Progressive Muslims Support Cartoons: We Should Support Them

[Jim Sagle]

by Norwegian Chef

Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 07:34:48 PM PDT

Thousands of progressive and modernist Muslims are just like you and me here on Kos who believe it is to fine, in fact healthy, to cariacture religious leaders, including Muhammad and other modern and historic Islamic figures and to even to satire or parody him, and they have been very vocal on their own websites. There was a brilliant, young Islamic women on the BBC defending the cartoons and the right of Free Press/Free Speech. She went up against some male Islamic Wingnut and trounced him.

In fact in many sects of Shia Islam, their are Icons everywhere still commonly used respectfully depicting Muhammad and his family (just visit any house in Southern Iran). Muhammad pictures are up on the walls. This drawing of Muhammad is not just historical as some sites have noted. Did it ever occur to anyone why the Shia's have been more quiet in this debate than the Sunnis.

So for the newsmedia and even some here on Kos to claim that ALL Muslims are outraged and all Islam forbids cariactures is ridiculous. All Muslims are not outraged, and there is no shortage of Muhammad cariactures in many Middle Eastern homes today, Just because a fundamentalist minority is out on the streets, is no reason to buy into this hate speech nonsense--this is the same fundmentalist minority that can always be counted on to denounce anything and everything about the West, USA, Israel, Europe. Gays, Women etc etc. In fact very much akin to our Fundmenatalist Christian Wingnuts.

Is it any wonder that the Saudi Government, the Gulf Shiektatorshis,, the Bush Administration and the Vatican Hierarchy have all condemmed the cartoons in their usual arrogany pompous manner?? Let me think--what they all have in common?? The are all propped up by Fundamentalists, they hate Free Speech, hate Free Press, support male domination, oppress women, hate gays and other minorties.

More from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/3/213448/9681#8

All supporters of religious and societal freedom will rally around these courageous progressives amd against their fundamentalist oppressors.

[JI7]

1. i agree

it's not about whether it was personally offensive to others. political cartoons often are. and there is nothing wrong with those who don't like them and say so.

but certain reactions are going too far as those rioting and getting violent and demanding the cartoonists and others who publish them be punished.

[uppityperson]

2. Thank you. It is good to read of this tolerance and understanding.

Fundamentalists of all sects are a problem.

[Spiffarino]

3. I tend to agree with this, but...

...I think it's scummy. To me, it's on the order of portraying black people as thieves and hispanics as uneducated domestics and farm workers.

Oh wait...our American media already DO that!! :wtf:

[Erika]

4. I do not support the mocking of religious prophets

of any religion. If their historical religious books credit these men as religious figures, let them be.

Whether they be Christ or Mohammad. Let us respect each other's beliefs with class. Freedom of speech can occur through legitimate debate, not debasing cartoons.

[tocqueville]

9. not tolerating mockery in both cases shows insecurity

in ones beliefs. So easier to rely on the "book". The step to believe that the Bible or the Koran are FACTS is then very little... then we know what follows....

WHERE ARE YOU VOLTAIRE, JEFFERSON, HUME, MONTESQUIEU WHEN WE NEED YOU ?

[Erika]

24. Insecurity does not equal respect n/t

[smirkymonkey]

45. What???

I think his/her point was that those who are insecure in their beliefs rely more heavily upon the externals of thier religion to reinforce a sense of security in their position (or something like that, I don't presume to know for certain what the poster had in mind.)

In my opinion, true faith is quiet, tolerant and is not threatened by those who believe otherwise. I think that many of these fundamentalists mental cases are consumed by fear, insecurity and hatred, which explains why they behave as they do. Therefore, I do not feel that such mockery is an offense to the truly faithful, only to the fanatics who use religion as a vehicle for their hatred and intolerance.

[WillyT]

19. I Do...

:shrug:

[fakeshemp]

33. They're not religious prophets to people that dont belong to that religion

And freedom of speech restricted to "legitimate" channels, is not freedom of speech. Let us all respect each others freedom of expression with class.

[tabasco]

53. Legitimate debate? Who decides? You?

Maybe a board of religious people can decide what we can see and can't see? I don't think so.

It's a big world with a lot of ideas and viewpoints.

If you don't like what a newspaper prints, don't buy the newspaper.

[Colorado Blue]

5. Wow. This puts a different light on matters doesn't it.

The fact is, the appearance of the protests and the threats DOES give the impression that all 1.3 billion of the world's Muslims are offended by the cartoons, and wish us dead.

I wish we could hear more from these moderate and liberal Muslims.

Where are they?

I also agree with the author that the violence in Sudan is appalling, and it would be nice to hear from some folks about that little problem. To date I believe some 2,000,000 people have died there in recent years.

Yet, one sees no flag burnings or even protests on their behalf, and precious little attention is paid to this catastrophe.

With regard to the cartoons, the Iraqi Shi'a leader said today that, while he deplores the publication of the cartoons, militant Islam has contributed to the problem by conveying a dark image to the world, causing people in the west to misinterpret this religion of brotherhood and peace.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Religion/

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. I'm glad some are tolerant, but I still consider it to have been in the

wrong. I don't agree with any violence that is a byproduct, but I won't undermine their anger either.

[fujiyama]

15. Byproduct...Undermining their anger?

Fuck that. I'm sick of hearing excuses over Islamic fanatacism. There are some Muslims that have legitimate greivances, but I'm tired of hearing these cries of victimization.

If this were a bunch of Christian fundies rioting, DUers would be going nuts. I'm frankly surprised thta so many are defending this visceral and violent reaction.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. I Think It Was Completely Inappropriate To Republish The Cartoons,

especially after having knowledge about how inciteful they were. I'm a liberal, I care about people's feelings. And for the record, calling all those angry about it fanatics is a bit insensitive as well, but to each their own.

They have a right to their culture as we do to ours. They have a right to consider it sacred, and it was in extremely bad taste in my opinion to reprint pictures that were known to cause an uproar by completely ignoring others cultural values.

Sorry to see you are so against those that don't believe as you do, but lord knows you have the right.

[fujiyama]

26. Angry is one thing

Offended is also understandable. I would imaginee that cartoons thaatt mock religious prophets would bring out quite a few strong feelings.

But violence is unacceptable.

[NoPasaran]

37. If someone who is ready to go out in the street and protest over a CARTOON

If someone who is ready to go out in the street and protest over a CARTOON isn't a fanatic, just what does it take to qualify?
:shrug:

[Kire]

49. how about a blackface cartoon in the washington post?

what about a cartoon depicting a lynching in the New York Times?

or a gay bashing? or a rape?

I'd go out in the street and protest over that.

[NoPasaran]

55. How about images depicting Israelis as Nazis?

Ever felt hit the bricks over that?

[Erika]

21. If Muslims had portrayed Christ in like cartoons

The religious right would have been insisting on the nuclear bomb. Get real.

[fujiyama]

28. And if and when they say such tthings

I'll call them out on it too. I hate them just as much.

I think people should be able to...well...let go of stupid irrelevant shit. The cartoons weere amaturish and dumb. They hhad little discernable wit or cleverness.

But if such a thing is found offensive, you write letters to the editor and stage aa non violent boycott of advertisers.

[megatherium]

41. Oh, please!

Christians were angry when the Monty Python movie Life of Brian was released, and when the Serrano piece "Piss Christ" (with a cross immersed in urine) was displayed, and when the play "Corpus Christi" (portraying Jesus as a contemporary gay man) was released a couple of years ago. But no one went nuclear. The State Department issued no apologies. No one rioted or called for terrorist groups to "punish" those responsible. However, an Islamic group in the UK did declare a fatwah against the playwright of Corpus Christi.

[Erika]

23. So when did the Muslims submit cartoons mocking Christ?

Just answer.

[tocqueville]

27. Go here you'll find at least two

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=314692&mesg_id=314692

[Kire]

51. the saddam as jesus one is obviously from a muslim artist

but christ doesn't get mocked that way, saddam is one of christ's "least of them" too, he can take the christ pose, jesus is willing to take the punishment

which other one in there is muslim?

I'm bookmarking that thread, BTW, great stuff

[megatherium]

42. Perhaps they don't publish cartoons mocking Christ because they revere

Christ as a prophet.

But they certainly publish lots of cartoons derogatory of Jews and Judaism (as well as Israel). Not to mention the big miniseries dramatizing the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that recently ran on Egyptian television.

[smirkymonkey]

47. Check out the Arab/Muslim press sometime.

You will see an unabashed display of Anti-Jewish and Anti-Western cartoons and more. Should we all go out in the streets, rioted and chanting "Death to Palestine", "Death to Islam" because of it.

These people need to grow the fuck up and deal with it.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

34. Is an image like this also acceptable ?

[fakeshemp]

35. Presumably you think so

Given that you've chosen to post it.:shrug:

[Kire]

52. LOL

gotcha

welcome to DU :hi:

[fujiyama]

36. Accepatble? I don't like it, but the person haas a right to say it...

Who am I to say something is acceptable or not? And thta kind of thing is pretty much standard fair in thee Islamic world. Why don't they call out their own bigots?...

If someone has a problem with such a caartoon, theh advertisers for the paper should be boycotted and letters to theh editor should bee sent.

I'm not saying I like the carrtoons in any way. Asidee from maybe one or two, the rest are kind of stupid. I can also see whhy it would be offensive but I'm more offended by theh violent reaction to it.

[smirkymonkey]

48. Gee, where'd you find that? Al Jazeera?

hmmm.....

[smirkymonkey]

46. Thank you!

The hypocrisy here is astounding - it's true that if this were taking place with white christian fanatics, we would see a very different reaction from those who are currently defending the muslim fanatics.

I am so tired of the PC bullshit that goes on here - a complete shutting down of inquiry and honest criticism of a religion simply because most of it's followers - but not all - are NOT-white. The truth gets submerged under cries of "racism" and "bigotry."

[DemExpat]

7. Yes, I saw that debate on BBC and was struck by the young

Muslim woman's insistance on freedom of speech being the very cornerstone of protection of minorities.

DemEx

[Colorado Blue]

10. Indeed - Bemildred pointed out on another thread that the

Nazis (and I would add, the Soviets) didn't flourish in the presence of a free press - but rather, in its absence.

[Tom Joad]

8. Diane Feinstein seeks to imprison those who desecrate

US flag.
Before we attack those who do not respect the First Amendment, we might want to start looking right here at home. Especially amongst those who are sworn to defend it.
Take Diane Feinstein, for example (Please!!) who seeks to imprison those who "desecrate" US flag (that, by the way, makes the flag a sacred object, a religious object, and this religion that is to revered by force of law, if Di and her right-wing friends have their way).

http://feinstein.senate.gov/releases00/flag_desecration...
Yes, that is "nicer" than calling for someone's head. Although it is certainly calling for violence toward offenders (weeks or months of incarceration is violent, make no mistake about that, especially for something that is really nothing more than political expression)

So there is sure plenty of absurdity here too. And this support certainly flys in the face of the First amendment, that DiFi swore to defend.

My point is that we do not need to look tens of thousands of miles away to see people who would suppress free speech. It can even be found by a very wealthy, privileged, very "educated".

Diane is not living in a land long occupied by a brutal occupier. It is Western Nations,Including Denmark, that are raining bombs on Iraq, even as we post these debates about cartoons. Iraqi babies die, while this endlessly talked about. Diane, by the way, opposes US immediate withdrawal.

[Jim Sagle]

11. I'm no DiFi fan, but she didn't call for lynching or murdering anyone.

A flag desecration law is a bad idea, but it falls well short of death threats.

[Tom Joad]

13. I said that. She is calling for imprisonment.

It is also, in effect, saying the flag is to revered as a religious object, and that is to be enforced by law. Kind of wacko to me.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. I would love to See Ward Connerly take her place in the Senate

and vote with Dr Frist to organize a GOP senate. :sarcasm:

[Tom Joad]

14. ...

:shrug:

[Coastie for Truth]

16. If DiFi is defeated in the Primary

Matt Gonzales won't win over a GOP candidate. Believe it or not - the state of California is bigger and redder then the Bay Area.

[fujiyama]

17. I think he means that if we don't support

DINOFi, we're helping repukes.

But in a safe race like her's, if I lived in CA, I wouldn't be too worried and would find it difficult to vote for her.

And I agree that we have a lot to fix here at home (Bush and the psycho Christian right are also a threat - note their power in geetting a TV show cancelled before it even aired), but I still am appaled at what almost sound like excuses over these Muslim fanatics. I somtimes get the impression that some are not very consistant in their attacking of reeligious extremists. ANd I also reject the idea that aall Muslims are just helpless victims, though some certaainly are (those living in Iraq for example).

[Tom Joad]

20. I just think we need to respect others. Overall, the West is

not respecting Arabs or Muslims. Or international law. Or human rights. Or democracy. The cartoons are just a tip of the iceberg. I think this is partly a response to Western hypocrisy.

Reporter: "Mr Gandhi, what do you
think of Western civilization?"
Mr.Gandhi: "I think it would be
a good idea!"

[Erika]

22. I am disgusted that we take lightly the cartoons of Mohammad

The right wingers would be in an outrage if the Jews or Arabs portrayed Christ in the same cartoon message.

