*****Could everyone please check your cities Annual Financial Report.*****

[AGENDA21]

Look for 2 sets of numbers

1/ Aggregate net worth

2/ Total gross annual income

The 2 financial reports you need cross check are "Comprehensive Annual Financial Report" and the "Budget" and see if these 2 sets of numbers match..thanks in advance.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I have no clue. Hope someone has an idea where to look.

[AGENDA21]

9. When someone does come up with the answer

please do check this for your own city.

[marmar]

2. www.census.gov...

In the income category of the American Fact Finder, I'm pretty sure you can find out those numbers by county, in this case New York county. I would assume there was an update for 2004.

[AGENDA21]

3. Ive had a look,dont seem to be able

to find it.

There's 2 annual financial reports..im just checking to see if these 2 set of numbers im asking for are the same in both reports.

[marmar]

5. I see what you mean...

I was only able to get 2000 stats.

[AGENDA21]

6. Where did you get the stats from?

The 2 annual financial reports im talking about are the 'budget' and 'Comprehensive Annual Financial Report' these figures should be the same in both reports...

[marmar]

7. Actually I just looked at your original post again...

I found per capita income, not total gross. Sorry, I misread your post.

[AGENDA21]

8. Ok..

If the 2 sets of figures are different in both reports...then there might be some fraud going on,which is very serious.Ive just picked new york as an example...pick your own city,and check these 2 reports and these sets of figures.

[donco6]

11. No they shouldn't.

The budget will never equal the figure in the CAFR. A budget is a plan for revenue and expenditure; the CAFR is actual. Unless you're REALLY REALLY good at reading a crystal ball . . .

[rug]

4. Take the Bronx and multiply by 100,000

[donco6]

10. Tell me more.

A budget is not the same as a CAFR. The CAFR is actual revenue and expenditures, budget is anticipated. I work with them all the time, but I don't know what you're getting at.

[AGENDA21]

12. Is it possible to have a

Budget Deficits/Shortfalls and have a Financial Surpluses At The Same Time?

[donco6]

13. Yes.

It's possible to *predict* a budget shortfall, then turn in an actual that is balanced because of budget cuts over the fiscal year. Happens all the time.

[AGENDA21]

14. Thats not what i meant

Can you declare a budget Deficit but still have a Financial Surpluse at the end of the fiscal year?

[donco6]

15. I'm saying emphatically YES.

A budget is a prediction of your revenue and expenditures for the coming year. It's usually put together months before the year end. Depending on what ACTUALLY happens during the ensuing fiscal year (we didn't have enough money, so we had to cut programs X, Y, and Z which then saved X million - or if a tax increase were passed BECAUSE of the projected budget deficit), you could easily wind up with a fund balance increase at the end of the fiscal year.

Honest, it happens all the time.

[AGENDA21]

16. Isnt there an actual budget report at the end of each

fiscal year?

[donco6]

17. That's the CAFR.

They are two totally separate things.

The comprehensive annual financial report is an audited statement of your financial standing at year end. It corrects for encumbrances and receivables and accrued earnings to reveal a snapshot of the entity's financial condition.

A budget is just a plan. It's not nearly as important as the CAFR. It's often used to make people aware of the impending financial crisis - hopefully in time to do something about it. There's just no way the budget can ever be 100% in line with the CAFR. Unless - as I said - you're really good at crystal ball reading.

Now, if the CAFR showed a negative fund balance at year end, when the budget showed a positive - THAT would be something to be alarmed about! And I suppose if the budget showed wildly low revenue that wasn't based on anything rational - that could be a problem. Some unscrupulous budget managers may do that in anticipation of tough union negotiations.

But you can't really fault a budget builder for making conservative projections. You have to anticipate lower earnings/revenues and higher expenditures. It's only being responsible.

[donco6]

18. If you REALLY want to check the validity of rev/exp numbers:

Focus on the CAFR. Check the back in the Statistical Section. There should be a section there that has the last 10 years of revenues and expenditures for the entity. THEN check the budget projections. Are the revenues artificially high/low compared to what has come in over the past years? For a large entity, they shouldn't change wildly. If the projected numbers for the coming year don't seem to align with the trend of actuals for the past 10 years, that might be somewhere to focus.

Sometimes entities come up with artificially low revenue numbers to garner support for tax increases, or to scare the union into settling for lower increases. Low projections can also be used to cut unpopular programs.

I don't know of too many savvy CFOs that budget high. It's way riskier, and doesn't come with many benefits.

[AGENDA21]

19. Do you have these 2 stats for you city?

1/ Aggregate net worth

2/ Total gross annual income

Are these stats actually mentioned in the end of year budget report?

[donco6]

21. You have to be careful with your terms.

There is no such thing as an "end of year *budget* report". Budgets are prepared *before* the fiscal year begins. Budgets are the plan for expenditure and estimation of revenue for the ensuing year.

What you're looking for is the figures from the comprehensive annual financial report which is prepared *after* the fiscal year ends. I have to stress this because they really are two very separate things.

Having said that, of these particular stats, probably only the total gross annual income would be located in the stats table. The aggregate net worth is expressed as "net assets" and would only be noted in each year's individual audit.

For Denver the net assets FY 2004 are: $2,394,475,000. These represent the excess of assets over liabilities (i.e., net).

The total gross annual income was $1,885,000,000.

Keep in mind, assets represent everything of value beyond a certain dollar threshold - usually $5,000. So some computers, buildings, vehicles, lots of things besides cash are included in this asset figure.

You'll usually find this information in the Management Discussion and Analysis section in the front of the audit.

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. 230 Million dollar gap for Detroit.

:hi: