Official Senate Committee Hearing - Electronic Surveillance - Thread 3

[Viva_La_Revolution]

Thread 1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333072#333197

Thread 2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333378

[wicket]

1. can someone please give me a quick run down of what's going on??

I'm cube-bound :(

[myrna minx]

7. Spector refused to swear in Gonzales. This caused a flap between

Feingold, Leahey and Spector. SPector claimed to have proxies, which he could not produce.

[liveoaktx]

106. VIDEO on CanOFun

Farcical start to hearings

Would this apply to the general public as well? I don't think I should have to swear in under oath if the AG doesn't have to.

[LiberalAndProud]

8. Gonazales giving opening statement.Defending Bush's position.

[LiberalAndProud]

16. authority to review w/o warrant satisfies requirement of 4th amendment

[LiberalAndProud]

27. .

FISA prohibits govt from unwarranted surveilance except by STATUTE

unforeseen challenges

Congress gave authority

FISA safety valve
radically <sic> new reality, Congress did 3 things when it passed
right to conduct surveilance
authorized all necessary & appropriate force

broadly worded authorization

[LiberalAndProud]

32. .

Other Presidents have used statutes such as the 4th Resolution

[emulatorloo]

9. streaming at CSPAN.org if you can get away with it

CSPAN1 -- Torture boy is spinning

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. Specter refuses to swear in rat bastard Gonzales, Gonzales says

he wouldn't mind being under oath because his answers will be the same. They took a roll call vote on whether he would be sworn in, Specter used repuke proxy votes, Feingold asked for proof of proxy votes, Specter didn't have proof and the hearing proceeded...onto the lies of Gonzales.:( That's it in a nutshell. Oh ya...Leahy gave one hell of a speech on why he SHOULD BE sworn in and that fell on deaf ears, of course,:grr:

[cali]

47. For you and the other cubed folks

First came a spat about swearing in the AG. Dems lost. Specter spoke laying out the ground rules. Leahy gave a strong statement, unambiguously accusing the admin of breaking the law. AG speaking now- terra, terra, terra, not domestic spying, terra surveillance. Congress gave bushco authority. terraists seeking to attack us from within. George Washington, Lincoln and Wilson did it too, and did it more broadly. Even if congress didn't mean to give the authority, well tough, they did it. The SC has interpreted the force resolution in Hamdi as giving the pres authority to detain enemy combatents. Constantly use FISA, critics don't understand FISA. Requirements of law can be "cumbersome and burdensome".

[rodeodance]

56. But most disgusting-Specter did not HAVE the proxies that Feingold

wanted to see. te he. made a fool of himself on national TV.

[LiberalAndProud]

2. authority provided by both constitution and statute

BULLSHIT!!!

[helderheid]

3. Thanks Viva!

:patriot:

I really am outta here now but will be back!

[LeftNYC]

4. Gonzo remember every sentence should begin with protect, include 9/11

and end with Al Qaeda

[Nimrod2005]

10. I really dislike this bastard ---- As much as I did Bownie!!!

Do you think there is a common reason here?

[emulatorloo]

15. much more dangerous than brownie, but he has an "inspiring personal

story," so that makes it all better per repubs

[Nimrod2005]

24. Would love - LOVE! to see Alberto Abu Ghraib Gonzales held at

Guatanamo...When these fucks are indicted and convicted of war crimes!!!

[burythehatchet]

85. with a generous sprinkling of warren terra

[Sydnie]

5. No Senator asked that it be discontinued? They didn't know you

were doing it, how could they ask you to stop? Christ on a crutch!


I guess now we should just assume that they are breaking all laws and ask them to stop breaking all laws every 45 days?

[rodeodance]

41. yes, AG/wh continues with this ruse--and the press lets it fly.

[EFerrari]

6. Inherent authority.

He's saying FISa can't infringe on the President's constitutional powers.

I think my head is going to explode.

[berner59]

17. Talking history of spying...

Washington...Lincoln...oh please!!!! Can't wait for the questions from Dems!!!!!!!!

[EFerrari]

28. I hope all you al Qaida are listening carefully.

Have you EVER seen anyone lie with such impunity?

[Cocoa]

20. the Constitution is clear

if the president does it, it's legal.

[Catrina]

119. Wow!! So lying about sex was legal after all!!

because 'the president did it'.

'If the president does it, it's legal' ~ my head is spinning. Weren't these the same morons who were screaming that 'no president is above the law?' just a few short years ago?

[JudyM]

117. I suppose the Bill of Rights can't infringe on *'s authority, either...

[LeftNYC]

11. I feel a Clinton reference coming up...nt

[ShortnFiery]

13. We're up to WWII ... yep, should be soon! n/t.

[kentuck]

12. Talking about all the presidents before FISA law passed ??

It doesn't matter what Woodrow Wilson did...

[LeftNYC]

19. you mean Bush can wiretap because

LINCOLN INTERCEPTED TELEGRAPHS?

[LeftNYC]

29. Al Qaeda = Goldstein

1984

[Sydnie]

21. Or Lincoln either. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! n/t

[Sydnie]

14. So, because they claim OTHERS broke the law, they should too?

Is that going to be their defense? We aren't any worse than anyone else has ever been?

Kiss my ass Gonzales!

[kentuck]

37. The FISA law was passed in 1978...

Because of the abuse of the Nixon Adminstration. It did not exist when Lincoln was President...

[stop the bleeding]

22. I don't know why I am even wasting my time on this n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. NOTHING will come of it. It really is a sham to appease the anti-spying

crowd. Now they can say, "we held a hearing and found no laws were broken." end of subject. Move on to next scandal.

[stop the bleeding]

74. I feel like I am going to be sick, If our liberties start to get eroded, I

don't know what I will do.:cry::cry::cry:

[Catchawave]

23. FISA's safety valve? Heh.

[ShortnFiery]

26. New meaning to the term, "Baffling us with Bull Shit!" n/t.

[Sydnie]

25. They consider wiretaping as "force"? WTF? n/t

[Catchawave]

31. Kennedy's rolling his eyes, can't wait for his Q's.....!

[spanone]

33. USA's #1 Attorney trying to convince USA it's OK to Break Law

This is certainly a fucked up nation. Instead of WORKING WITH CONGRESS this president has decided he's not even going to trust his own party, who by the way RUNS CONGRESS, and simply DISOBEY THE LAW. Now he has our NUMBER ONE ATTORNEY arguing that it's ok to be illegal, if you're president that is.

[LeftNYC]

36. Its like Tony Soprano teaching a class on business ethics...nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. He also has the blessing of the repukes in CONGRESS. Otherwise Specter

would have sworn his ass in. We are so screwed.:(

[rodeodance]

34. AG is talking of "inhentant' powers--this will be tricky for all.

[Catchawave]

39. Would that be spelled out in the IWR ?

Breaking laws to spy on Americans ?

[rodeodance]

40. Specter got caught trying to pull a fast on!--I want to see what the 'lib-

eral press says about that one!

[LiberalAndProud]

35. Fourth Resolution Against AlQuaida vs. Fourth Amendment ???

Is this really what I'm hearing?

[Sydnie]

44. I believe it is what we are all hearing. n/t

[democrank]

38. At least Democrats

fought hard to get Gonzales sworn in, they were just outnumbered....if you count the Republican votes for Republicans who were not even present! Gawd......

[rodeodance]

50. yes, but they have to fight public opinion---as WH seems to have

convinced many that snooping is ok. They forget -IS it legal.

[democrank]

42. Going off line to

call Specter`s office.

[Jeanette in FL]

Just got through to his office

It took a while to get through. Told them I was deeply offended that Spector would not put Gonzales under oath and that this just became another Republican Dog and Pony show.

Also Leahy's office and told them I was glad that Leahy insisted that Gonzales be put under oath. I told them that the Dems should walk out and let the Republicans hold their dog and pony show by themselves.

