that is what he was, then there is nothing wrong with my saying so to begin with. Now here's the original context of this post:

Why Is It Thoughtful To Want To Get Sympathy For Someone Who Brutally Murdered A Mother?

I'm so perplexed by this. Why should I have? There is nothing I am disgusted by more than those who are so selfish and evil to so brutally murder another human being like this. Why am I being the one demonized for not giving the thug slack?

Seriously. I'm in absolute awe of the mentality behind this.

So what that he knew him personally? Every cold blooded murderer had someone who knew them and cared for them. But so what? Does that change the reality?

I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about my reply. I'm not ever going to give such evil people slack who are so selfish, so cold, so brutal, that they would stab the shit out of a mother because of some petty jealousy. It is a heinous act if there ever was one.

You think I should've been soft on him because he once played guitar or had a friend that is now a DU'er? Seriously?

Not me. I don't care who he's known in life. He just brutally murdered somebody by stabbing them in the neck, and now children are orphans. He's a cold blooded murderer, period. Yes, that's what I see. It isn't shitting in this thread to say that. I'm not an asshole for saying that. He stabbed the shit out of some woman for god's sake. And I'm the asshole for declaring that? I question your judgment, with all due respect.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[opiate69]

51. Cheers, Maddy!

:toast:

[liberalhistorian]

42. And you expected anything different

from him? I sure didn't, and I ain't surprised. You probably aren't either, for that matter.

[opiate69]

45. Well.. in retrospect, I guess it really shouldn't have surprised me..

One has to wonder why he's still here.

[opiate69]

22. And, just to clarify on the "dead-beat dad" issue..

When I was working with him back east, he was giving his ex $200 out of every paycheck for support. They "had an arrangement", which she confirmed when I met her for the only time. For whatever reason, he didn't want to deal with Rhode Island Child Support Services. Not a good decision, but I never claimed he was infallible.

[H2O Man]

24. It's a strange part

of life. When people get to be in their mid-30s and 40s, life stares them in the face. And often in the most unexpected ways. And part of it is encounters with our past. There is an interesting story in the Autobiography of Malcolm X. After he has transformed his life, Malcolm visits an old friend named Archie. What he sees haunts him: Archie, who with just a few different circumstances in his life, might have been a contributing member of society. Instead, he is a shadow of the man he had been about 19 years before. It is a time when Malcolm must look life in the eyes, on life's terms, and to evaluate and accept that which is.

[scarletwoman]

26. Fascinating and sad. It's hard to see a friend sink into darkness.

While no one I've ever been close to has gone so far as to commit murder, I've known the sadness of witnessing a once vibrant and talented old friend drift into drug addiction.

Life can be really tough -- some people lose their way.

sw

[sammythecat]

44. "Life can be really tough - - some people lose their way." Your

words are profound, yet so simple and so very true. That really is the way it is. I hope someday we become wise enough to know how to help others from losing their way.

[mondo joe]

27. Not REALLY a response - but I received an email from my dad this week - he

explained that a guy who for some years was his work partner was just charged with being a serial rapist and murderer over a 20 year period.

I haven't lived back home from 20 years, so I never even heard of the crimes, much less met the guy.

My dad was weirded out by having worked every day with this guy, talked, joked, ate their lunch together - onlt to find out that the whole time the guy was raping women and even killing some.

His story isn't the same as yours - but I was thinking about it.

[opiate69]

29. Damn! And I thought my story freaked me out..

I can only imagine how your dad must be feeling.

[devilgrrl]

32. Are you referring to the "Bike Path Killer"?

Because if you are.... I'm :scared:

[mondo joe]

38. As a matter of fact...

yes.

I grew up in Buffalo, but have only been back a few times since.

My dad has been retired for a few years now, but at his last job that guy was his coworker.

[Cleita]

28. Tragic, but sometimes you wonder if it's the substance abuse

or if that side of him finally came to the surface. I've know alcoholics and druggies who were not violent in any way and who died without ever committing a violent act, nor was their behavior unpleasant even when they were snockered.

You should consider yourself lucky.

[opiate69]

30. Yeah.. it's such a fine line..

what exactly makes person A go in this direction, while person B goes in another... questions like that are why I studied Psych, I think.

[sammythecat]

39. I don't know why Martin Luther King turned out

the way he did. I don't know why Adolf Hitler turned out the way he did. It's a complex mystery that nobody can really understand. Neither can take full credit nor full blame for how they turned out.

It goes without saying the brutal death of Laurie Courtemarche was a tragedy, but so has the life of Roger Fenner become a tragedy. Both lives are to be mourned for having become so tragic. Those of us whose lives are not tragic have much to be thankful for. Thankful to what, I have no idea, but thankful just the same.

If I was religious, I'd pray for both of them. As it is, I can only shake my head in sorrow.

[opiate69]

41. Thank you for getting it...

Both lives are to be mourned for having become so tragic.

A succint and perfect appraisal.

[liberalhistorian]

47. Bingo, that is exactly the point!

Too bad our mindcriminal friend can't be bothered to see the colors beyond the black and white forest. Maybe he's still pretty young; I remember being stringently black and white in my thinking then, to the great annoyance of much older family and family friends. Now that I'm in my early forties, I'm beginning to see why that was so annoying to them.

[Lady President]

48. It's the questions

While it's not as dramatic, I have a somewhat similar story....

A young man that graduated from law school with me ended up in prison. He badly beat his wife and spent three years in prison. I knew that he had some run-ins with the police because of fighting, but they were bar brawls with his frat brothers. I thought he was a good guy. We were in the same first year section, hung out with the same people, were in the same study groups, etc. He was a smart, handsome, funny guy who had a bright future. Quite simply, he was my friend.

I moved after graduation, and we lost touch. At a wedding a couple years later I found out from a mutual friend that he had been convicted of felonious assault. You would have thought I was an investigative reporter the way I went after information on this incident. I found out that the bar fights kept him from sitting for the Bar, and that he became clinically depressed. He married a woman who he dated our first year in law school. They had a messy break-up, but evidentially got back together and married. She was awful, yet had money and he had a lot of loans. By the time of the trial they were divorced. By sentencing she was remarried to the only witness, who had testified to the brutality of the attack. On the other hand, she was about 100 lbs., and my friend apparently hit her hard enough to break her cheekbone. For years I checked periodically for his release date or appeals that were filed. He was released this summer. For his sake, I hope I never read another word about him.

Much like in your story, I don't see the wife-beater. I see a redheaded kid who wanted to be a sports agent and always made us laugh. I will never understand how he went from point A --> point B. Hell, maybe I'm just a bad judge of character.

It's a easier when you can think of the 'bad guy' as a one-dimensional evil character. The world is a little scarier when you have to come to grips with the fact that you don't truly know many people.

[Maddy McCall]

52. opiate, I am a former battered spouse of a deadbeat ex-husband...

while I loathe men like your friend, I don't hold you responsible for what he did, and I completely understand your bittersweet memories of him. I have those same memories about my ex-husband.

You are a wise man to be able to mourn as honestly as you have in your OP. Grief for the loss of a friend (even if "loss" is defined as losing the kind of person your friend once was) is a normal emotion when someone about whom you once cared does something so brutal and destructive.

A former friend of mine was arrested a couple of months ago for murder. We had ceased being friends long ago, because of the way she mistreated her children. Even though she later killed someone, there are still fond memories of her being so silly and funny when our circle of friends gathered to play poker or sit around a campfire. For me to try to erase those good memories would be dishonest.

My sympathies to the family of the woman who was killed. It is so sad that she couldn't extricate herself from that situation before it ended the way it did. It is doubly sad that her children will be marred by this for the rest of their lives.

:(

[opiate69]

53. Thank you, Maddy..

And I'm sorry abour your former friend as well.. and for your past... sometimes this is just a crazy damned existence, no?

[Maddy McCall]

54. It certainly is.

And it takes maturity and full-circle thought to be able to see things as you did in your OP. It took me 40 years to be able to see humans as complex creatures.

:hug:

[aikoaiko]

57. Well since you asked....

.. I think its fine to have sad feelings about a friend who turned into a violent criminal. I have friends who made some profoundly bad decisions too (albeit not as bad as your friend).

But to me, you described someone who abandoned his children financially, was a figutive from justice for failing to take care of his children, threatened you (his best friend) with physical violence without cause, and then became a violent murderer. That he played guitar in a cover band doesn't mean anything to me.

He sounds like a lifelong bad person whos trangressions only escalated over his lifetime. If convicted of murder, I hope the life in prison w/o parole or the death penalty is in your friends future.

As I said, since you asked.