But they see the western world mocking the Prophet of Allah and think it's free speech and funny?

[Colorado Blue]

29. You might want to see some of the cartoons published in

the Middle East, incredibly antisemitic stuff. They're horrible. So respect for one's fellows isn't a virtue that needs to be practiced only by the West.

Also, somebody on BBC pointed out the the burning of Danish flags actually is burning an image of the Christian cross. And incredibly beautiful 2,000 year old statues of the Buddha were blown up by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Calling for a "review" of the Holocaust and threatening to wipe entire nations off the map, as the president of Iran has done, isn't an expression of tolerance and respect either. Why wasn't there more outrage about this?

I think we could ALL use a little more tolerance and respect for our fellows.

Meanwhile, somebody on the BBC feedback forum mentioned that freedoms come with responsibility. I think that's true also. Freedom of the press doesn't mean open season on other people's feelings, but it is an incredibly important element of a democratic system.

[esbelt]

31. Still repeating the facts

It seems to me that nobody knows the story in the full length, here I repeat a summery.

but you have to know the stories behind the pictures.
Here in Denmark a writer had published a new book on the religion Islam, He failed to find any cartoonists to make
any pictures in his book, simply out of fear!
then the newspaper Jylland-posten took up the story of Salmon Rushdie etc. and asked the question if simple cartoon pictures would be censured out of fear in DK.
so they asked some professional cartoonists to make a picture and printed them out of respect of our free speech.
The paper have now made several apologizes and they have published that in fact we do not have free speech in DK
simply because they regret it and would never had don it if they had calculated the effect!

It is not the "art" or the outlook of the pictures that is the issue in DK, more than the fact that we do not have free speech when it comes to fear and religion!

[fakeshemp]

39. Luckily, none us here (presumably) are right wingers

So we should all be able to tolerate any religion - or any other ideology - being given a good roasting. No one had to buy the damn paper, and if some radical Muslims hadn't caused such a shitstorm about it (rather than just writing to the editor to complain, or organising a community boycott of the paper, as would have been sensible), hardly anyone outside Denmark would probably have ever seen these blasted cartoons.

[fujiyama]

25. I agree thatt theh US for one isn't respectng aanyone

but I don't think theh Muslim world respects western liberal values very much either.

I don't view theh entire Islamic world as helpless victims. I view hte neocons and fanaatical Muslims as two sides of the same coin.

[CJCRANE]

32. They're not the same - neocons are more dangerous.

Muslims terrorists are less organized, and though terrible, have killed fewer innocents and could more easily contained and dealt with.

NINETEEN hijackers attacked America (...funded by Bush political allies - but that's another story)
ONE HUNDRED FIFTY THOUSAND allied troops invaded Iraq

[smirkymonkey]

50. She's an idiot. What the hell happened to her?

I am strongly oppposed to this - I have no respect for symbols or flags - only freedom, something this country seems to be developing an increasing distaste for.

[Nikki Stone 1]

30. But these don't represent the rank and file

And it's the rank and file that have the numbers

[channa18]

38. Great post.

Very educational.

[fakeshemp]

40. Absolutely, we should. Great article.

[mogster]

43. I can agree with this

Any person taking on own religion for moderation is good, and will have my support.

One note, though:
> Did it ever occur to anyone why the Shia's have been more quiet in this debate than the Sunnis.

It did not occur to the people publishing these cartoons in Norway, all they see is a big black sack marked 'Muslims', where you put the bad people. I have followed their rethoric closely for more than four years.

On the last paragraph of this quote; don't forget that the Norw. publisher was a fundie too. And Bush already have earned a Europe now deadly frightened of TERRARISM, so he can save up some cred-juice for later use by distancing himself. After all, he's the peacemaker now, isn't he? Read the SOTU. He's up to no good, and this episode falls too much into his play to be a coincidence.

[Tigress DEM]

44. I support free speech, so ok, use words not violence to respond.

I still say that I don't have to "SUPPORT" their cartoons to be supporting free speech.

Stupid enough to draw a racist cartoon be prepared to take an onslaught of heat from people who care about other's of different race and beliefs even if we don't agree with them.

Sorry wrong headed behavior is wrong.

I tolerate stupid because it exists in all of us to some extent, but I call it when I see it.

[Yupster]

54. Be prepared t take the heat - yes

But it needs to be heat, not fire.

If anything goes beyond the law, we must all take sides against the lawbreakers no matter what offensive cartoon they were responding to.