[LiberalAndProud]

43. Count "Fourth Resolution." 15? 50? times so far?

The FOURTH RESOLUTION.

[ShortnFiery]

49. I'm hearing "FORCE Resolution" but correct me if I'm wrong.

:shrug:

[LiberalAndProud]

55. I heard "4th Resolution". O'Liely heard "troops".

Mistakes happen.

:blush:

[LiberalAndProud]

60. final 3 words - War on Terror

[moondust]

45. Has Congress declared war?

War against whom? How long was I out?

[in_cog_ni_to]

52. NO. Congress has not declared war. The repukes try to use the IWR

as their declaration of war...WHICH IT IS NOT!

[Kber]

120. Serious question here

Against whom (what country (ies) did the IWR authorize force?

If it was Iraq, how does this justify wiretaping against other non-Iraqui enemies?

If it does (in Bush's mind) authorize force, actions or spying against other enemies, does he even need additional congressional approval for invading, say, Iran or Syria?

Where, legally, does it end?

[spanone]

46. One Question...Why did you BREAK THE LAW mr. president?

[LeftNYC]

51. At what point do those 2 gentlemen sitting behind the Torture king

start crying...? ala..Mrs. Alito...

[Pirate Smile]

54. I'm surprised his wife and kids aren't sitting back there so they

could start crying if anyone was mean to "daddy".

[KittyWampus]

64. PLEASE start a thread about that, really. The only thing missing from this

farce is Mrs. Gonzalez running from the rooom in tears.

And if our elected Dems were smart, they'd say just that on tv.

[kentuck]

53. Trust us. Would we lie ???

Uh.....yeah...

[Sydnie]

57. what other kind of intelligence does FISA cover? It's ok for other things

but HOT for Al Queda? WTF is that supposed to mean? Intelligence is intellegence. What else might they be looking for? We know it's not drugs because there haven't been any major drug busts since these bastards took office. This just boggles my mind!

[rodeodance]

61. Feingold must be on Specters shit list for making a fool of him Nat. TV.

[EFerrari]

58. "Our enemy is listening"

So am I, hermanito, and all I hear is BS.

:nuke:

[coffeenap]

59. "Our enemy is listening" No, our enemy is TALKING!! nt

[rodeodance]

65. hey, AG--Americans are listening and we are NOT the enemy!

[kentuck]

67. Bingo !

You got it ! Much more dangerous than al Qaeda.

[Surya Gayatri]

Al Queda Terra Al Queda Terra

Why did Judge Robertson resign from the FISA COURT? Gonzo doesn't know. SG

[librechik]

62. everything he mentioned is covered by FISA. Why the illegal stuff???

doesn't answer that.

[rodeodance]

105. AG sidestepped that question.

[Sydnie]

63. We can not drop the ball - we need to read that written statement

and parse what is different from what he said and what he wrote!


Note to self ....

[HootieMcBoob]

66. This is total BS

He's not under oath. He won't talk about anything of substance. Each member only gets only 10 minutes and Gonzo will eat up every minute with BS. This is worthless.

[spanone]

76. I find this whole scenario surreal.

Here is the Attorney General of the United States JUSTIFYING ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

[Surya Gayatri]

94. Truly a scene from Kafka...

I can't believe I'm hearing this! SG

[Stand and Fight]

68. This is a sham!

A mockery of our Constitution and our system of checks and balances. These crooks must be held accountable.

[LiberalAndProud]

69. Specter: FISA court

reasonable & constitutional.

Gonz: FISA should be commended.

[Rose Siding]

70. AG: "They're working on weekends, they're working at night"

in ans to why not have teams go to fisa court.

A variation of It's Hard Work. :grr:

[Rose Siding]

Says he doesn't know why fisa judge resigned!

Lie

[dweller]

71. is cspan working ?

getting 'server not found' and 'connection refused when attempting to contact'...messages.

?

dp

[Viva_La_Revolution]

79. It's probably overloaded... It happened during the Alito hearings too

you just have to keep trying

[berner59]

82. wow...AG is fumbling....

Can't seem to answer the question...why not bring this to FISA??? They don't want to...hmmm...WHAT ARE HIDING????

[Catchawave]

72. FISA court is useless on the WAR ON TERRA !!!!

[LiberalAndProud]

73. Specter is not getting answers. Will this piss him off?

I'd be pissed.

[Catchawave]

Only if they vote on it :)

[Skidmore]

80. He doesn't want answers. He wants power. He wants to keep

his chairmanship of the Judicial Committee. That's why he always just comes this close to doing the job right.

[EFerrari]

88. Bingo.

[Pirate Smile]

75. Glenn Greenwald's live blogging - response on not swearing in Alberto.

"Live blogging the NSA hearings

The logistics of live-blogging from the Committee room were too complicated, so I am live-blogging the hearings off-site. I may be able to do it from the Committee room itself for the afternoon session, but I'd rather have full blogging abilities outside of the room than be in the room.

I understood that Gonzales was going to be sworn in. Apparently, Specter decided that he did not want him to be. I think that's a good debate to begin with -- why are Republicans so eager to avoid putting Gonzales under oath ? He's testifying as a fact witness, and his prior statements at issue -- including his false assuarances to Sen. Feingold at his confirmation hearings -- were under oath, so this testimony should be, too.

* * * * *

Feingold is doing exactly what he should be doing - creating a hostile and confrontational atmosphere, rather than a boringly congenial one where the Democrats meekly accept everything (see the Alito hearings). Feingold has been seriously heroic on several of these issues, and it is excellent to see him continuing that right from the beginning at these hearings.

* * * *

As I said last night, if you have hope for Specter's independence and objectivity, just make it easy on yourself and give up those hopes and accept that he is going to be a shill for the Administration. If you are looking for Republican scrutiny, look to Brownback and, to a lesser extent, to Graham.

* * *

Of course Gonzales begins his Opening Statement by quoting Osama bin Laden and Zawahri. We used to quote Madison, Jefferson and Lincoln to decide what the principles of our Government are going to be. Now we quote Al Qaeda. The Administration wants Al Qaeda and its speeches to dictate the type of Government we have. It is the centerpiece of everything they do and say.

[Dawgs]

77. Gonzalez is blowing the first question.

This is going to be fun.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[LeftNYC]

81. He is sputtering nt

[Sydnie]

78. This is like Nancy's "just say no" program - only they are saying

"Just listen". It's a program not a mandate by the law!

[HootieMcBoob]

83. He won't even answer Specter

and he has a little smirk on his face.

[displacedtexan]

87. I noticed that.

He really wants to laugh at these proceedings, doesn't he?

[tgnyc]

84. Specter not letting Gonzo bullshit him. Not exactly grilling him, but

this is nothing like the "aren't you wonderful?" questioning you get during confirmation hearings. Specter actually wants answers to his actual questions.

[Catchawave]

89. Asked if they didn't use FISA because they didn't like "plan" !

[Surya Gayatri]

107. If he's so concerned about answers

why the hell didn't he swear the bastard in? SG

[LiberalAndProud]

86. I like the questions Specter is asking.

I want to know if FISA is not issuing warrant.

Gonzo is not very convincing, is he?

Specter: I ask you to reconsider your answer.

[rodeodance]

93. "Gonzales Answers Tough Questions on Spying"--yahoo story

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eavesdropping_congress&printer=1;_ylt=ArZAqpuMklN2mwzE3RH9rx2MwfIE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Gonzales Answers Tough Questions on Spying

By KATHERINE SHRADER, Associated Press Writer 9 minutes ago

The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee expressed skepticism Monday about the legality of President Bush's warrantless eavesdropping program and suggested it be reviewed by a special federal court.

Federal law "has a forceful and blanket prohibition against any electronic surveillance without a court order," said Sen. Arlen Specter (news, bio, voting record), R-Pa., as he opened a hearing on National Security Agency eavesdropping within the United States.

While the president claims he has the authority to order such surveillance to protect Americans from terrorist attacks, Specter said, "I am skeptical of that interpretation."

Monday's hearing into the NSA program got off to a rocky start when Democrats protested that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales should be given a sworn oath before testifying.
......

[EFerrari]

99. Wow. Yahoo is prescient.

:eyes:

[HootieMcBoob]

109. Gonzalez Doesn't Answer Tough Questions on Spying

That should be the headline

[EFerrari]

95. Scripted or at least, agreed upon.

Specter is full of it and he will not allow this hearing to serve its purpose.

[BlueEyedSon]

104. If he is honestly being tough, why no swearing-in?

[EFerrari]

113. As the Stomach Turns.

This is a farce.

[Sydnie]

90. why don't we know the names of these affiliated organizations?

Why is that so broad too? Just how many affiliates do they have? And, where did they file these papers to state their affiliation so we know that they are, in fact, affiliated?

They are playing 6 degrees of Al Queda here folks!

[tgnyc]

91. Specter: how can you assure us that you are ONLY listening to Al Qaeda?

Gonzo: We're sure. Trust us.

[qanda]

92. If there are Al Qaeda members or agents of Al Qaeda in America

Why haven't they been arrested?

[rodeodance]

97. from yahoo story above: "My concern is for peaceful Quakers . (Leahy)

Gonzales, who was not sworn in, told the committee he would voluntarily take the oath if the committee so desired. Either way, "my answers would be the same whether I was under oath or not," he said.

Specter raised the possibility that a special court set up by the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act might have to review the wiretapping policy.

Leahy, meanwhile, said that while al-Qaida terrorists should be monitored, Bush chose to illegally wiretap Americans' conversations without safeguards to protect civil liberties.

"My concern is for peaceful Quakers who are being spied upon, and other law-abiding Americans and babies and nuns who are placed on terrorist watch lists," Leahy said.

[ShortnFiery]

102. Translation - Gonzales Speak

"Narrowly Tailored Program" ---> Only those folks who THREATEN the Neo-Con Executive Branch in any, way shape or form. Hummmm?

[LiberalAndProud]

96. It seems apparent to me that Gonzo has no viable legal argument

NONE. Clearly.

He is squirming.

[tgnyc]

103. When a Republican can't dodge a Specter line of questioning, he

clearly has nothing going for him.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

98. Thread 4 is up!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333872

[Jeanette in FL]

100. I've got an advance copy of Hatch's questions to Gonzales

1. That is a beautiful tie, can you please tell the committee where you purchased it?

2. Can you please tell us how wonderful it is to work daily with President Bush?

3. I love your accent. Can you just speak some bullshit to me any bullshit will do?

[TexasLady]

112. LMAO!! n/t

[Stand and Fight]

118. Hilarious! Thanks for that! n/t

[Sydnie]

101. Ask Comey to come in and testify, then we might get some REAL answers! nt

[Skidmore]

108. Why does Ashcroft get to "consider" if he will testify?

Subpeona the jerk. Anyone who knows anything at all should be in front of this committee giving answers to the people.

[HereSince1628]

114. Because he hasn't been subpoened by the committee.

Specter is opposed to using subpoenas because of the obvious negative implications of that. Specters game is to look like he is conducting an oversight investigation, not have an actual investigation.

[HereSince1628]

116. Ah, there it is...The NSA has OTHER authority.

Wanna bet, the Administration was into this under a differently named program

[Lasher]

110. I've had enough, shutting this whitewash off (EOM)

[mod mom]

111. WTF Ashcroft has the ability to refuse to appear. Terror Czar has no

Objection (after pressed) on Ashcroft appearing.

[speedoo]

115. Leahy's gloves are off!

He just swept aside all the bullshit. Demanding answers on the timeline.